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View Poll Results: What do you feed your dog and/or cat?
Nutro 8 24.24%
Science Diet 3 9.09%
Eagle 0 0%
Eukanuba 1 3.03%
Iams 5 15.15%
Wellness 1 3.03%
Innova 1 3.03%
Pedigree/Purina 4 12.12%
Other Grocery store brand 1 3.03%
Natures Recipie 0 0%
Other 9 27.27%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-11-2005, 07:18 AM
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Default Going along with the dog pics thread, what do you feed them?

I work at a pet supply store that's focused on dog and cat food so after working there 6 years I like to believe that I know the difference between a "good" and a "bad" pet food by now. I just wanted to get a feel for what some of the folks on this board feed their pooches and maybe do a little educating too. If you have to choose the "Other" option, maybe put what you feed in your post so I can see if Ive even heard if it before; Im curious to know if there brands that very state-to-state. There must be.
-David
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:23 AM
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I voted first! We feed our cats Wellness because they use human grade ingredients, no by-products or fillers like corn, high levels of taurine which is good for their heart, and a bunch of other healthy palatable ingredients which is probably why our cats love it so much! No, I swear Im not a rep for Wellness even though I sound like a talking billboard right now. :lol:
-David
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Old 05-11-2005, 11:43 AM
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Default we feed solid gold

We feed our dogs Solid Gold Wolf King. It is pretty good food, supposed to be hypoallergenic, cause it is made from Buffalo meat and other food.
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Old 05-11-2005, 05:18 PM
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Just wondering in your poll you say Nutro, is that the same as Nutro Natural choice?? I think they are different.... we feed our dog Nutro Natural, large breed senior... he is an 11 year old, 130lb boxer Mastiff cross that even the vet comments on how healthy he is...
Michelle
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Old 05-11-2005, 05:32 PM
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Euk performance....only thing I've ever fed my boys, only thing i've ever found that keeps weight on the dogs during the demands placed on them during training and field trial season. During peak field trial season my dogs run anywhere from an hour to 3 hrs a day during training/conditoning...I have to ride an ATV just to keep up.

Dogs maintain excellent coat condition, muscle tone and not much to clean up in the yard.

-Matt

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Old 05-11-2005, 05:33 PM
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I used to feed Wellness but now my dog is on a raw diet. Raw chicken, raw beef and beef bones, raw veggies blended into a pulp in my food processor, etc. She loves it, and she's doing really well on it!
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Old 05-11-2005, 07:52 PM
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We spent 2 weeks in my animal feeds class going over cat and dog foos and I was amazed at how many of the expensive feeds actually have the same ingredients as the cheaper brands like Purina One. Ground corn is still the number one ingredient in Science Diet Adult Maintenance. But it is important to note that dogs actually require vegetables in their diet. Many people mistakenly believe that dogs are carnivores when in fact they are omnivores. Cats on the other hand are carnivores and their diet has much more specific requirements, especially when it comes to amino acids. I find it disturbing that people are trying to place their pets on trendy diets such as Atkins, without looking at their actualy nutritional needs. Also it is interesting to look at the feed label regulations and translate what they really mean; chicken does not necessarily mean chicken, and so on.
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Old 05-11-2005, 08:17 PM
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My dog gets California Natural Lamb and Rice as a dry food.
She loves fruits and veggies. She eats crickets and spiders too :!:

John R.
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Old 05-12-2005, 04:31 AM
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John, California Natural is some good stuff. We sell it at our store and I often recomend it. Our cats eat bugs too! My cat loves summer time because there are always a few files in the window screens for him to munch on :lol: Weird.

bgexotics, I know, it's upsetting to know how many people think some brands are better than the cheap grocery store brands, but actually, I only know of Science Diet and a few of the Eagle formulas that use ground corn and by-products. I also think it's wrong to put a dog on a high-protein low-carb diet because it isnt healthy for them, let alone human beings! Atkins is the stupidest diet, people are going to be having heart failure left-and-right in a few years when all the fat they're pumping into their bodies catches up with them. I also cant believe that some hard-core vegitarians selfishly decide to put their animals on vegitarian diets as well. That is just wrong.

erins66, That's awesome that you take the time and effort to feed your dog a raw diet. You probably know it but there are more and more comercial raw frozen diets on the market now like Steve's and Natures Variety to name a couple.

