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Old 07-13-2010, 03:18 PM
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Unhappy Love him or hate him.....

The Boss is gone.
RIP George.

Yankees owner George Steinbrenner dies at 80 - Yahoo! News

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Old 07-13-2010, 03:22 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

As a Phillies fan I cant say I ever liked the guy... but I've always respected him. Sad day for baseball
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:38 PM
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Its definitely a sad day, but I think ultimately a good day for baseball. Hopefully this can be the start to a bit more fairness in the economics of baseball.
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

RIP The Boss!
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Old 07-13-2010, 04:49 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

He set the frame work for winning that every fan wants to see their team follow. Those that hate on the Yankees in reality hate the way their team's cheap owners line their pockets. Owners should not run a team trying to make money but to win championships.

The Boss went out on top. World Champs of 2009. Billion dollar new stadium. Thanks for a great run and a great future to look forward to!!!
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
He set the frame work for winning that every fan wants to see their team follow. Those that hate on the Yankees in reality hate the way their team's cheap owners line their pockets. Owners should not run a team trying to make money but to win championships.

The Boss went out on top. World Champs of 2009. Billion dollar new stadium. Thanks for a great run and a great future to look forward to!!!
Couldn't be said better
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

Recipe for success...

1 part $$$$
1 part HGH/steroids

Not the only "cook" to follow this recipe.

RIP George
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Old 07-13-2010, 06:49 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

80 ??? That's a long freaking time......sounds like a good run to me.

But I bet....if asked.....he would have wanted to "buy" a few more years.

You can be a king or a street sweeper.......
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jubjub47 View Post
Its definitely a sad day, but I think ultimately a good day for baseball. Hopefully this can be the start to a bit more fairness in the economics of baseball.
Hey Tim,
it will be a better day for baseball when Cliff Lee is wearin Pinstripes next year.

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Old 07-13-2010, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

Hands down THE BEST owner in the history of sports. Took a horrible franchise and immediately would not accept mediocrity, put winning ahead of all else, which is what he was criticized for, if you can imagine that - a sports team owner putting winning ahead of all else - how dare he.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

Even without him the empire lives on, now they have more motivation to go out and win another this year for the boss.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:35 PM
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Hands down THE BEST owner in the history of sports. Took a horrible franchise and immediately would not accept mediocrity, put winning ahead of all else, which is what he was criticized for, if you can imagine that - a sports team owner putting winning ahead of all else - how dare he.
I for one don't criticize him for wanting to win. It's pretty easy to do when you have the money to use the entire league as farm system. Until baseball puts in a salary cap, the big market franchises will be the big bullies. And before everyone pats Steinbrenner on the back too much, realize that with the yankees, you're insane revenue allows you to obliterate every other teams payroll and still pad your own pockets really well. Let's not act like he was putting the team ahead of his finances, that's just not the case.
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:38 PM
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I for one don't criticize him for wanting to win. It's pretty easy to do when you have the money to use the entire league as farm system. Until baseball puts in a salary cap, the big market franchises will be the big bullies. And before everyone pats Steinbrenner on the back too much, realize that with the yankees, you're insane revenue allows you to obliterate every other teams payroll and still pad your own pockets really well. Let's not act like he was putting the team ahead of his finances, that's just not the case.
100% not true, Nintendo owns a team, Ted Turner owns a team, Ford owns a team, (we can go on) all of whom have more money than George Steinbrenner and all of whom put the profit margin ahead of winning
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Old 07-13-2010, 07:59 PM
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100% not true, Nintendo owns a team, Ted Turner owns a team, Ford owns a team, (we can go on) all of whom have more money than George Steinbrenner and all of whom put the profit margin ahead of winning
I'm not talking about who owns a team that has more money. I'm talking about which teams generate revenue. The Yankees are one of the most profitable sports franchises on the planet. The revenue that they bring in far surpasses any other teams in baseball. If you think that the salaries he pays out comes from his pocket then you're living in a fantasy world. He wouldn't spend the money if it didn't make financial sense. There are owners who want nothing more than to win, but their market and revenue only allow them to build through their farm systems. Anybody with money can build a winning baseball team, it takes a good gm to build a team with little to no money.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:07 PM
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In all reality, i thought Steibrenner was an asshole as a person, but he invested in the team like no other owner would, however with that said, the NY franchises in any sports are the most valuable of all, look at the Nicks who threw away the last 2 seasons to try and land Lebron, but they still make the most money out of any other team in the NBA.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:09 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the FLORIDA MARLINS the most profitable team for their owners in 2009?

