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-   Mantella (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/mantella/)
-   -   Mantellas in general (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/mantella/82948-mantellas-general.html)

Detrick105 05-21-2012 05:23 PM

Mantellas in general
 
Hello Everyone,
Ok, I believe that anyone that has mantellas, should be breeding them! If I remember correctly, about 90% of Madagascar's forests are already gone... It really surprises me, how everyone is all about dart frogs and saving the South American rain forest, but what about Madagascar and mantellas? I know there are a few people that actually care about the plight of the mantella...
Overlooked? Under-appreciated?
I don't know, it just seems like nobody gives a s*** about mantellas, it's aaaalllllllll about darts & South America. The way I see it, is Madagascar & the mantellas face GREATER risks of becoming lost to us in the hobby... A Chaotic rant...
Steve

Mantella Frogs
Devin Edmonds | Facebook

Baltimore Bryan 05-21-2012 08:18 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
I agree that we should be trying to breed them... my female milotympanum looks gravid so hopefully she will lay another clutch soon! There are people here that are very dedicated to breeding the Mantella species, which is good.
Bryan

msv5010 05-21-2012 08:30 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
I think part of the problem for the average person is availability. I have been looking for Golden Mantellas for a while, and while there are a few available here and there, they are not nearly as widely available as dart frogs. I'd love to start a breeding group of Golden Mantellas, but I just haven't found the right opportunity.

Peter Keane 05-21-2012 08:43 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
and with the recent discoveries in Madagascar and with 90% of the rainforest gone, can you imagine how many species we lost without a glimpse?

Peter

Detrick105 05-21-2012 10:06 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Hello Everyone,

I feel that more people need to be aware of the problems mantellas (and other wildlife in Madagascar) are facing. Granted, South American frogs (& other animals) are faced with their own issues, and of course even in our own backyard native species are faced with problems.
But Madagascar seems to be forgotten, it seems that everyone cares about darts. I know there are people out there that appreciate mantellas (I am not new around here,lol), and are working hard to breed them, my hats off to you!
I just feel that they need a little attention too, and should not be forgotten about, look at all the frog species in general that have come and gone, and for the most part lost to the hobby.
Steve

eLisborg 05-21-2012 10:51 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Derek,

I agree with you wholeheartedly that Madagascar should be a focus for conservation due to it's current state and high endemism. It is important to consider however, that most people come into the hobby as pet owners and not conservationists, so even if a species offers value as a conservation project, it may not satisfy the preferences of the individual. For example, when a person picks out a frog many first consider it's aesthetics, behavior, accessibility etc. and not it's status in the wild. That is a somewhat different topic, but it applies to what you are saying. If we chose our animals based on the umbrella need for "conservation action" then we should be choosing not only amphibians but insects, fish, coral etc. as there are many groups of organisms facing environmental threats. The dart frog hobby is a niche hobby and motivating involvement with other groups of animals can be difficult. I have kept a few species of Mantellas as well as darts, and they are very different animals. Anticipating equivalent interest from keepers of dart frogs in an unrelated, maybe similar looking, group of amphibians can become somewhat of an abstract assumption. I hope this helps,

Finchfrogs15 05-21-2012 11:03 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
i dont mean to be off subject, if i am i apologize. But im interested in getting a group of mantella baroni or madagascariensis. i think they are awesome frogs and i would love to breed them. does anybody know where i could get a sexed group of these frogs?

thanks

eLisborg 05-22-2012 12:38 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Try contacting rainfrog on this board.

skylsdale 05-22-2012 03:01 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltimore Bryan (Post 733448)
I agree that we should be trying to breed them... my female milotympanum looks gravid so hopefully she will lay another clutch soon!

Just to reiterate the importance of this: I have been looking on and off for CB milotympanum for over 3 years now...but to no avail.

Rain_Frog 05-22-2012 03:58 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
As much as I am pro-breeding mantellas in captivity, it doesn't really protect the actual habitat, and with our current technology and understanding, we cannot release our animals back into the wild.