Matt, thats great if your dogs are going so well on Eukanuba. They'd probably do good on Natural Choice high energy as well, and Id chose it over the Eukanuba because they use corn gluten meal instead of ground corn (corn gluten meal has more concentrated protein, is easier to digest and has less alergens than ground corn) and they dont use by-products as Eukanuba does. Im not sure what the protein/fat percentage is on the nutro high energy, but Id guess it is greater than or equal to the eukanuba performance. Food for though, no pun intended.

Michelle, actually when I put Nutro, I meant all their lines (Max, Natural Choice, and Ultra). Im not surprised your dog is so healthy, Nutro makes great foods.

mmunchkins, I almost put Solid gold, but decided not to because I figured it didnt get distributed too far from California. I like Solid gold, especially their line of suppliments. Very high quality.

Good to hear from all of you. To those of you who chose pedigree or purina, you may want to consider something else. They dont have much nurtitional value and are hard on the dog's digestive system. Corn meal and by-products, especially in the quantity they use, are hard to digest. Talk to you guys later.
-David
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Old 05-12-2005, 07:03 AM
 
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Couldn't let this one pass by...my dog's also on a raw diet, NO veggies, NO grains, simply meat, bones, organs, anything that comes from an animal, basically. It's quite inaccurate to call this being on an "Atkins" diet, since canids have been eating this way long before we decided to come up with that ridiculous diet for ourselves. Our digestive tract differs so wildly from a dog's that there's no point in saying that a diet that's bad for us is also going to be bad for a dog.
Bgexotics, I'm curious, what are your sources for saying that dogs _need_ vegetables in their diet? True, dogs are not obligate carnivores in the sense that cats are, but all that means is that they've developed a few adaptations that allowed them to lead a scavenger lifestyle so they could survive when times were hard and prey were scarce. Dogs cannot, in fact, digest vegetables or grains in any appreciable form without them being extremely adulterated by us or the pet food companies. Try and feed a dog some raw veggies or grains without cooking or pulping them first to break down the cell walls and see how they come out the other end...exactly as they went in. So, if they need them so much, who was cooking them or putting them through the blender for their wolf ancestors (who dogs are essentially identical too, physiologically)? No offense intended, just a topic I enjoy discussing. I'm in vet school and feeding a raw diet and believing that processed commercial dogs foods are actually bad for dogs is a position that I'm continually forced to discuss/defend.

Felicite
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Old 05-12-2005, 07:23 AM
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Going with felicitedanes on this one, but we also feed our dogs Wysong.
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Old 05-12-2005, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felicitedanes
Couldn't let this one pass by...my dog's also on a raw diet, NO veggies, NO grains, simply meat, bones, organs, anything that comes from an animal, basically. It's quite inaccurate to call this being on an "Atkins" diet, since canids have been eating this way long before we decided to come up with that ridiculous diet for ourselves. Our digestive tract differs so wildly from a dog's that there's no point in saying that a diet that's bad for us is also going to be bad for a dog.
Bgexotics, I'm curious, what are your sources for saying that dogs _need_ vegetables in their diet? True, dogs are not obligate carnivores in the sense that cats are, but all that means is that they've developed a few adaptations that allowed them to lead a scavenger lifestyle so they could survive when times were hard and prey were scarce. Dogs cannot, in fact, digest vegetables or grains in any appreciable form without them being extremely adulterated by us or the pet food companies. Try and feed a dog some raw veggies or grains without cooking or pulping them first to break down the cell walls and see how they come out the other end...exactly as they went in. So, if they need them so much, who was cooking them or putting them through the blender for their wolf ancestors (who dogs are essentially identical too, physiologically)? No offense intended, just a topic I enjoy discussing. I'm in vet school and feeding a raw diet and believing that processed commercial dogs foods are actually bad for dogs is a position that I'm continually forced to discuss/defend.

Felicite
Very interesting post. I definitely donít think the "Atkins" approach to dog food is as ridiculous as it is for us, but in most situations for domesticated canines, it is still not necessary.

The average house dog eats once or twice a day, unless it free-feeds, and the extent of its exercise is a walk or run around the neighborhood when mom or dad gets home from work. If a dog like this is fed a high protein & fat diet, and doesnít have enough activity to burn it off in time, it would gain a lot of weight and wind up with serious health problems. That is why I think some commercial diets are right for dogs, grains and all. There are also benefits to many of the newer "holistic" ingredients, which are becoming increasingly popular with the high-end foods on the market such as apples, cottage cheese, brown rice, oatmeal, and cranberries.

Wild dogs never have a scheduled meal ready for them every day and often have to work very hard to get a catch. Those dogs NEED the very high protein and fat which their kill would provide because they burn it off very fast, or have to make it last longer periods of time.