And the small market teams POCKET the money they get from revenue sharing instead of trying to be competitive - if a player can't be or is unwilling to be competitive on the field, he gets taken off the field - if a MLB franchise can't be or is unwilling to be competitive on the field, they should be taken out of the league.

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Old 07-13-2010, 08:21 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the FLORIDA MARLINS the most profitable team for their owners in 2009?

And the small market teams POCKET the money they get from revenue sharing instead of trying to be competitive - if a player can't be or is unwilling to be competitive on the field, he gets taken off the field - if a MLB franchise can't be or is unwilling to be competitive on the field, they should be taken out of the league.
Chris,
where did you get that info, The marlins had a hard time filling seats in the stadium last year and are on the road to the same this year.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:36 PM
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Chris,
where did you get that info, The marlins had a hard time filling seats in the stadium last year and are on the road to the same this year.
I forget but I checked it out at the end of last season purposely, I'll check it out again soon. They're in a football stadium remember - also as profit they got millions in revenue sharing which is given to them to put into salary, which instead they used as profit.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:38 PM
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I forget but I checked it out at the end of last season purposely, I'll check it out again soon. They're in a football stadium remember - also as profit they got millions in revenue sharing which is given to them to put into salary, which instead they used as profit.
as far as i know the marlins moved out of joe murphy stadium last year and play some where else, but i coudl be wrong. however, even though it is a football stadium it is modified to fit only about 60k max not the usual football crowd of 80k
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:40 PM
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Chris,
where did you get that info, The marlins had a hard time filling seats in the stadium last year and are on the road to the same this year.
Must be the 30 million dollar payroll
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:52 PM
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Must be the 30 million dollar payroll
lol, i know, cheap bastards
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:58 PM
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R.I.P Boss, You showed the owners what it takes to be a consistent winner and not consistent losers.
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:59 PM
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Baseball doesn`t even belong in Florida.
During this past inter-league play when the Marlons and Rays were playing each other they were only drawing 20-30 thousand people, and thats when the Rays were in 1st place.

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Old 07-13-2010, 09:16 PM
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Baseball doesn`t even belong in Florida.
During this past inter-league play when the Marlons and Rays were playing each other they were only drawing 20-30 thousand people, and thats when the Rays were in 1st place.

John
Correction: Regular Season Baseball doesnt even belong in Florida... haha spring training is kinda nice there.

But I agree... my buddy went to school down there and just showed up and bought tickets (for actual seats, not standing room) a couple hours before one of the Rays ALCS games in 08. Thats just ridiculous if you ask me...
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:27 PM
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Correction: Regular Season Baseball doesnt even belong in Florida... haha spring training is kinda nice there.

But I agree... my buddy went to school down there and just showed up and bought tickets (for actual seats, not standing room) a couple hours before one of the Rays ALCS games in 08. Thats just ridiculous if you ask me...
Tom... I would have to agree.

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Old 07-13-2010, 10:05 PM
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The only revenue numbers I can find are from 2007 which is actually the 2006 numbers. The Yankees pulled in $302 million with the highest revenue and the Marlins had the lowest revenue at $122 million. A listing of salaries from 2008 shows the Yankees on top with $210 million and the Marlins in last paying out $22 million. Boston checks in with 234/139 respectively.

Making those amounts of cash makes it pretty easy to spend money and look like winning is your priority. In all reality, the revenue of the team makes it all possible and really makes to where any respectable owner is going to look like a saint. The Marlins have to fight just to operate even after operational costs which makes it impossible for them to compete in an open market that has no salary cap. Sure, occasionally they will have decent years when they're able to develop young talent. The problem is that once they do the Yankees swoop in with their checkbooks and sign them.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:45 PM
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The only revenue numbers I can find are from 2007 which is actually the 2006 numbers. The Yankees pulled in $302 million with the highest revenue and the Marlins had the lowest revenue at $122 million. A listing of salaries from 2008 shows the Yankees on top with $210 million and the Marlins in last paying out $22 million. Boston checks in with 234/139 respectively.

