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  • 2 Post By fishingguy12345
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Old 06-20-2020, 05:14 AM
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Default How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

Itís nowhere near done, but Iím hoping to add ficus quercifolia and rabbits foot ferns to the background, baby tears, and wandering jew. I might also add duckweed to the shallow (half inch at most, probably shallower) pond, and maybe even propagate some pothos in it. I also need to get some more cork bark. Current plants are lemon button fern, which probably wonít survive but weíll see, and a fittonia. My LEDs will be here in two days, just using a UVB light right now so that it looks nice. Iím sure my ball python wonít miss it for a day.

Substrate is a mix of one part coconut coir, one part orchid bark, one part sphagnum moss, a half to three quarter part crushed charcoal, and a whole bunch of crushed leaf litter. Sprinkled a layer of crushed and whole oak leaf litter on top. Thereís a charcoal layer above the drainage layer.

A note on the background- why do people even use spray foam anymore? I wish I had always known about the gorilla glue method, lol.

Thoughts on the plants? Are there any specific ones that do great, and have I listed any that will probably just drop dead?

Are there any species of millipedes that could work well? At its deepest there are 4 inches of substrate and 1 inch at its thinnest, so Iím not sure.

Is there anything I absolutely should include in a mantella enclosure that most people donít think about? I wonít be able to purchase any frogs until 6 months from now.

Thanks!





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Old 06-20-2020, 05:44 AM
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Default How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

I forgot to mention, this is a 10 gallon, and I plan on purchasing 2 frogs. For future reference, would 3 frogs in a 10 gallon be pushing it? Iíve seen mixed responses.


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Old 06-20-2020, 11:14 AM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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Originally Posted by TechnoCheese View Post
I forgot to mention, this is a 10 gallon, and I plan on purchasing 2 frogs. For future reference, would 3 frogs in a 10 gallon be pushing it? Iíve seen mixed responses.


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Personal opinion, take it for what it's worth, there's not a lot of floorspace in that tank , the tank is small to begin with (10 gallons) and in my opinion your design and hardscape have taken up a bunch of useable floorspace for the frogs and replaced it with logs they may never want to get on and a water feature that does no good for the frogs.
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Old 06-20-2020, 01:34 PM
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Aesthetically I think it looks good. The plants you have chosen should be no issue. The wandering jew, ficus and pothos will get out of hand quickly especially in a 10 gal tank, so constant pruning is a must.

As for 2 mantellas, honestly I wouldn't even put 1 in a 10 gal tank, especially with limited floor space, but that's just my opinion.

One other note, since you are still in the setting up stage you may want to reconsider the idea of gravel. How are you going to drain it? Your excess water will just sit in it and wick back up into your substrate which will keep it wet all the time.

Your aesthetics, as I said before is pleasing to my eyes, the water feature is not necessary, but I am not going to beat that dead horse, poor thing has been beat many times on this forum and will continue to suffer. 😞 I know you already put in the work, but maybe think about a 20gal for A mantella. It's more work to transfer, but it will be better for the frog.

You asked, I answered. Don't let any comment discourage you, it's all a learning process. Best of luck my fellow Texan!
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:05 PM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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Originally Posted by Moxie View Post
Aesthetically I think it looks good. The plants you have chosen should be no issue. The wandering jew, ficus and pothos will get out of hand quickly especially in a 10 gal tank, so constant pruning is a must.

As for 2 mantellas, honestly I wouldn't even put 1 in a 10 gal tank, especially with limited floor space, but that's just my opinion.

One other note, since you are still in the setting up stage you may want to reconsider the idea of gravel. How are you going to drain it? Your excess water will just sit in it and wick back up into your substrate which will keep it wet all the time.

Your aesthetics, as I said before is pleasing to my eyes, the water feature is not necessary, but I am not going to beat that dead horse, poor thing has been beat many times on this forum and will continue to suffer. 😞 I know you already put in the work, but maybe think about a 20gal for A mantella. It's more work to transfer, but it will be better for the frog.

You asked, I answered. Don't let any comment discourage you, it's all a learning process. Best of luck my fellow Texan!

