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Old 01-15-2008, 01:13 AM
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Default mixed species tank

so i posted this tank a while back but i have since installed it in a local bar. IT contains a pair of imis a pair of azureus and a neonate amazon tree boa....i read some diet studies of amazons and i think i will be ok as far as predation goes....going on two weeks with the snake and so far so good. reproduction from both imis and azureus....sorry about the exposure on the wide shot but wanted to give you an idea of where it was situated.....i know there will be some bashing but i can take it thanks for looking
ben



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Old 01-15-2008, 02:06 AM
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Dude I totally like the idea! As long as the azureus don't bother the imis, lol and the boa doesn't eat them all. What size tank is it? Also what is the story behind the 'viv in a bar'? There has to be one right?

I can picture it now. A bunch of drunks staring in a viv trying to find the frogs. Real neat idea and its gotta raise awareness for the rain forest.
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:22 AM
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Not going to say anything on the mixed species tank other than that you're brave for posting this here! :wink:

Other than that the tank looks fantastic.
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:26 AM
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Ben knows what he's doing, he's been around for awhile. However, I would be cautious putting any snake in with frogs. I dont think it's worth it :shock:

You're a brave, brave man.
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:41 AM
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There are a lot of snakes that would be fine with frogs. For example adult Emerald tree boas are perfectly fine as they do not predate on frogs.

Ed
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:41 AM
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yeah i know it is kinda risky and it may be sacrificing some animal welfare for display impact, but hell over half the people going to the aquarium here in baltimore go to see captive dolphins jump around in a glorified swimming pool....it is neat to watch people walk in and see dart frogs for the first time in a place they would have never expected.....i have had some really great conversations about zoos and conservation and evolution and civilization because of this little terrarium, which is i guess why it is there in the first place. I think the arcade machines have gotten less quarters too
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:43 AM
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oh and i do hate to plug but if there are any baltimore folks that want to grab a beer and talk frogs google "the laughing pint" it is right off eastern in highlandtown
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Old 01-15-2008, 03:00 AM
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i dont think its such a bad idea as long as the tank is big enough. i doubt the azureus climb high enough to bother the imis, correct? is the snake CB? even if it is im sure the istinct of "bright colored frog=BAD" is still in there somewhere.

ive kept alot of mixed species from around here that have turned out fine, like 3 long toed salamanders(about 5 inches) with a northwestern salamander(8 inches) and they actually all huddled together when the slept
its all about thinking through what species, tank size, food and the amount of hiding spaces.

anyway enough rammbling for me. its a great looking tank! did it grow in for awhile or did you just plant it very heavily?
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Old 01-15-2008, 03:00 AM
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so i am at the bar right now (that is where i steal my internet from and just saw a plump perfect half grown imitator!!!! awesome..... i saw tad transport a couple months ago and now a perfect shiny baby....gonna try to get a shot...
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Old 01-15-2008, 03:33 AM
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:01 AM
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Wow, talk about a conversation piece.
Nice - Brilliant job!!!

Imi's look great.
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:03 AM
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That's too sweet! I wish it was local for me.
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:07 AM
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yeah california is kinda far the amazon is captive born my friend shane bred them (this was the ugly baby ) it was born on 12/12 so it is just over a month old
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:18 AM
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Ben, thats one of the coolest ideas i've ever seen (besides your compostium). Do you have to go there and feed them every couple days? Also, did you use double paned glass?
-mark
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Old 01-15-2008, 02:58 PM
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Very nice looking viv !
Did I see this at IAD last May ?
I think I saw this or the same looking but a little bit smaller one with the light on the side of front window at the event

Just curious what do you feed on that kind of snake ?
I have never had any snakes but seen people feeding a baby mouse or snake vendors at Rep show selling frozen ones
Hope it doesn't show interest in frog as food

Besides that I only worry about drunk guys banging on the tank to see what's in there :lol:
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Old 01-15-2008, 04:18 PM
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Could we please see another full tank shot as well as some other angles of the interior. thanks.
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Old 01-15-2008, 06:56 PM
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yeah i can get some more shots but probably wont be around there for another day to feed everybody. This is the same tank that was at IAD but it has since undergone some equipment overhauls, which will continue. My original blower fan burnt up while i was away and i didnt have a temp cutout and it scorched all the plants and killed a frog (the dangers of running 200 watts on a tiny system) I upgraded to two blowers so i have redundancy. I want to swap out the two 55 watt cfls that are mounted vertically in the front with some nice t5's which i think will actually throw about the same light because i had to compromise reflector efficiency fitting the cfl's in the front.....i actually built this tank originally with only front lighting but the hqi metal halides started to warp the acrylic no matter how much air i moved over them. Have you ever noticed how pretty a terrarium looks when you look down in them in the same direction as their light input? that was the idea behind front lighting. IT also helps with light drop out although it is hard to tell in the photos.
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Old 01-15-2008, 07:03 PM
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DUDE THIS IS SO WRONG!!!

Underage frogs in a bar, what were you thinking?!!!



P.S. I know Ben has a lot of experiance and personaly, I do not have a problem with his tank. It's just funny though, if it had not been someone like Ben (someone we all wish we could be, I know I do ) everyone would have ripped into him. Just a thought.

