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Old 09-18-2019, 12:15 PM
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Default Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Hi everyone,

I've got a small group Mantella baroni, which currently consists of three captive bred individuals (out of water May 2018) and two wildcaught ones. I know for certain that one of the CB ones is a male, as well as one of the WC ones. I suspect that another CB is male and that the remaining two individuals are females. I had another WC male, but this one died earlier (from stress induced from treatment for subdermal mites).

I noticed in both the WC and CB ones that there are some inconsistencies regarding baroni characteristics. I've listed below the characteristics for baroni and madagascariensis, and have highlighted the key differences between them.

Mantella baroni:
-SVL 22-30 mm
-Head, dorsum, and flanks are solid black
-A yellowish rostral stripe is present, generally ending past the eye but not connecting to the flank blotches
-Front limbs are yellow to greenish, this colour extending as large flank blotches
-Hindlimbs are orange with irregular black stripes
-There are no flashmarks on the lower hindlimbs
-Ventral side is black and marked with yellow to greenish, rarely blue blotches
-Ventrally the orange color of the legs does not extend onto the femur
-Throat has one circular marking, but may be all black
-The iris is black

Mantella madagascariensis:
-SVL 20-27 mm
-Upper head surface, dorsum and flanks usually blackish
-Yellowish rostral stripe present, often in contact with flank blotch
-Front limbs are yellow to green, this colour extending as large flank blotches
-Hindlimbs orange, with or without blackish crossbands and marblings
-Distinct orange flashmarks present on lower hindlimbs (this often turns yellow in CB individuals)
-Ventral side is black with light markings (mostly whitish-blue, sometimes yellow to green). These being generally rather large, rounded, and situated posteriorly on the venter.
-Ventrally the orange color of the legs extends well into femur, sometimes with black and yellow markings
-Throat has distinct horseshoe marking, more extended in males
-Iris mostly containing light pigment in its upper part

I got the captive bred ones as youngsters from a reputable source in Europe, and I trust the seller when he says that the parents are 100% baroni. They were identified as such by several Mantella experts including himself. He also mentioned that their back will turn black in time, so I'm not too worried about that for now.

So now for the photographs:

CB individual 1 (confirmed male)







Characteristics which conflict with baroni:
-There is some orange spotting on the ventral side of the femur
-There is an interrupted horseshoe shape on the throat

Characteristics congruent with baroni and speaking against madagascariensis:
-The rostral stripe does not connect to the flank blotches
-There are no flashmarks on the legs
-The iris is all black

CB individual 2 (likely male)





Characteristics which conflict with baroni:
-There is orange spotting on the ventral side of the femur
-There is more than one spot on the throat

Characteristics congruent with baroni and speaking against madagascariensis:
-The rostral stripe does not connect to the flank blotches
-There are no flashmarks on the legs
-The iris is all black

CB individual 3 (potentially female)








Characteristics which conflict with baroni:
-There is a decent amount of orange spotting on the ventral side of the femur
-There is an interrupted horseshoe shape on the throat

Characteristics congruent with baroni and speaking against madagascariensis:
-The rostral stripe does not connect to the flank blotches
-There are no flashmarks on the legs
-The iris is all black

Deceased WC individual (confirmed male and in my opinion, sadly the most beautiful one I had)





Characteristics which conflict with baroni:
-The iris has a gold upper part

Characteristics congruent with baroni and speaking against madagascariensis:
-The rostral stripe does not connect to the flank blotches
-No orange on the ventral side of the femur
-There are no flashmarks on the legs
-There is a single spot on the throat

WC individual 2 (confirmed male)








Characteristics which conflict with baroni:
-The iris has a gold upper part

Characteristics congruent with baroni and speaking against madagascariensis:
-The rostral stripe does not connect to the flank blotches
-No orange on the ventral side of the femur
-There are no flashmarks on the legs
-There is a single spot on the throat

WC individual 3 (likely female)







Characteristics which conflict with baroni:
None

Characteristics congruent with baroni and speaking against madagascariensis:
-The rostral stripe does not connect to the flank blotches
-No orange on the ventral side of the femur
-There are no flashmarks on the legs
-There is a single spot on the throat
-The iris is solid black