Thatís just the thing about the pond, it offers me an easy outlet to drain the gravel
Would it really be considered a water feature? I just think of it as a build in water bowl, lol.

Thanks!


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Old 06-20-2020, 02:09 PM
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Default How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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Originally Posted by fishingguy12345 View Post
Personal opinion, take it for what it's worth, there's not a lot of floorspace in that tank , the tank is small to begin with (10 gallons) and in my opinion your design and hardscape have taken up a bunch of useable floorspace for the frogs and replaced it with logs they may never want to get on and a water feature that does no good for the frogs.

How would one set up an enclosure in a way that offers more floorspace? None of it actually covers up the substrate, itís still an uninterrupted sloped plain, itís just all attached to the background and hovering above except for about 2 square inches in total where the drift wood dies make contact. Iím also going to be adding more cork bark, which I assume could add more surface area?


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Old 06-20-2020, 02:44 PM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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Originally Posted by TechnoCheese View Post
How would one set up an enclosure in a way that offers more floorspace? None of it actually covers up the substrate, itís still an uninterrupted sloped plain, itís just all attached to the background and hovering above except for about 2 square inches in total where the drift wood dies make contact. Iím also going to be adding more cork bark, which I assume could add more surface area?


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I'm my (somewhat limited) experience, frogs in a tank will avoid standing on wet wood, wet substrate, etc. Once you start misting the tank to get the frogs the humidity they need, you'll likely notice that the main log is constantly wet, and won't be used much by the frogs if they can avoid it. Using wood to cover the substrate, doesn't give the frogs more floorspace, UNLESS you're putting the wood on an angle so that there's floorspace underneath it and on top of it. (This is going to be hard to do in a ten gallon tank)
Here's an example of what I mean in my 36x18x18" tank.

The plants you're adding also, in my experience, aren't ones that frogs will enjoy climbing on.

Your water feature/pond takes up more valuable floorspace while not providing any tangible benefit to the frogs. The way it's setup with the substrate leading right to the water level is going to cause a lot of water to wick up into the substrate making a wet, smelly mess.

Your design is very visually appealing, better then what I can do, but in my opinion this setup isn't going to be great for frogs.
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:45 PM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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Originally Posted by TechnoCheese View Post
How would one set up an enclosure in a way that offers more floorspace? None of it actually covers up the substrate, itís still an uninterrupted sloped plain, itís just all attached to the background and hovering above except for about 2 square inches in total where the drift wood dies make contact. Iím also going to be adding more cork bark, which I assume could add more surface area?


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One easy way to offer more floor space is to fill in your pond. The best way to deal with your need to drain the substrate is through a bulkhead drilled through the glass. Some folks are skittish about drilling glass so the accepted method in that case is to take a piece of pvc pipe with a cap and bury it so the end with the cap (removable cap) is sticking a little above the substrate. You cover up the end sticking up with a rock or wood or plant etc and then when you need to drain it you pull the cap, put your siphon into the pipe and drain to your desired level.

If you search the forums you will find a lot of folks talking about minimum sizes of tanks etc. The bottom line from these discussions is there is no minimum/maximum/ideal size of tank. The goal is always to keep the frogs happy and healthy. Frogs will adapt to most spaces over time, but the balance is to figure out what maximizes frog health and well being with the logistical realities of frog ownership. Your frogs are going to spend their whole life in this space, if you satisfied with that then no one telling you otherwise on the internet is going to change a thing. Generally folks here trend to giving larger spaces then 10 gallons to most species of frogs. So when you ask about putting multiple medium sized frogs into a 10 gallon enclosure you will definitely have folks telling you not to do it.

When you throw in a water feature (which your pond definitely qualifies for) you will have even more folks telling you not to do it.

Not only does it take away terrestrial space from your frogs but frankly it only looks good at the start. After that it will discolor, bugs will down in it, and something like your pond will get weird scum on the surface which frankly will reoccur after every water change. But /shrug its your tank and like I said no one ever convinced anyone of anything on the internet they did not want to do.
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Old 06-20-2020, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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One easy way to offer more floor space is to fill in your pond. The best way to deal with your need to drain the substrate is through a bulkhead drilled through the glass. Some folks are skittish about drilling glass so the accepted method in that case is to take a piece of pvc pipe with a cap and bury it so the end with the cap (removable cap) is sticking a little above the substrate. You cover up the end sticking up with a rock or wood or plant etc and then when you need to drain it you pull the cap, put your siphon into the pipe and drain to your desired level.