Also, how many people have kept any of their frogs for more than five years? My ebenaui are over 8 years old, mads over 6, tincs over 6, anthonyi 8+, and firebellied toads 9-10.

Detrick105 05-22-2012 04:37 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
"As much as I am pro-breeding mantellas in captivity, it doesn't really protect the actual habitat, and with our current technology and understanding, we cannot release our animals back into the wild."

But, by breeding them, we can hopefully reduce the demand for wild caught, plus hopefully have a sustainable source for cb.
Steve

jacobi 05-22-2012 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Detrick105 (Post 733681)
But, by breeding them, we can hopefully reduce the demand for wild caught, plus hopefully have a sustainable source for cb.
Steve

That'd be nice... do you breed them?

Detrick105 05-22-2012 05:06 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Yes, I do.

stemcellular 05-22-2012 05:12 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by skylsdale (Post 733644)
Just to reiterate the importance of this: I have been looking on and off for CB milotympanum for over 3 years now...but to no avail.

This is the year Ron, lots of little ones swimming around at the moment... :)

SutorS 05-22-2012 05:39 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
there are some pretty major conservation projects going on all over Madagascar regarding mantellas and other frogs. Those Malagasy folks who do work in conservation and herpetology all seem very focused on mantellas. Maybe we shouldn't be focusing on mantellas, wild collection, or even frogs at all first, but the conservation of the humid forests they inhabit. I am sure there are people here on this board who would chime in who know far more about the current efforts out there

skylsdale 05-22-2012 06:15 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Not all of the work is Mantella-centric: TWI Newsletter (April 2012)

stemcellular 05-22-2012 07:31 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Detrick105 (Post 733681)
"As much as I am pro-breeding mantellas in captivity, it doesn't really protect the actual habitat, and with our current technology and understanding, we cannot release our animals back into the wild."

But, by breeding them, we can hopefully reduce the demand for wild caught, plus hopefully have a sustainable source for cb.
Steve

I wish I could agree but I don't think CB available frogs impacts the importation of WC ones. Looks at D. auratus and other species. Sadly, Mantella sp. are often imported as filler for more desirable herps.

Now having said that, I 100% support all efforts to captive breed Mantella sp. because (1) they may all soon be gone, and (2) I think there is a benefit in learning captive husbandry methods that could be translated to in situ management (essentially what Devin is working on in Mad).

Good thread.

punctata 05-22-2012 08:25 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Yes Awesome Thread. Mantellas are amazing frogs. I can not wait until I get a place of my own because Mantellas are what I want to work with so badly along with tree frogs. Right now I am learning with my leucs, tricolors, and B&G's before I venture into mantellas. Just wish I had more space.

Devin Edmonds 05-22-2012 08:52 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
I guess there are two parts of this discussion here 1) why aren't mantellas more popular with hobbyists? and 2) the role the hobby can play regarding the conservation of mantellas or Madagascar in general

Dendrobatids are widely available, familiar, charismatic, and many species are easily bred. Mantellas on the other hand are mostly seasonally available and have always had a reputation as "the poor man's dart frog". They also take a little more work to breed than the most common Dendrobatids you see around all the time, usually needing to be kept in large male-heavy groups and given plenty of seasonal variation in environmental conditions, and they can be kind of shy.

Mantellas also don't come with the status a private breeder gains by having the rarest or most sought-after Dendrobatid, they're just not as desirable. In my opinion though, they rank right up there with any of the more popular dart frogs, but this is true for a lot of other over-looked species as well. So if you keep mantellas, get them breeding by all means - big (6-12 frogs) male-biased groups, dry and cool them off a few months each year, feed a varied diet, etc. - to help ensure there is a source of captive-bred mantellas available for those who want to keep them in the future!

But what can you as a private breeder do to help the plight of wild mantellas and the forests of Madagascar in general?