Making those amounts of cash makes it pretty easy to spend money and look like winning is your priority. In all reality, the revenue of the team makes it all possible and really makes to where any respectable owner is going to look like a saint. The Marlins have to fight just to operate even after operational costs which makes it impossible for them to compete in an open market that has no salary cap. Sure, occasionally they will have decent years when they're able to develop young talent. The problem is that once they do the Yankees swoop in with their checkbooks and sign them.
So just quick and dirty that means $100 million for the Marlins owners BEFORE they get the millions in revenue sharing money, and $92 million for the Yankees owners before they start PAYING OUT millions in revenue sharing?

"Revenue sharing makes some franchises significant payers and others recipients. For example, in 2005, the Yankees reportedly paid out about $76 million. Meanwhile, the Tampa Bay Rays, Toronto Blue Jays, Florida Marlins and Kansas City Royals each received $30 million or more, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Under the first version of revenue-sharing (from 2002 through 2006), some low-revenue teams seemed to be gaming the system. While revenue-sharing money is supposed to be used to improve on-field performance, some teams appeared to be using the shared revenue to enhance profits while failing to invest in higher payrolls. Last year Forbes reported that from 2002 to 2006, the Royals’ revenue-sharing dollars doubled to $32 million, while their player costs increased only 6 percent. Likewise, in 2006 and 2007, the Florida Marlins reportedly received more than $60 million in revenue sharing, according to The Hardball Times, but the team had opening day payrolls totaling $45.5 million."


Looks to me like the Marlins are getting more just in revenue sharing payouts than they spend in salary. Sure, they want to win.

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Old 07-13-2010, 11:03 PM
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The revenue numbers I posted were post revenue sharing paid out. You can't just look at the salaries paid and say that the team doesn't want to win. The finances of baseball should put each team in a pretty similar operational cost. IE-loans, balls, utilities and so forth. In the days of new stadiums, most teams have a stadium that they are paying for regardless of how new it is. What does it matter if 30million of what the Marlins received in revenue is from sharing? If they have to put that money towards operational costs what is wrong with that? Would it make you feel better if they ditched the $30 million that they are spending and put it towards operational costs and then pay the salaries with the shared revenue? It's splitting hairs. If the team doesn't make money it can't stay in business. These owners haven't got to where they are by being bad businessmen. Sure they want to win, but they also want to make money and wouldn't be owners if they didn't.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:07 PM
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Exactly, some teams put making money before winning. Some teams put winning before making money. By losing, those teams make money. More money than the Yankees. Then their fans blame the Yankees instead of their owners. Howcome teams owned by people richer than the Steinbrenners aren't competitive? Revenue sharing was designed for on field performance like was written. $130 million in profit makes "operational costs" a lame excuse.

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Old 07-13-2010, 11:18 PM
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Exactly, some teams put making money before winning. Some teams put winning before making money. By losing, those teams make money. More money than the Yankees. Then their fans blame the Yankees instead of their owners. Howcome teams owned by people richer than the Steinbrenners aren't competitive? Revenue sharing was designed for on field performance like was written. $130 million in profit makes "operational costs" a lame excuse.
You seem to have personal finances confused with business finances. Take the Texas Rangers for example. The team has filed for bankruptcy and has even had to turn to baseball to pay salaries. Yet Tom Hicks, the owner, financially is not bankrupt. The Marlins $122million in revenue is before they paid out any expenses including salaries. Take out salaries and your down under $100million and that's still not paid for operational costs. There's a lot of ticket takers and popcorn and hotdog vendors that still need to be paid. Stadium loans and such, they all must be looked at big picture wise. Operational costs through the league are all pretty similar so the extra $150million in revenue that the Yankees make over the Marlins can go to salaries and (big shocker) Steinbrenner. It's easy to look back and way everyone's whining when your team is the big cheese. I know, I'm in Dallas where nationally the Cowboys are kings. It's hard to step outside the box and see the big picture sometimes.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:29 PM
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Using the Yankees and Marlins as comparison, go back and do that breakdown again
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:30 AM
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I for one don't criticize him for wanting to win. It's pretty easy to do when you have the money to use the entire league as farm system. Until baseball puts in a salary cap, the big market franchises will be the big bullies. And before everyone pats Steinbrenner on the back too much, realize that with the yankees, you're insane revenue allows you to obliterate every other teams payroll and still pad your own pockets really well. Let's not act like he was putting the team ahead of his finances, that's just not the case.
This excuse is used daily in Kansas City even though David Glass(2.8 billion net worth compared to 1.15 billion for Steinbrenner and one of the lowest payrolls and crappiest teams in the league) has way more money then Steinbrenner and pockets millions of Yankee collective bargain agreement money yearly. Steinbrenner certainly was not putting the team in front of his finances. He was producing a team that people want to watch and that generates more money that he is willing to reinvest into the team.