Donít get me wrong, I think raw diets are the hot ticket if you have a dog who is being active enough to burn off the excess fat and protein, but feeding a diet with 35-40% protein and more than 20% fat to a dog who is penned up in the house all day is asking for cardiac arrest.

-David
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Old 05-12-2005, 01:02 PM
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I am not saying that the raw food diets are bad, but you have to be sure you are meeting all of the dogs nutritional requirements, which includes a carbohydrate requirement. I'll have to dig up one of the research papers I read but, dogs on 'all-meat" diets do suffer from nutirional deficiencies. While yes cornmeal is not an ideal source of carbohydrates, dog food processing has made the strach more available through gelatinization and extrusion. I agree cheap food are not the best, many dogs are allergic, my lab is on a special diet due to her allergies and skin problems.

Fecal studies have been done showing that the fecal output and quality (poop is one of the best indicators of how digestible a diet is about the same when comparing corn, rice, and sorghum. Excess protein in the diet is excreted by the dog and is unecessary.

If you do a Google search on dog nutritional requirements, 95% of the sites are connected to a site that sells dog food or represents a feed product, so you have to take the information with a grain of salt.
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Old 05-12-2005, 03:02 PM
 
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Very interesting post. I definitely donít think the "Atkins" approach to dog food is as ridiculous as it is for us, but in most situations for domesticated canines, it is still not necessary.

The average house dog eats once or twice a day, unless it free-feeds, and the extent of its exercise is a walk or run around the neighborhood when mom or dad gets home from work. If a dog like this is fed a high protein & fat diet, and doesnít have enough activity to burn it off in time, it would gain a lot of weight and wind up with serious health problems. That is why I think some commercial diets are right for dogs, grains and all. There are also benefits to many of the newer "holistic" ingredients, which are becoming increasingly popular with the high-end foods on the market such as apples, cottage cheese, brown rice, oatmeal, and cranberries.

Wild dogs never have a scheduled meal ready for them every day and often have to work very hard to get a catch. Those dogs NEED the very high protein and fat which their kill would provide because they burn it off very fast, or have to make it last longer periods of time.

Donít get me wrong, I think raw diets are the hot ticket if you have a dog who is being active enough to burn off the excess fat and protein, but feeding a diet with 35-40% protein and more than 20% fat to a dog who is penned up in the house all day is asking for cardiac arrest.

-David
I'm not sure why you think this David. I believe it's the exact opposite, that it's the carbs and other ingredients that make our pets fat and unhealthy, simply because they are not adapted to eat those ingredients. All carbs are to them is a bunch of sugar that they don't need and that their bodies don't really know how to deal with. Saying they'll get cardiac arrest from an high protein diet is once again comparing them to us, which is apples to oranges. Protein and fat are the only two sources their body really knows how to utilize well. And as far as saying only athletic canines need that, I've got to disagree. Is it only athletic humans who should eat regular servings of veggies and protein and whole grains, etc every day? And the rest of us should just eat Twinkies and hot dogs since we don't need that wholesome fuel? It's simply a matter of feeding amounts appropriate to their size and activity level. My eight year old Great Dane is certainly not an athlete, he spends approximately 20 hours a day rotating between the couch and my bed, but he's been going strong a raw diet all his life, to which I credit the fact that he's marvelously healthy and able to run around at the dog park when I can coax him off the couch
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Old 05-12-2005, 03:39 PM
 
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I am not saying that the raw food diets are bad, but you have to be sure you are meeting all of the dogs nutritional requirements, which includes a carbohydrate requirement. I'll have to dig up one of the research papers I read but, dogs on 'all-meat" diets do suffer from nutirional deficiencies. While yes cornmeal is not an ideal source of carbohydrates, dog food processing has made the strach more available through gelatinization and extrusion. I agree cheap food are not the best, many dogs are allergic, my lab is on a special diet due to her allergies and skin problems.

Fecal studies have been done showing that the fecal output and quality (poop is one of the best indicators of how digestible a diet is about the same when comparing corn, rice, and sorghum. Excess protein in the diet is excreted by the dog and is unecessary.