So what are your opinions on this? Personally I suspect that there has been some introgression into some wildcaught baroni, and my main suspect would be Mantella nigricans as this species often has interrupted horseshoe markings on the throat and a gold upper part of the iris. Nigricans also does not have flashmarks and a recent study has shown that genetically the two species probably have intermixed in recent history (evolutionary speaking).
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Also, does anyone here happen to have some of the CB baroni from Josh's frogs? I'd be most interested in how they grow up color and pattern wise.
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Old 09-22-2019, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

I would probably say the mint green frog with some speckling on its back that appears to be missing most of its flashmarks from top view on the femur could be a madagascariensis, even though the easiest way to differentiate the two visually is the orange flashmark on the femur. I used to have a frog that looked nearly identical except he had orange flash marks and red all the way on the underside of the legs up to the waist. If you got them from a reputable source it could just be variation. Unfortunately there is no locale data for any mantellas so there could be different morphs that people have mixed unintentionally.

However, the picture from Joshsfrogs of their CB baroni had the light mint green color as froglets, so it could just be an age thing.

I have not bred baroni, but from the images online of CB baroni vs CB mads, mads are mostly brown when they morph out and teeny tiny with almost no green coloration.

Note though there are arguments that madagascariensis may be a complex of species, but baroni is genetically identical to nigricans.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

At least a few of your frogs appear to be madagascariensis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich View Post
Also, does anyone here happen to have some of the CB baroni from Josh's frogs? I'd be most interested in how they grow up color and pattern wise.
From what I understand, Josh's has only been able to breed a SINGLE individual to the froglet stage. Other than that, there is pretty much NO ONE being successful in breeding this species.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:35 AM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

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Originally Posted by Rain_Frog View Post
I would probably say the mint green frog with some speckling on its back that appears to be missing most of its flashmarks from top view on the femur could be a madagascariensis, even though the easiest way to differentiate the two visually is the orange flashmark on the femur. I used to have a frog that looked nearly identical except he had orange flash marks and red all the way on the underside of the legs up to the waist. If you got them from a reputable source it could just be variation. Unfortunately there is no locale data for any mantellas so there could be different morphs that people have mixed unintentionally.

However, the picture from Joshsfrogs of their CB baroni had the light mint green color as froglets, so it could just be an age thing.

I have not bred baroni, but from the images online of CB baroni vs CB mads, mads are mostly brown when they morph out and teeny tiny with almost no green coloration.

Note though there are arguments that madagascariensis may be a complex of species, but baroni is genetically identical to nigricans.
Thanks for the info, as I mentioned in my original post, I'd consider the seller to be a highly reputable source. I don't have photographs of the froglets when they just morphed out unfortunately as I only got them when they were already 9 months of age.

Earliest photograph I have (around 9 months OOW):



And a little under a month later:


I've done a bit of digging on the forum and there seem to be other threads documenting Mantella baroni with aberrant characteristics (horseshoe shaped spots on throats and gold upper part of iris). In particular these two are interesting with regard to the characteristics shown:
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/id...at-specie.html
https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/me...ella-tank.html

I'll keep an eye on mine and post some more pictures now and then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
At least a few of your frogs appear to be madagascariensis



From what I understand, Josh's has only been able to breed a SINGLE individual to the froglet stage. Other than that, there is pretty much NO ONE being successful in breeding this species.
I wasn't aware that this was only a single froglet. However I do know a few people in europe who at least have had clutches (both fertile and infertile) and tadpoles of baroni.
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Old 09-23-2019, 04:20 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

i would just try and contact Josh for this? Also Serge Pasquasi has worked with mantella in Madagascar, I am sure he knows people that breed them. In Hamm, there is always a mantella breeder selling his offspring frogs. ( I think he is the breeder of your frogs? )

But I also sure, most mantella are just wild caught.
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Old 09-23-2019, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
i would just try and contact Josh for this? Also Serge Pasquasi has worked with mantella in Madagascar, I am sure he knows people that breed them. In Hamm, there is always a mantella breeder selling his offspring frogs. ( I think he is the breeder of your frogs? )

But I also sure, most mantella are just wild caught.
Already did in June, got this reponse from them:


"Cara (Josh's Frogs HelpDesk)

Jun 18, 10:59 AM EDT

Thanks for reaching out to us! At this time, Josh's Frogs does not offer pictures of individual frogs for sale. Here's why:

Additional Stress to the animals
We produce and ship out a LOT of frogs. The additional handling of each froglet for pictures would cause extra, unnecessary stress for every animal that leaves our doors. Stress can cause a reduction in appetite and slow down in growth - we want our froglets to be the biggest possible for their age!