If you search the forums you will find a lot of folks talking about minimum sizes of tanks etc. The bottom line from these discussions is there is no minimum/maximum/ideal size of tank. The goal is always to keep the frogs happy and healthy. Frogs will adapt to most spaces over time, but the balance is to figure out what maximizes frog health and well being with the logistical realities of frog ownership. Your frogs are going to spend their whole life in this space, if you satisfied with that then no one telling you otherwise on the internet is going to change a thing. Generally folks here trend to giving larger spaces then 10 gallons to most species of frogs. So when you ask about putting multiple medium sized frogs into a 10 gallon enclosure you will definitely have folks telling you not to do it.

When you throw in a water feature (which your pond definitely qualifies for) you will have even more folks telling you not to do it.

Not only does it take away terrestrial space from your frogs but frankly it only looks good at the start. After that it will discolor, bugs will down in it, and something like your pond will get weird scum on the surface which frankly will reoccur after every water change. But /shrug its your tank and like I said no one ever convinced anyone of anything on the internet they did not want to do.

Thank you! Iím sure I probably will move them up to a 20 gallon eventually (who can resist the excuse to build another terrarium?), and I think I definitely will fill in the pond.


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Old 06-20-2020, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fishingguy12345 View Post
I'm my (somewhat limited) experience, frogs in a tank will avoid standing on wet wood, wet substrate, etc. Once you start misting the tank to get the frogs the humidity they need, you'll likely notice that the main log is constantly wet, and won't be used much by the frogs if they can avoid it. Using wood to cover the substrate, doesn't give the frogs more floorspace, UNLESS you're putting the wood on an angle so that there's floorspace underneath it and on top of it. (This is going to be hard to do in a ten gallon tank)
Here's an example of what I mean in my 36x18x18" tank.

The plants you're adding also, in my experience, aren't ones that frogs will enjoy climbing on.

Your water feature/pond takes up more valuable floorspace while not providing any tangible benefit to the frogs. The way it's setup with the substrate leading right to the water level is going to cause a lot of water to wick up into the substrate making a wet, smelly mess.

Your design is very visually appealing, better then what I can do, but in my opinion this setup isn't going to be great for frogs.

Thanks! Iíll take this into consideration, and definitely fill in the pond.


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Old 06-20-2020, 03:52 PM
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A little better?



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Old 06-20-2020, 04:10 PM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

I had shallow 'water features' with mantella sp.

These were not integrated with drainage layers but a graduated pool constructed to be completely emptied with a siphon and replaced with fresh, dechlorinated water. The schedule for replacing all water in the dept, was clinically strict.

If water features are used - studding the pool with stones that break the surface will make the pond usable ie; enriched-walkable.

New ppl in train would assume I used stone to jut the water surface to prevent drowning but it was actually to turn it into usable space. They would walk over, pause on, seat osmotically. Same strategy also used with a fair number of small reptiles as an enrichment/hydrate encourage.

My water features were PIA. They were constantly monitored and kept clean.

Water features can be biologically risky. But they can be made more walkable.
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Old 06-20-2020, 04:11 PM
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I had shallow 'water features' with mantella sp.

These were not integrated with drainage layers but a graduated pool constructed to be completely emptied with a siphon and replaced with fresh, dechlorinated water. The schedule for replacing all water in the dept, was clinically strict.

If water features are used - studding the pool with stones that break the surface will make the pond usable ie; enriched-walkable.

New ppl in train would assume I used stone to jut the water surface to prevent drowning but it was actually to turn it into usable space. They would walk over, pause on, seat osmotically. Same strategy also used with a fair number of small reptiles as an enrichment/hydrate encourage.

My water features were PIA. They were constantly monitored and kept clean.

Water features can be biologically risky. But they can be made more walkable.