If you do a Google search on dog nutritional requirements, 95% of the sites are connected to a site that sells dog food or represents a feed product, so you have to take the information with a grain of salt.
The biggest part about your post that I agree with is taking the copious amounts of pet food company propaganda with a grain of salt, and I would extend that to your assertion that dogs have a 'carbohydrate requirement' in their diet. ALL canine dietary information needs to be viewed skeptically these days, because it's all put out there by companies who have a vested interest in making us think that our dogs need that stuff. Do you know that the textbook in my veterinary nutritition class was written by and paid for by Science Diet and a copy is _donated_ to every vet student who goes through that class? And that the main part of the professor's salary is paid for by grants that she received from various food manufacturers to use their products in her feeding trials? And that our vet school (and all vet schools) couldn't stay in operation without the billions of dollars that the food companies give them every year? So where could we possibly get objective information on nutrition? However, even my biased sources admit that dogs don't actually need carbs. We were just discussing in class the other day that dogs have fabulous gluconeogenic mechanisms, so they're able to make all the glucose they need from fatty acids and other sources, even if they don't have any carbs in their diet.
And just to clarify, I'm not advocating 'all-meat' diets. The diet also includes bones, organs, any and all animal parts. I agree that a diet of just muscle meat, which some people really do try to feed, is very unbalanced. No calcium, way too much phosphorus, lacking in a lot of other minerals.
As far as the fecal studies, I don't doubt that analysis was similar between all the grains you mentioned. I don't care what company puts what grain in their food, because I think ALL grains are bad and unnecessary. And fecal studies are just another pet food company ploy. I'd really rather look at my dog and his overall health than do microanalysis on his feces to see what he's not using. You could turn that right back around on them and ask why dogs are excreting all those grain by-products in their feces if they're so necessary.
Felicite
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Old 05-12-2005, 04:05 PM
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No dogs here... Raised around boxers who were fed real chicken and rice. At any rate, just wondering don't some carnivors graze quite a bit, like grizzlies, some of which have been documented to eat a 80-90% grass diet in some locals. Dogs eating grass isn't anything new and something that I have seen almost every captive dog do at some point. Might there not be something to providing at least this as part of their diet... Seems that a lot of mamals vary their diets in interesting ways from time to time. Grass eating grizzlies, chimpanzees that hunt and kill other primates, etc. On an aside, does anybody feed their dogs live prey? I often wonder about if this wouldn't enhance the quality of life at zoos for carnivors. I'm a vegetarian, so raising fruitflies for the slaughter is about as far as I can go, but if I was willing to raise a carnivorous animal, I would be tempted to allow them to hunt, not just eat out of a bowl...

This reminded me of a joke by some comedian about cat food "I heard a commercial for cat food with beef, chicken, and tuna. The flavors cats 'naturally crave'. Really? When was the last time you saw a house cat take down a cow?"
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Old 05-12-2005, 04:19 PM
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I want to write more but I have to go to work in 10 minutes. All I want to say right now is I will be printing this thread and reading a lot of it at a Wellness pet food seminar that my work is having next monday.
-David
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Old 05-12-2005, 05:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by audiotaylor
I want to write more but I have to go to work in 10 minutes. All I want to say right now is I will be printing this thread and reading a lot of it at a Wellness pet food seminar that my work is having next monday.
-David
And I can only imagine the replies you'll get from the Wellness people about this I make it a point to stay away from food company reps these days; it's like two rams butting heads....
F.
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Old 05-12-2005, 06:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Blort
No dogs here... Raised around boxers who were fed real chicken and rice. At any rate, just wondering don't some carnivors graze quite a bit, like grizzlies, some of which have been documented to eat a 80-90% grass diet in some locals. Dogs eating grass isn't anything new and something that I have seen almost every captive dog do at some point. Might there not be something to providing at least this as part of their diet... Seems that a lot of mamals vary their diets in interesting ways from time to time. Grass eating grizzlies, chimpanzees that hunt and kill other primates, etc. On an aside, does anybody feed their dogs live prey? I often wonder about if this wouldn't enhance the quality of life at zoos for carnivors. I'm a vegetarian, so raising fruitflies for the slaughter is about as far as I can go, but if I was willing to raise a carnivorous animal, I would be tempted to allow them to hunt, not just eat out of a bowl...