Time
It takes a LOT of time to take care of, breed, and clean up after thousands of frogs, and it would take even more time to get individual pictures of each animal. We feel that our time is best spent ensuring every animal purchased from Josh's Frogs is happy, healthy, and the best it can be.

Biosecurity
We maintain strict biosecurity and quarantine protocols at Josh's Frogs. These do not allow for froglets to leave the raising rooms for pictures, then return to them. We must adhere to these principles for the safety of our animals.

Reserving Frogs
We do not hold specific frogs for customers. Instead, we ship out the largest frogs we have on hand when an order ships. That way, we can ensure our customers are receiving the largest, well started froglets possible when they receive their order.

Froglet Variability
Many species of frogs (especially some dart frogs) are quite variable. We've put together many pictures of each morph on their specific product page to provide you with a better idea of what your froglets could look like.


Thank you for choosing Josh's Frogs! Have a great day!
-Cara"

So sadly no extra pics of their froglet(s)

The Mantella breeder in Hamm is someone I know (and he is not the source of my frogs). He has a breeding group of baroni but so far he only had infertile clutches. He does breed M. madagascariensis (and other Mantella species). I'll shoot a message to Serge to see if he has more info.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:17 PM
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Understory enterprises also claim to sell only captivebred mantella, mayebe they are worth a try?

Ive been in touch with them in past and they helped me out allot back then.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Baroni / cowani / nigricans are difficult frogs to breed, but some people like Joshsfrogs have gotten them to breed. I talked to Joshsfrogs a while back and they said they got baroni to breed and what they did was keep them in very, very large groups. They were for sale for a while and the froglets pictured had uniform light mint green with brownish gray backs like in the picture. The froglet pictures are still up under " baroni" on their website. I'm pretty sure it's diet related why most of us have poor success, which is a shame because baroni are so commonly imported yet few people have gotten them figured out. I can say at least visually those froglets have to be baroni or baroni / mad crosses.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:31 AM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Here's a quick assessment of the adults (it's kinda hard on my computer cuz the images aren't resizing properly, and the images are huuuuuge)

WC individual 3 (likely female)
baroni

Deceased WC individual
madagasc
orange flashmarks

WC individual 2 (confirmed male)
madagasc
light upper iris


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain_Frog View Post
I can say at least visually those froglets have to be baroni or baroni / mad crosses.
I would agree here. Their chins have almost the classic madagascariensis "U", I can't see them NOT having any madagasc in them.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Also, another way to figure it out is with the calls. Madagac is usually *chirp*chirp* or *chirpy*chirp*. Baroni is *tick*..*tick*..*tick*.

Madagascariensis calling:

Baroni calling:
https://amphibiaweb.org/sounds/Mantella_baroni.mp3

*also just noticed the eyes in Deceased WC individual. This would also support madagasc
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:18 AM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain_Frog View Post
Baroni / cowani / nigricans are difficult frogs to breed, but some people like Joshsfrogs have gotten them to breed. I talked to Joshsfrogs a while back and they said they got baroni to breed and what they did was keep them in very, very large groups. They were for sale for a while and the froglets pictured had uniform light mint green with brownish gray backs like in the picture. The froglet pictures are still up under " baroni" on their website. I'm pretty sure it's diet related why most of us have poor success, which is a shame because baroni are so commonly imported yet few people have gotten them figured out. I can say at least visually those froglets have to be baroni or baroni / mad crosses.
Yeah I noticed those photographs on their website. It's a shame there are no ventral photographs of that froglet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
Here's a quick assessment of the adults (it's kinda hard on my computer cuz the images aren't resizing properly, and the images are huuuuuge)

WC individual 3 (likely female)
baroni

Deceased WC individual
madagasc
orange flashmarks

WC individual 2 (confirmed male)
madagasc
light upper iris




I would agree here. Their chins have almost the classic madagascariensis "U", I can't see them NOT having any madagasc in them.
Sorry about the massive size of the photographs. I don't see the flashmarks you're referring to though, I'll see if I can make a clear photograph of the legs of the WC male (and post it a bit smaller).

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
Also, another way to figure it out is with the calls. Madagac is usually *chirp*chirp* or *chirpy*chirp*. Baroni is *tick*..*tick*..*tick*.