Well, as has already been pointed out, breeding frogs in your basement doesn't do much. Probably the easiest action to take is with the profit you can make from selling your captive-bred offspring - get it into the hands of organizations which are working in Madagascar. Alternatively or in addition to, buy frogs from places which support conservation projects, i.e. Understory Enterprises.

Mitsinjo (Association Mitsinjo | Community and Environmental Wellbeing | Madagascar), the community-run conservation organization I work for in Andasibe, is one of dozens of conservation organizations working in-country to help conserve the habitat of mantellas.

There is also a national strategy for the conservation of Mantella aurantiaca being implemented by Madagasikara Voakajy (Our Current Projects - Madagasikara Voakajy), as well as a conservation strategy established for Mantella cowani which was put together by several organizations including Man and the Environment (Man and the Environment (MATE)) and Conservation International (Home - Conservation International)

Probably the best resource for hobbyists to stay up to date on amphibian conservation in Madagascar is Sahonagasy.org: Home which is the website of the IUCN Amphibian Specialist Group of Madagascar.

Less direct action but much more important to conservation in Madagascar is the lifestyle you live. Do you have or purchase anything made with stainless steel? How about rechargeable nickel-metal hydride batteries? 70% of the world's nickel will be coming from a mining operation that will be clearing forest, including breeding sites of Mantella aurantiaca. Do you buy jewelry? How about sapphires? Mantella expectata and Scaphiophryne gottlebei habitat is found next to Madagascar's largest sapphire mine. What about exotic hardwoods? A nice palisander desk or rosewood guitar? Everything you have comes from some place, is made out of something, and the less we use and the less we buy, the better off frogs are.

hypostatic 05-23-2012 02:13 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Devin Edmonds (Post 733767)
But what can you as a private breeder do to help the plight of wild mantellas and the forests of Madagascar in general?

Well, as has already been pointed out, breeding frogs in your basement doesn't do much. Probably the easiest action to take is with the profit you can make from selling your captive-bred offspring - get it into the hands of organizations which are working in Madagascar.

This is something I aspire to do when/if my frogs breed, and something I hope everyone else on the boards will do if they care about the conservation of flora/fauna.

jbherpin 05-23-2012 02:54 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
This is a wonderful thread, and the more we talk about this, the more people can be influenced and motivated. I, for one, place a great importance on the captive management of Mantellas. As others have said, the forests are being exploited. It is up to institutions and hobbiests to ensure the Mantellas are not lost entirely with the habitats of Madagascar.

Thanks Steve...

JBear

Detrick105 05-23-2012 03:47 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Just trying to shed some light on the plight mantellas face.
Steve

jkooiman 05-23-2012 04:28 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
I think it would be cool if Madagascar shut down, for good...for real, though that makes me a hypocrite, i guess. ( I've been buying WC annually it seems)JVK
Would be cool nonetheless:)

stemcellular 05-23-2012 04:46 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Well, i agree and disagree. The problem is that habitat destruction is the worst threat to Mantella sp. So while the pet trade kills many the Mad economy is what is dooming them.

frograck 05-23-2012 12:33 PM

Posting pictures of your mantella and "talking them up" on the boards goes a long way to spark people's interest in them and increase their popularity. Thus creating a market for captive born mantella.

SutorS 05-23-2012 01:19 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
@skylsdale: you're absolutely right, I misspoke. What I meant was that herp specialists are aware of the plight of the Mantella, not that the work was all Mantella oriented

I was lucky enough to travel to Andasibe, where I was hoping to check out some of Mitsinjo's work! Due to an emergency, I had to leave after only a day - but did run into a young lady who worked there and at least got filled with some knowledge about the work being done. It's a great thing...

Newt1 05-23-2012 03:47 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Thanks to Devin E. for info on why the habitat destruction is going on.

Rain_Frog 05-23-2012 04:00 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
ecotourism would help save habitat for madagascar.

jacobi 05-23-2012 04:12 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain_Frog (Post 734000)
ecotourism would help save habitat for madagascar.