This reminded me of a joke by some comedian about cat food "I heard a commercial for cat food with beef, chicken, and tuna. The flavors cats 'naturally crave'. Really? When was the last time you saw a house cat take down a cow?"
You're right Blort, a lot of dogs will graze, mine does, but so do cats, and no one disagrees that they're carnivores. The important point, in my mind at least, is whether or not they can actually digest or utilize the things that they eat. And, without getting too graphic, in every one of my pets (dogs and cats), grass comes out exactly as it went in. I don't know why they eat it, maybe it tastes good, but they're really not getting anything out of it.
My pets are all on a mostly whole carcass diet, the cats eat whole rabbits, mice, rats, small birds, but I don't quite have the nerve to feed them live prey, although I've seriously considered it and I know they'd get a lot of enjoyment and enrichment from it. I'm a vegetarian as well, and I just like the small fuzzies too much to watch them get chased and killed. And my dog's a pacifist, he wouldn't even know what to do with a live animal, except maybe drool on it. He used to find toads in our back yard and would just dance around and bark excitedly until I came to see, but he's never shown any inclination to ever hurt anything he's found. I agree with you though, live prey would be ideal for some. I'm disgusted by the trend of a lot of zoos going towards feeding pre-prepared diets for their carnivores, sometimes even dog and cat foods. Like those animals' lives aren't empty enough, they're even deprived of the opportunity to rip and tear their food a bit.
Felicite
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Old 05-12-2005, 06:25 PM
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Our dog is allergic to food preservatives, so we cannot give him any of the pre processed foods unless it is all natural with no preservatives. Apparently the preservatives make her have siezures and have bloody urine. The preservatives triggers her immune system to attack red blood cells and other white blood cells.

That combined with the horrible flea medication. That in itself is another debate.
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by audiotaylor
I want to write more but I have to go to work in 10 minutes. All I want to say right now is I will be printing this thread and reading a lot of it at a Wellness pet food seminar that my work is having next monday.
-David
I've fed Wellness off and on for several years . . . When I first got my dog at 6 months old (that was, um, 12 years ago!) I fed her crappy food--Come-n-Get-It or somesuch. At about 2 years old, my vet suggested I upgrade her to Iams, then I did some research and put her on Sensible Choice.

By the time she was about 9, she was eating Canidae, and from Canidae I moved right to Wellness and that is the food she did best on, by far.

But since I switched her to raw/BARF, she's been in phenomenal shape. She's nearly 13, and I swear she's acting better now than she did 3 years ago. I'm amazed at the difference. I get bitched at by people a lot for giving my dog raw meat and raw bones (especially chicken necks and backs), but I feel like the risks (so far) have been worth it. I almost feel like she was slowly dying on kibble--not long before I switched her diet, I had a vet actually tell me that it was "just a matter of time" because she was just getting older and slowing down and she had GI problems constantly.

God, I feel like a commercial for raw/BARF. But I do have to say it's made a huge impact on my senior dog's quality of life, and I have a hard time imagining going back to kibble right now.

Here's a pic of her having breakfast the other day. Mmm. Meat.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...108AaMmTZs0Ytu
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Old 05-13-2005, 03:57 AM
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Default Solid Gold is sold on the East Coast, also....

Solid Gold is sold on the East Coast. We live in the Washington, DC area. If you go to their website, it will give you some places that sell it in your area. It also lists the ingredients in the different foods (or it did the last time I checked, anyway).
sue
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Old 05-13-2005, 07:06 AM
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Felicite,

Im so glad I made this post beause Im learning more than I thought Id ever know. I seriously cant wait untill Monday when I go in for the meeting to hear what they have to say about all this. I guess I really shouldnt talk untill Ive read-up on this whole thing a bit more. All that stuff I wrote about dogs needing less fat and protein when they're less active was all told to me by pet food companys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felicitedanes
I'm not sure why you think this David. I believe it's the exact opposite, that it's the carbs and other ingredients that make our pets fat and unhealthy, simply because they are not adapted to eat those ingredients. All carbs are to them is a bunch of sugar that they don't need and that their bodies don't really know how to deal with.
Well, what about this: All of the "Light" or "Weight control" formulas that we sell have less meat and more grains. Why do they work then? If what you said is true, wouldnt the extra carbohydrates in the light/weight conroll foods make them gain weight?

That aside, have you heard of the new EVO formula by Innova? There are no grains what so ever, and they compare it to feeding raw diets. It may be the only kibble on the market that you cant critisize, but I may be wrong. Check it out if you havent seen it here

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d= ... 1246%27%5D

Also, Felicite, could you maybe recommend a good, non-biast website about dog nutrition that I could browse through? I feel Im in a position to change a few people off comercial diets and onto the raw or evo diet. But I want to be able to get my own feel for it first.

-David
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Old 05-13-2005, 07:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erins66
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiotaylor
I want to write more but I have to go to work in 10 minutes. All I want to say right now is I will be printing this thread and reading a lot of it at a Wellness pet food seminar that my work is having next monday.
-David
I've fed Wellness off and on for several years . . . When I first got my dog at 6 months old (that was, um, 12 years ago!) I fed her crappy food--Come-n-Get-It or somesuch. At about 2 years old, my vet suggested I upgrade her to Iams, then I did some research and put her on Sensible Choice.