Madagascariensis calling:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAEIRauZ7KA

Baroni calling:
https://amphibiaweb.org/sounds/Mantella_baroni.mp3

*also just noticed the eyes in Deceased WC individual. This would also support madagasc
This is the CB male calling at the height of the calling bout (he usually starts slower and speeds up when he sees another frog). To me this sounds more like baroni, just a bit faster than the URL you posted:


I don't have videos of the other males calling (specifically because the WC one only calls sporadically) but they also have singular "ticks" when they call.
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Try using imgbb to upload your pictures Johan. We have the same "problem" at gifkikkerforum.be
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:01 AM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

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Try using imgbb to upload your pictures Johan. We have the same "problem" at gifkikkerforum.be
These were all uploaded with imgbb
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Old 09-24-2019, 09:04 AM
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These were all uploaded with imgbb
lol, missed this. thought i read tinypic a while aggo
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

The "flashmarks" are just splotches of slightly lighter orange. They are... pretty subjective lol. You can kinda see them here:



But besides that, the eyes are a fair giveaway:



if you compare to the female baroni, you can see how her eyes don't have the yellow accent, and how her legs are a much more even orange
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Old 09-30-2019, 01:59 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
The "flashmarks" are just splotches of slightly lighter orange. They are... pretty subjective lol. You can kinda see them here:



But besides that, the eyes are a fair giveaway:


if you compare to the female baroni, you can see how her eyes don't have the yellow accent, and how her legs are a much more even orange
I see what you mean, but I was always under the impression that Mantella flashmarks were located only within the joint between the femur and thigh, such as in this photograph of M. pulchra (picked from the internet):
Mantella pulchra.

I can't compare the deceased animal with the other two wildcaught individuals because I have a limited amount of photographs, but I'll see if I can make a picture of the remaining WC ones to compare their legs. Would be interesting to see if there is similar "splotching" going on in the other WC male with gold in the iris.

This identification guide is often given as a good reference: Correctly Identifying Mantella baroni and Mantella madagascariensis

The text on this guide states:
"Individual frogs sometimes exhibit ventral patterns that lie somewhere in between the two species." as well as "No one feature should be used as the only means of identification, as few individual frogs of either species exhibit all of the traits below. Instead, all information should be compared to that of an individual frog and whichever side matches the frog best is likely the species". This doesn't really help clearing the matter unfortunately

Given the presence of hybrids of several mantella species (e.g. baroni x cowani and madagascariensis x aurantiaca), maybe baroni and madagascariensis have some of each other's genes (and maybe others as well) mixed in anyway in certain populations? Only way to know for certain would be to do a genetic analysis I suppose. Too bad my PhD focuses on soil microbial communities with DNA techniques, I would've loved to work on frog phylogeny or population genetics.
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Old 10-01-2019, 03:05 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Took a few shots of the two wildcaught individuals yesterday. As you can see, the legs of the female (bottom frog in both photographs) are not uniformly orange and also show kind of spots of lighter color.


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Old 10-03-2019, 11:27 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich View Post

The text on this guide states:
"Individual frogs sometimes exhibit ventral patterns that lie somewhere in between the two species." as well as "No one feature should be used as the only means of identification, as few individual frogs of either species exhibit all of the traits below. Instead, all information should be compared to that of an individual frog and whichever side matches the frog best is likely the species". This doesn't really help clearing the matter unfortunately

Given the presence of hybrids of several mantella species (e.g. baroni x cowani and madagascariensis x aurantiaca), maybe baroni and madagascariensis have some of each other's genes (and maybe others as well) mixed in anyway in certain populations? Only way to know for certain would be to do a genetic analysis I suppose. Too bad my PhD focuses on soil microbial communities with DNA techniques, I would've loved to work on frog phylogeny or population genetics.
Yeah, the "flashmarks" is pretty subjective in my opinion. I haven't seen enough/good evidence on what it actually means lol. Even the mantella guide just shows a drawing -- no example individuals.

That said, the U-chin is a classical madagascariensis trait that isn't found in baroni. I'd say the fact that the offspring have it, is pretty indicative that they have at least some madagascariensis lineage.

There definitely are documented naturally occurring hybrid individuals.