Yeah that'd be fantastic, but it boils down to $$$... would the ecotourism replace the millions of dollars from the mining and logging operations?

Rain_Frog 05-23-2012 04:38 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Another option is rainforest certified agriculture-- shade coffee, bananas, etc.

Viridis are known to live on fruit plantations, eating drosophila and beetles from fallen fruit. I think O. pumilio also colonize banana plantations.

Malagasy practice slash and burn agriculture, so this would be a major improvement.

Detrick105 05-23-2012 04:51 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
The big thing is... getting the natives to go that route...

So, in the mean time, breed your mantellas! :P

Steve

skylsdale 05-23-2012 05:19 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain_Frog (Post 734011)
Malagasy practice slash and burn agriculture...

As compared to the more refined American practice of clear-cut bulldozing. ;)

Newt1 05-23-2012 06:12 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Facebook
I think people that like Mantellas should check this out
all so we can have stainless steel

Rain_Frog 05-23-2012 07:18 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
90% of Madagascar's forests may be gone, but I believe that only 7% of America's forest remain.

That doesn't take into account what has happened to most of the natural prairie and wetlands.

Detrick105 05-23-2012 08:48 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Yes, right here in America, we definitely have our own issues, that's for sure.

Ed 05-23-2012 09:56 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain_Frog (Post 734058)
90% of Madagascar's forests may be gone, but I believe that only 7% of America's forest remain.

That doesn't take into account what has happened to most of the natural prairie and wetlands.


If I remember correctly, the figure used for American forests is for old growth forests. The amount that has regenerated is much much higher.. With only about 28% remaining as primary forest. Many of the states that we consider to be heavily forested (West Virginia for example) were virtually deforested during the late 1880s and early 1990s and have since regenerated.....

Ed

eLisborg 05-23-2012 10:30 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Detrick105 (Post 734016)
The big thing is... getting the natives to go that route...

The "natives"- the Malagas people, they're not exactly rich in material wealth..sure their practices could be better but a big problem there is American, European, Asian, companies coming in and funding the projects that cause a lot of environmental damage. In the case of the nickel mining in M. aurantiaca habitat, itís not a company from Madagascar but from Canada. (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/arti...by-end-of-year) The people they hire to actually do the physical mining are Malagas but the point is- that is not where the funding is coming from. 5.5 billion US dollars- all coming from out of country.

This article is old, but you can see that a lot of the illegally logged trees are leaving the country-there are huge markets in China especially for rosewood, polysander etc. So yes, there are issues in country contributing to the problem but there are a lot of forces at work; other countries mining, purchase of illegally obtained trees, endangered species etc.
Rosewood trees face extinction amid Madagascar's chaos

LarryLee 05-23-2012 11:52 PM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
i really like the madasgascarii(?? Spelling) petco has a pair of them, one was shiny andthe other was dry looking, wanted to buy them to save their lives but, afraid if one didnt make it I would have hard time finding any more..
beside the chances of getting healthy specimens are much better here..
Larry

oddlot 05-24-2012 01:01 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Another good way to help out is to make sure you recycle any stainless steel or batteries.Even if you don't scrap metals someone would be happy to do it for you.The more metals recycled and not making it to the landfill will create less demand for mined ores.Unfortunately there will always be a demand for them,but every little bit helps!

On another note my golds have been calling up a storm and I have a female that is so fat she is going to pop,so hopefully soon.

Ray please put me on the list for a group of mylos :D

Lou

jeeperrs 05-24-2012 01:07 AM

Re: Mantellas in general
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jacobi (Post 734007)
Yeah that'd be fantastic, but it boils down to $$$... would the ecotourism replace the millions of dollars from the mining and logging operations?

I remember saying money is what motivates most people in the hobby. Many people disagreed. However, money will always motivate what frog is bought and breed, just like money will dictate what animal goes extinct and what lives. I find it quite sad.


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