By the time she was about 9, she was eating Canidae, and from Canidae I moved right to Wellness and that is the food she did best on, by far.

But since I switched her to raw/BARF, she's been in phenomenal shape. She's nearly 13, and I swear she's acting better now than she did 3 years ago. I'm amazed at the difference. I get bitched at by people a lot for giving my dog raw meat and raw bones (especially chicken necks and backs), but I feel like the risks (so far) have been worth it. I almost feel like she was slowly dying on kibble--not long before I switched her diet, I had a vet actually tell me that it was "just a matter of time" because she was just getting older and slowing down and she had GI problems constantly.

God, I feel like a commercial for raw/BARF. But I do have to say it's made a huge impact on my senior dog's quality of life, and I have a hard time imagining going back to kibble right now.

Here's a pic of her having breakfast the other day. Mmm. Meat.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/4...108AaMmTZs0Ytu
Thats awesome! Am I right when I say that this method of feeding is pretty new? If its been around for a while Id love to know what the long term benefits of it are. A really cool customer that I help from time to time feeds his dog Newmans Own (which costs more than 2.00 a pound!) and he told me that dogs used to live to around 20 years before "dog food" was invented! Now that Ive heard more and more about dogs not being able to digest grains, Im thinking he may be right. Next time he's in, Im going to suggest that he try a raw diet. Thanks for the cute pic too!
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Old 05-13-2005, 01:25 PM
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I'm not sure that it's actually new, but it did have a big burst in popluarity several years ago. I first heard about people doing it about 6 or 7 years ago, but recently it seems I run into people feeding it all the time!
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Old 05-13-2005, 06:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by audiotaylor
Felicite,

Well, what about this: All of the "Light" or "Weight control" formulas that we sell have less meat and more grains. Why do they work then? If what you said is true, wouldnt the extra carbohydrates in the light/weight conroll foods make them gain weight?

That aside, have you heard of the new EVO formula by Innova? There are no grains what so ever, and they compare it to feeding raw diets. It may be the only kibble on the market that you cant critisize, but I may be wrong. Check it out if you havent seen it here

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d= ... 1246%27%5D

Also, Felicite, could you maybe recommend a good, non-biast website about dog nutrition that I could browse through? I feel Im in a position to change a few people off comercial diets and onto the raw or evo diet. But I want to be able to get my own feel for it first.

-David
As far as weight control formulas, they disgust me even more than most commercial foods do All they really do for those is decrease the digestibility of the food (i.e. less meat more grains) so the dog can eat approximately the same amount and still feel full, but be utilizing fewer calories. I haven't really kept up with the commercial brands since I started feeding raw eight years ago, but I know the Science Diet weight control formulas have things like ground peanut hulls in the first few ingredients, things that just go straight through the dog and out the other end. Pretty much every dog I've ever seen that's been on those formulations long term has had a horrible coat, horrible energy, etc, since they're just on a lower plane of nutrition. I haven't heard of the Innova formula you mention. In general, I'm not a big fan of pre-prepared raw diets (or similar foods, raw or not) because I think they still throw in a bunch of things that dogs don't need, mostly just to make the customers happy, since people want to see a bunch of what they assume are healthy ingredients (like veggies, fruits, herbs, etc.). I think they're still light years better than kibble, of course, but doing it yourself is so easy anyway, not to mention cheaper. If I had to feed pre-made raw (usually upwards of $2-4/lb) to my Dane, who eats several pounds of food a day, I wouldn't be able to afford to feed myself or any of the other animals.
I'd be happy to post some good websites. I'll try and do it this evening, because right now I'm getting ready to leave on vacation tomorrow morning and I've got a parasite-laden new frog that I've got to take in to the vet school. You wouldn't believe some of the crazy things we saw on his fecal!
I'm glad you're so interested in this! I really enjoy discussing it
Felicite
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Old 05-13-2005, 06:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erins66
I'm not sure that it's actually new, but it did have a big burst in popluarity several years ago. I first heard about people doing it about 6 or 7 years ago, but recently it seems I run into people feeding it all the time!
Yes, the big surge in popularity is sort of new; it seemed like it was just starting to grow when I got into it eight years ago. But, there is a large base of people out there who have been doing it for a long time. I have a friend in Atlanta who breeds Salukis and Azawahks who has been feeding 15+ dogs raw for 17 years. I think a lot of it has to do with the availability of info on the internet, especially the message boards and raw-feeding lists where people can discuss it and get support from others, instead of just having to be alone to defend themselves against their vet and friends and family telling them they're crazy and they're going to kill their dog.
F.
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Old 05-13-2005, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by felicitedanes
Dogs cannot, in fact, digest vegetables or grains in any appreciable form without them being extremely adulterated by us or the pet food companies. ... So, if they need them so much, who was cooking them or putting them through the blender for their wolf ancestors (who dogs are essentially identical too, physiologically)?