There isn't a published genome for madagascariensis and baroni, right? If you have access to a PCR machine, this would actually be a pretty easy/cheap thing to validate in the lab lol.
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Old 10-03-2019, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Johanovich View Post
Took a few shots of the two wildcaught individuals yesterday. As you can see, the legs of the female (bottom frog in both photographs) are not uniformly orange and also show kind of spots of lighter color.


what do the undersides and irises look like?
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Old 10-04-2019, 10:08 AM
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Yeah, the "flashmarks" is pretty subjective in my opinion. I haven't seen enough/good evidence on what it actually means lol. Even the mantella guide just shows a drawing -- no example individuals.

That said, the U-chin is a classical madagascariensis trait that isn't found in baroni. I'd say the fact that the offspring have it, is pretty indicative that they have at least some madagascariensis lineage.

There definitely are documented naturally occurring hybrid individuals.

There isn't a published genome for madagascariensis and baroni, right? If you have access to a PCR machine, this would actually be a pretty easy/cheap thing to validate in the lab lol.
I think you're gravely underestimating the ease and costs of DNA sequencing. Having a PCR machine in the lab (which we obviously do) does not help for sequencing on its own, you need a separate machine for that. There's also no need to sequence the whole genome, this is unnecessary as we can use some specific genes for species identification. Published data is available for these genes, so that would greatly help identification.

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what do the undersides and irises look like?
These are two animals that were already picture in the opening post, but here is the previous shot with the belly and eye shots together:
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Old 10-05-2019, 04:30 AM
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I think you're gravely underestimating the ease and costs of DNA sequencing. Having a PCR machine in the lab (which we obviously do) does not help for sequencing on its own, you need a separate machine for that. There's also no need to sequence the whole genome, this is unnecessary as we can use some specific genes for species identification. Published data is available for these genes, so that would greatly help identification.
Well that's why I asked about whether reference genomes were available for the species. If they're published, you just need primers for stretches of DNA that are different for each species, and you can just do a regular genotyping PCR run. Sequencing wouldn't be necessary.

OH HEY, while the whole genome hasn't been published, it does look like there is some mtDNA data available:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bioproject/?term=mantella

Here are specific primers based on that information:
Baroni
Madagascariensis

So yeah... you should be able to tell the species based on whether you get amplification or not, and by PCR band size...

Assuming you have access to everything else needed to run a PCR, the primers would only set you back about $40....
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:03 AM
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Well that's why I asked about whether reference genomes were available for the species. If they're published, you just need primers for stretches of DNA that are different for each species, and you can just do a regular genotyping PCR run. Sequencing wouldn't be necessary.

OH HEY, while the whole genome hasn't been published, it does look like there is some mtDNA data available:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bioproject/?term=mantella

Here are specific primers based on that information:
Baroni
Madagascariensis

So yeah... you should be able to tell the species based on whether you get amplification or not, and by PCR band size...

Assuming you have access to everything else needed to run a PCR, the primers would only set you back about $40....
I honestly hadn't considered that

I've worked with COI barcoding in the past and I'm now mostly doing metagenomics so this option completely slipped my mind.

I'll see if I can get this done somewhere in the next weeks, it might require some tweaking with cycle nr etc. and ideally I'll want a positive control for madagascariensis (but that's likely going to be difficult to get).
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Old 10-05-2019, 08:34 PM
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I'll see if I can get this done somewhere in the next weeks, it might require some tweaking with cycle nr etc. and ideally I'll want a positive control for madagascariensis (but that's likely going to be difficult to get).
haha, yeah, there's still lots of old school genetics that gets done

The only real drawback for this approach is the fidelity of the available information. The paper is behind a paywall for me, so I'm not sure how rigorous their data collection methodology is. That said, the BLAST algorithm should prevent non species-specific primer binding. The primer design past is based on Primer3, which is also pretty accurate and trusted.

In this case a real positive control would be hard to get ahold of, due to the lack of information. But a well-designed assay would go a long way. You could start with just one individual to test things out, and run the baroni/madagascariensis primer sets in different tubes to avoid potential complications. And then as long as you only really get an amplicon of the expected size, you should be good.

OH and I guess the other thing you'd need is some sort of kit for amplifying genomic DNA from swabs or other similar method.

But yeah, this would be a nice thing for us to have in the hobby, to confirm/prove the identities of baroni/madagascariensis. Other methods are completely subjective...
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:53 AM
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haha, yeah, there's still lots of old school genetics that gets done

The only real drawback for this approach is the fidelity of the available information. The paper is behind a paywall for me, so I'm not sure how rigorous their data collection methodology is. That said, the BLAST algorithm should prevent non species-specific primer binding. The primer design past is based on Primer3, which is also pretty accurate and trusted.