What really needs to happen is the elimination of the so called small market teams. Small market team = owner that does not want to pony up the cash to produce a tam worthy of watching and generating their own money. There needs to be a salary floor and ALL money from any collective bargaining agreement must be added to the salary floor.

Owners of teams need to run the business to win not to make more money.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:42 AM
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He was producing a team that people want to watch and that generates more money that he is willing to reinvest into the team.
uhhhh.

regardless of how well the team does they will always make more then the small market teams.

Here is an example I gave someone recently.

If .1% of NYC goes to games that is 22000 people.
If .1% of San Diego goes to games that is 3000 people.

This discrepancy is HUGE.

Now that being said I want a MINIMUM cap as well as a maximum. These arent exact numbers but something like $80 mill-$150 mill would force the small market teams to pay up.


Now as for Steinbrenner. I do hate what the Yankees have turned the game into but if I were in his shoes I would have done the same thing.
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Old 07-14-2010, 03:47 AM
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This excuse is used daily in Kansas City even though David Glass(2.8 billion net worth compared to 1.15 billion for Steinbrenner and one of the lowest payrolls and crappiest teams in the league) has way more money then Steinbrenner and pockets millions of Yankee collective bargain agreement money yearly. Steinbrenner certainly was not putting the team in front of his finances. He was producing a team that people want to watch and that generates more money that he is willing to reinvest into the team.

What really needs to happen is the elimination of the so called small market teams. Small market team = owner that does not want to pony up the cash to produce a tam worthy of watching and generating their own money. There needs to be a salary floor and ALL money from any collective bargaining agreement must be added to the salary floor.

Owners of teams need to run the business to win not to make more money.
Why do you guys not understand the difference between personal finances and business finances? Do you really think these players, owners and teams care about the fans? It's all about the mighty dollar. If a team does not make money it can't exist. If it can't exist it can't win. If the team can only afford to try and build through scouting and player development then they are doing what they can to win. It's really simple business. Even Lebron who took less total money still wins since he's moved to a non state income tax state. He's making up all the money he shorted himself just by leaving Ohio. If you think for a second that never occurred to him then you're kidding yourself. I agree there should be a salary floor and a salary cap. I'm not sure why you only seem to want a floor. I'm not sure what adding shared revenue to the base salary is going to do to help teams in financial problems. Paying out money on bad contracts is definitely not a wise business model. There's only so much that small market teams can afford before they have to recoup money.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jubjub47 View Post
Why do you guys not understand the difference between personal finances and business finances? Do you really think these players, owners and teams care about the fans? It's all about the mighty dollar. If a team does not make money it can't exist. If it can't exist it can't win. If the team can only afford to try and build through scouting and player development then they are doing what they can to win. It's really simple business. Even Lebron who took less total money still wins since he's moved to a non state income tax state. He's making up all the money he shorted himself just by leaving Ohio. If you think for a second that never occurred to him then you're kidding yourself. I agree there should be a salary floor and a salary cap. I'm not sure why you only seem to want a floor. I'm not sure what adding shared revenue to the base salary is going to do to help teams in financial problems. Paying out money on bad contracts is definitely not a wise business model. There's only so much that small market teams can afford before they have to recoup money.
Once again - the Marlins' payroll is less money than they get for free from revenue sharing, so basically, their players are FREE. If you buy a team and can only afford to put players on the field for free, you're in the wrong business from the start.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:57 AM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

Some cool quotes from George (don't you all wish your owners thought this way about you and your teams?):

"Winning is the most important thing in my life, after breathing. Breathing first, winning next. "

"As I've always said, the way New Yorkers back us we have to produce for them."