Good job Ben! You always have stunning work!
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Old 01-15-2008, 07:29 PM
 
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Please, please, pretty please do a pinball machine viv! You could keep the boa up where the scoreboard would be and the dart frogs could go on the bottom... oh! and the coco huts could go in place of the bumpers!
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:16 AM
 
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Nice tank, how big is it? I dont think i saw specs but i could just be blind.

Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
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Old 01-18-2008, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
theoretically yes. how much they will be willing to is a different story.
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Old 01-18-2008, 03:36 PM
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The most likely scenario would probably be egg piracy for them but since they have different colored eggs I don't think it's super likely... and in a tank like that they can definately stay away from each other (which is often the issue with mixed species tanks now allowing both species to have their niche and live away from each other) now stick a treefrog in that tank with the boa and then tell me it doens't eat frogs
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:01 PM
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What is a neonate amazon tree boa? I do a search and it comes up with the Emerald Tree Boa. Are they the same?
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:07 PM
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neonate = baby

amazon tree boa = Corallus hortulanus

emerald tree boa = Corallus caninus

ETBs and ATBs are pretty closely related, with the amazons being slimmer and having a huge variety of color in their clutches.
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:22 PM
 
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What a great idea! Thanks for sharing, and for being bold enough to post this idea here. Keep us posted
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:28 PM
 
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Viv looks awesome Ben. We should have taken a side trip so I could check out ...maybe next time.

-Brian
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Old 01-18-2008, 11:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymo
Quote:
Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
theoretically yes. how much they will be willing to is a different story.
Just to hijack (hopefully briefly) based on what criteria?

Ed
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Old 01-18-2008, 11:10 PM
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actually corey there is still an ebrecatta in there so far so good....found two baby imis so far....
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Old 01-18-2008, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymo
Quote:
Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
theoretically yes. how much they will be willing to is a different story.
I would actually lean more towards theoretically no. The genetics of it could get a bit muddy, but you can't just breed em together becuae they are both frogs. They have to be genetically compatable, have similar genomes, etc, etc. I would tend to believe that this is not the case....

On a separate note... some people seem to be SOOO surprised that Ben is not getting ripped for a mixed species tank. The key here is experience. This isn't his first frogs (like it is most that are fanatical about wanting to mix), he understands niches and tank design to make them, and has the knowledge to understand what he's looking for to give clues that something might be going wrong. There is a huge difference between this tank and frogger than the average "I want to mix this with this" question that typically gets torn apart.
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Old 01-19-2008, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sbreland
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymo
Quote:
Can azureus and imitators successfully mate? I know the size difference exists but is it even possible?
theoretically yes. how much they will be willing to is a different story.
I would actually lean more towards theoretically no. The genetics of it could get a bit muddy, but you can't just breed em together becuae they are both frogs. They have to be genetically compatable, have similar genomes, etc, etc. I would tend to believe that this is not the case....
.
Not to mention, the not inconsiderable differences in reproductive behaviors......

Ed
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Old 01-19-2008, 01:41 AM
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So hortulanus, even as babies, don't predate on frogs? I guess if they do they'd prefer large treefrogs if anything.
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:03 AM
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I would assume that being from the Amazon region especially these snakes would probably be well aware that bright colours = bad meal (even for CB)...
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Old 01-19-2008, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew__
I would assume that being from the Amazon region especially these snakes would probably be well aware that bright colours = bad meal (even for CB)...
If I remember correctly it is thought that snakes have very poor color vision so I would be hesitant to characterize the color as a reason the snakes avoid predating on the frogs.

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Old 01-19-2008, 05:02 AM
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Fair enough. Still though, I'm sure the snakes would have some way of recognizing that the frogs are dangerous, even if not strictly colour based.
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Old 01-19-2008, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeroKero
neonate = baby

amazon tree boa = Corallus hortulanus

emerald tree boa = Corallus caninus

ETBs and ATBs are pretty closely related, with the amazons being slimmer and having a huge variety of color in their clutches.
Thanks.
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Old 01-19-2008, 11:44 PM
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there are a couple good diet studies of amazons and i think of all the animals they looked at there was one possible amphibian eaten. For the mainland varieties it was something like 98% of their diet was warm blooded prey. The island varieties also consumed a good amount of small lizards as juvies. I know this is a mixed species tank and even though it is working so far there is of course a risk involved and i still discourage the majority of people from trying to mix any species. I prefer not to but to compete with pac man and pic hunt it was in my eyes warranted. All of my tanks at home have no animals in them at all (unless you look very closely ) but it takes a while to appreciate watching plants growing which is something the average bar patron can not be expected to do.
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew__
Fair enough. Still though, I'm sure the snakes would have some way of recognizing that the frogs are dangerous, even if not strictly colour based.
Yes. scent.

Ed
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Old 01-20-2008, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew__
Fair enough. Still though, I'm sure the snakes would have some way of recognizing that the frogs are dangerous, even if not strictly colour based.
Yes. scent.

Ed
And diet specialization.
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Old 01-20-2008, 05:36 AM
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Very cool...

Wonder if I can talk a local tavern into this?
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Old 01-20-2008, 05:46 PM
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dude are you talking smack about the aquarium????? thats messed up ben. so do the fruit flies like the bar??? i will see you friday.
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