Felicite
Just curious as to where you see prey stomach/GI tract contents fitting in this. Do wolves avoid eating these parts of their prey? Enough there to be a significant part of the wolf's diet? Would these parts/contents be adulterated (digested) enough to provide nutrition? Just something I remember being discussed briefly when I was studying zoology a few eons ago.

bev
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Old 05-13-2005, 08:06 PM
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Both my dogs and my cat get dry IAMs, the older dog has been on it for over 9 years and is doign great. Same with the newer dog.
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Old 05-13-2005, 09:49 PM
 
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[quote="OneSmallFrog
Just curious as to where you see prey stomach/GI tract contents fitting in this. Do wolves avoid eating these parts of their prey? Enough there to be a significant part of the wolf's diet? Would these parts/contents be adulterated (digested) enough to provide nutrition? Just something I remember being discussed briefly when I was studying zoology a few eons ago.

bev[/quote]

I think a lot of people have different opinions about that. I tend to believe that wolves don't eat a significant portion of the stomach contents, since David Mech, a prominent wolf researcher, has documented numerous instances of wolves eating an entire carcass and leaving behind the stomach and all the contents. It makes sense to me since the large herbivores that wolves would be bringing down would have such huge amounts of grass products in their stomach, along with stomach acids and flora, etc. that it wouldn't be very appealing to a wolf. I do think they probably eat the GI contents of smaller prey, like rabbits, since it's probably too negligible for them to worry about picking out. Among the raw feeders I know who feed whole rabbits and other small prey items, some say their dogs eat the entire thing, while other dogs consistently leave the stomach and its contents behind.
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Old 05-14-2005, 12:08 AM
 
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Ok David, here's some links if you're interested. I'm not sure these necessarily fit under the heading of unbiased, since I don't know too many people that bother to make a web page about nutrition if they don't have some sort of opinions about the issue. But, I can guarantee that none of these pages have a _commercial_ interest in convincing anyone to feed raw.

http://www.caberfeidh.com/
This is a Deerhound breeder who's been feeding raw for 20+ years and I think her articles are very straightforward and common sense. Go to the 'holistic care' link at the top of the page.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/rawdog/
This one presents the other side of the issue on almost every common protest against raw food, some we've already discussed.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/
And my favorite, this is Dr. Tom Lonsdale's site, an Australian vet who has devoted his whole career to educating people about pet foods and raw diets. I know him personally, and he's my hero. For anyone who's interested in research or a veterinarian's opinion, this page has got it, just go to RMB articles in the site menu at the top. If you go to the newsletter archive, there's even a rant I wrote to Tom last year during my nutrition class, listed under 'Persistent vet school madness' Tom's book is the best resource I know of on the topic. If you're seriously interested, I've got several copies of his book and you're welcome to have one if you send me your address. He gives me the copies that his seller returns because they've got a bent cover or a ripped page, so I can give them to any interested vet students. Please only take it if you'll really read it though, I've only got a few at the moment.

F.
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Old 05-14-2005, 04:05 PM
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Home made mixed of chicken liver/heart,a vegatable, brown rice, extra of whatever will be good , and a supplement.
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Old 05-15-2005, 12:38 AM
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Ok, first I'll put out a little disclaimer here and say that I haven't taken that much time to read through all these posts..

There's a little quote that caught my eye here in someone elses post.. that's true.. and false at the same time.. "All carbs are to them is a bunch of sugar that they don't need and that their bodies don't really know how to deal with."

I'll give why it's false first: Carbs are abundant typically in times where non-carb items (prey and fresh veggies) are not. This adaptation of dogs eating carb items helps them survive until they can meet their primary diet needs. A possible side effect of this behavior in dog/cats/us is that the body goes into storage mode whenever large amount of carbs are being digested. This could possibly be an adaptive response to food availability. "Packing on weight for the winter" kind of thing.

Here's why the statement could be true: I may not be unnatural for carbs to be in the diet, but if an animal doesn't go into a cyclic eating pattern then it could be bad. It could turn the body's metabolism on to a constant storage mode. I see this happen with cats mostly.