Thank you! Iíll keep this in mind in the future


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Old 06-20-2020, 05:08 PM
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FYI if you want to eventually breed them, you will need water.

Also, whatís the gorilla glue method?
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Old 06-20-2020, 05:14 PM
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Default How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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FYI if you want to eventually breed them, you will need water.

Also, whatís the gorilla glue method?

I donít have any wish to breed them currently, but maybe some day with a nice big tank and a sizable group.

The gorilla glue method is just about the best thing known to mankind, Iíve discovered. Since gorilla glue is essentially just polyurethane, the same as spray foam, itís quite literally the definition of just add water. Get the glass a little damp with a sprayer, pour on your glue in a lattice so that there are no large gaps, spray it again, and start piling on your substrate, cork bark, etc. Just keep pressing down as it expands, and after an hour, peel and spray off the excess. It gives you a nice, thin background, with no scraping or siliconing involved. God I wish I knew about it sooner.

Hereís a better tutorial-

https://youtu.be/GfZ4uzLSMf4

It only took me half of an 8 Oz bottle to do the 2 sides of the 10 gallon. I estimate that you could cover somewhere around 720 square inches from one bottle, depending on how you apply it.


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Old 06-21-2020, 01:45 AM
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Does anyone have thoughts on millipedes for this set up? Could they possibly stress the frogs if they happen to be big enough?


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Old 06-21-2020, 02:27 AM
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Default Re: How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

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Does anyone have thoughts on millipedes for this set up? Could they possibly stress the frogs if they happen to be big enough?


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I wouldn't add millipedes to this tank, personally. They have been known to eat plants in tanks.
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Old 06-21-2020, 02:57 AM
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I wouldn't add millipedes to this tank, personally. They have been known to eat plants in tanks.

Thanks! Definite no to millis, then.


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Old 06-21-2020, 06:37 AM
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Close proxy = repetitive.

I would not want my small frog's rest or vigilance being incited by any in-house organism that could be perceived by them as a predatory arthropod, whether it ate the plants or not.

In a larger environment it may even count as occasional naturalistic stimuli, but not in a 10 gal tank. The dynamic changes in its constant.

Perhaps they would become desensitized, but that isnt desirable to me either. They have enough to adapt to.
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Old 06-21-2020, 03:53 PM
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Close proxy = repetitive.

I would not want my small frog's rest or vigilance being incited by any in-house organism that could be perceived by them as a predatory arthropod, whether it ate the plants or not.

In a larger environment it may even count as occasional naturalistic stimuli, but not in a 10 gal tank. The dynamic changes in its constant.

Perhaps they would become desensitized, but that isnt desirable to me either. They have enough to adapt to.

Thank you! Thatís definitely something I was worried about. Wouldnít want to include anything that would stress them out.


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Old 06-21-2020, 10:44 PM
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Just added a few wandering jew cuttings. Iíll probably end up removing the one on the left, and maybe the one in the back.
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Old 06-22-2020, 01:57 AM
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Pretty much all the iterations look acceptable to me. I'd only recommend covering any exposed substrate with more leaf litter, so that the soil doesn't get stuck on the frogs
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Old 06-22-2020, 01:57 AM
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Pretty much all the iterations look acceptable to me. I'd only recommend covering any exposed substrate with more leaf litter, so that the soil doesn't get stuck on the frogs

Thank you! Iíll be sure to fill in any gaps if I missed any


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Old 08-09-2020, 08:16 PM
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Default How is my Mantella Baroni tank looking?

Hereís a little bit of an update for it. The plants are growing in pretty nicely, and I am very surprised that the button fern is still alive (I have a bad track record for ferns). Iíve added a few pothos cuttings that are just now starting to spring up and look healthy, and Iíve added a small rabbits foot fern to the background.




Iíll definitely have to trim the wandering Jew soon, but considering Iím in need of a few cuttings, thatís pretty darn handy.

Still need to purchase some ficus pumila quarcifolia and baby tears, or maybe something different. Joshís frogs just happened to sell out of everything right before I went to buy it, and my local hardware stores are barely stocking anything worthwhile :/


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