"I think about the next season right away."

"Owning the Yankees is like owning the Mona Lisa."
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:05 AM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

Also the visiting team gets a percentage of the home field teams take.

Ex. Blue Jays/Phillies series had to be moved from Toronto to Philly due to the summit. Toronto was the home team in Philly and actually made more money than they would have if they played in their own stadium because Philly sells out.

With the Marlins; if their payroll is 30 million and they get 20 million in Luxury tax and revenue sharing the owners are only paying 10 million in salary. Within the last 10 years these so called small market teams all got new stadiums with the exception of KC who renovated theirs. Florida gets theirs in 2 years

So whats worse taking your revenue and dumping it back into your team to try and build a winning team for your fans and city? Or taking your revenue that you're making on your brand new stadium that your fans and city probably helped you build and sticking it in your pocket
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:35 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

The Marlins shouldn't even be around. MLB expanded into a market that can't or won't support baseball. That being said, the team is now there and the owner must work with the resources that he has available.

The stadium issue is entirely it's own monster. I don't blame the owners for making money off the stadiums. If a city is willing to go in for most of the bill and then turn over all revenue to the team owner, that's there problem. What team owner would actually tell the city, "no, you keep these profits".
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:55 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

These owners used their personal finances to purchase these teams. If they want the teams to become great and produce profits then more then just the initial price to purchase the team will be required of their personal finances. Does anyone believe that Steinbrenner only put in the initial cost of 8.7 million into the franchise when he took over the team in 1973? What business owner starts, or purchases a struggling business, without thinking they will be needing to spend more money to better the product to attract clients/fans. What is totally ridiculous with the major league baseball's arguement for small market teams is the allowance of these owners to pocket any collective agreement money. If owners purchase sports teams to profit they are bad for the sport in whole. I'm in no way saying they should run the team to loose money but every effort must be made to produce a quality product. If 10, 20, 30 plus million is being profited yearly by an owner that is excepting money from other teams then something is wrong with the model. I have no issue with the Yankees or any other team that is overspending having to pay a little more of a luxary tax as long as the money being given out is reinvested into making a better product for the overall success of the league. It's easy to hate the Yankees or Boston or any other team that is on the field to win and is supported by their owners. If this arguement had any validity then the Mets would be just as big of a story franchise as the Yankees and the Yanks Vs. Mets yearly meeting in the World Series would be the reality. Same market two completely different levels of success.

The solution is simple:
1. Salary Floor that increase with the addition of any recieved monies through the luxary tax or collective bargaining agreements.
2. Salary Cap
3. Luxary Tax for overspending the Salary Cap with the Tax being split up proportionately among the other teams
4. Elimination of markets not capable of supporting the Salary Floor either through fan support or owner support
5. If a team chooses to stay below the salary floor yet is still a viable team then they do not receive any collective bargaining or luxary tax money.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:13 PM
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Default Re: Love him or hate him.....

just wanted to chime in on the idea of a "salary floor" because I kinda thing its retarded to be honest...

You realize that it will just bring up the cost for everyone right? This is an oversimplification here, but imagine if every player in the majors is signed except one... and a team needs to pay out $10 Million to meet the floor... guess who is getting that $10 Million regardless of his actual worth.

Or better yet, say they do things evenly and say "ok we have to make up some of this salary floor, lets give some more money to our best players" well... come free agency, when all of the "this guy is making this much, so I should be making this much" talk happens... and the prices on EVERYONE are driven up.

The problem is that there is only a limited amount of talent available, so the "floor" idea is completely off base. The only real solution is a Cap, but unfortunately that isnt gonna happen any time soon... as the money buys championships thing gets thrown out the window when when you have the Rays in the WS 2 years ago with their $60 Mil (I think) payroll and the marlins beating the yankees in '03 with a $54Million payroll compared to the yankees $164
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