In this case a real positive control would be hard to get ahold of, due to the lack of information. But a well-designed assay would go a long way. You could start with just one individual to test things out, and run the baroni/madagascariensis primer sets in different tubes to avoid potential complications. And then as long as you only really get an amplicon of the expected size, you should be good.

OH and I guess the other thing you'd need is some sort of kit for amplifying genomic DNA from swabs or other similar method.

But yeah, this would be a nice thing for us to have in the hobby, to confirm/prove the identities of baroni/madagascariensis. Other methods are completely subjective...
Already had some sterile swabs available, so I swabbed their skin yesterday and extracted DNA from it (we had a few spare DNA extraction kits from free testers). I'll try and measure DNA content of the extracts and do a PCR test with general eukaryotic primers to see if the extractions worked. Hopefully most will work because I'd prefer to not have to swab them again, it's not exactly pleasant for them.

I'll try to get a hold of one of the primer pairs for each species. I've selected pairs which have different amplicon size for each species (618 bp for mad and 1028 bp for baroni), GC clamps and relatively low self-compatibility so hopefully they work. Won't able to get and test them before the end of the week, but I'll keep you posted when I get any results.
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Old 10-08-2019, 12:11 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

Best of luck with the samples Johan!
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:53 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

My guess is they are all Mantella baroni, especially after listening to the captive-bred one call in the video (it is a single one note metalic dink, not a two note chirp like you would expect for madagascariensis). Mantella baroni are really variable, not all will have a single dot on their chin, although I agree it is kind of unusual to have a group with so many characteristics which seem to be in-between. That said, you really won't know with certainty what species they are unless you know where the wild ones were collected or go ahead and do the genetic work.

I also think it is interesting the captive-bred ones have such unusual coloration. This can be an issue for other captive frogs too, including other mantellas. For example, how many captive-bred aurantiaca do you see with red flashmarks? Often they are missing or washed out and yellow. Often captive-bred mantellas are faded and less intensely colored than their wild counterparts. Maybe it relates to diet of breeders, tadpoles, or juveniles as they grow. In this case, it is almost as if they captive-bred baroni are not losing their juvenile coloration even though they are now adults.
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Old 10-09-2019, 08:25 PM
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My guess is they are all Mantella baroni, especially after listening to the captive-bred one call in the video (it is a single one note metalic dink, not a two note chirp like you would expect for madagascariensis). Mantella baroni are really variable, not all will have a single dot on their chin, although I agree it is kind of unusual to have a group with so many characteristics which seem to be in-between. That said, you really won't know with certainty what species they are unless you know where the wild ones were collected or go ahead and do the genetic work.

I also think it is interesting the captive-bred ones have such unusual coloration. This can be an issue for other captive frogs too, including other mantellas. For example, how many captive-bred aurantiaca do you see with red flashmarks? Often they are missing or washed out and yellow. Often captive-bred mantellas are faded and less intensely colored than their wild counterparts. Maybe it relates to diet of breeders, tadpoles, or juveniles as they grow. In this case, it is almost as if they captive-bred baroni are not losing their juvenile coloration even though they are now adults.
They are actually still losing their juvenile coloration, they're just taking very long to do so. This picture was snapped last week of the CB individual nr 2. The back is almost black now (there is some light reflecting off of it on the picture) and the blueish green on the flanks is slowly becoming more green. Still I doubt they will get the exact same colors as the WC adults.

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Old 10-10-2019, 10:44 PM
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They are actually still losing their juvenile coloration, they're just taking very long to do so. This picture was snapped last week of the CB individual nr 2. The back is almost black now (there is some light reflecting off of it on the picture) and the blueish green on the flanks is slowly becoming more green. Still I doubt they will get the exact same colors as the WC adults.

Yeah, a lot of the mantella are more brown-ish until they're adults. If I recall correctly, the single baroni offspring that Josh's was selling was pretty brown also.
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Old 10-11-2019, 04:48 PM
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Default Re: Mantella baroni introgression? Very picture heavy!

First set of primers had no amplification for either species, too bad but I've got one more set for madagascariensis and two more for baroni.

Will try again next week with the next set for both.
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