Many people that have typically short lived dogs have switched to the raw all meat diet and found that their Great Danes and such live longer and healthier lives. It could be that a lot of these larger breed dogs are not able to incorporate the "fillers" on a regular basis. If it were simply cyclic additions of carbs it would be healthy, but most prepared foods incorporate them constantly.

On that note, because I have smaller, burn a lot of calories.. high energy dogs.. I use Proplan.. which I was surprised to not see on this poll. I worked for a vet for many years that loved this food.. and I use it for both cats and dogs. I will also say that Purina One is virtually the same thing as Proplan. Just different marketing goals.
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Old 05-15-2005, 05:09 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kenya_1977
Ok, first I'll put out a little disclaimer here and say that I haven't taken that much time to read through all these posts..

There's a little quote that caught my eye here in someone elses post.. that's true.. and false at the same time.. "All carbs are to them is a bunch of sugar that they don't need and that their bodies don't really know how to deal with."

I'll give why it's false first: Carbs are abundant typically in times where non-carb items (prey and fresh veggies) are not. This adaptation of dogs eating carb items helps them survive until they can meet their primary diet needs. A possible side effect of this behavior in dog/cats/us is that the body goes into storage mode whenever large amount of carbs are being digested. This could possibly be an adaptive response to food availability. "Packing on weight for the winter" kind of thing.

Here's why the statement could be true: I may not be unnatural for carbs to be in the diet, but if an animal doesn't go into a cyclic eating pattern then it could be bad. It could turn the body's metabolism on to a constant storage mode. I see this happen with cats mostly.

Many people that have typically short lived dogs have switched to the raw all meat diet and found that their Great Danes and such live longer and healthier lives. It could be that a lot of these larger breed dogs are not able to incorporate the "fillers" on a regular basis. If it were simply cyclic additions of carbs it would be healthy, but most prepared foods incorporate them constantly.

On that note, because I have smaller, burn a lot of calories.. high energy dogs.. I use Proplan.. which I was surprised to not see on this poll. I worked for a vet for many years that loved this food.. and I use it for both cats and dogs. I will also say that Purina One is virtually the same thing as Proplan. Just different marketing goals.
I disagree with many of your comments. I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say carbs are abundant when other food sources are not (in the wild, presumably)? There's virtually no documentation of wolves eating any carbs sources other than possibly stomach contents of small prey, or maybe herbivore poop. When times are tough, wolves eat mice and rabbits and smaller prey items, and possibly do some scavenging. They're not going out and grazing on a wheat field. There's no sort of seasonal cycle where wolves are eating prey items at one time and then grains and veggies at another. And dogs are essentially wolves, at least physiologically. I just don't know how it can be any plainer than that. Even pet food companies and sell-out vet nutrition professors like mine will admit that dogs/wolves are best adapted to getting their energy from fat and protein; that's how they pack on weight if necessary, not by carb-loading. We don't feed them lots of carbs because it's good for them or because they need it, we feed them lots of carbs because it's cheap and easily available and because the way kibble is made, it must have at least 40% carbohydrates to hold together in a convenient nugget during the extrusion process.
And unfortunately, commercial diets are just as unhealthy for all dogs as they are for Great Danes and other giant breeds. These dogs die so early because we've bred them to be so unnaturally huge and grow at such a fast, unhealthy rate that their skeletal systems break down, they get bone cancers, debilitating joint diseases, gastrointestinal torsion, etc. I just think that we may see the effects of species-inappropriate diets in these dogs a little more clearly, because they're already so physiologically stressed that they can't handle anything else. We see such improvements in these breeds with raw diets because they grow more slowly and evenly without the gross overabundance of sugar and calories that dog food provides and the presence of unadulterated bone, cartilage, etc. in the diet supports their skeletal system, among other reasons. This I know from experience, having an 'elderly' (by today's standards) Great Dane who knocks vets on their ass when I tell them his age, because they assume he's two or three years old.
Felicite
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Old 05-15-2005, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by felicitedanes
Ok David, here's some links if you're interested. I'm not sure these necessarily fit under the heading of unbiased, since I don't know too many people that bother to make a web page about nutrition if they don't have some sort of opinions about the issue. But, I can guarantee that none of these pages have a _commercial_ interest in convincing anyone to feed raw.

http://www.caberfeidh.com/
This is a Deerhound breeder who's been feeding raw for 20+ years and I think her articles are very straightforward and common sense. Go to the 'holistic care' link at the top of the page.

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/rawdog/
This one presents the other side of the issue on almost every common protest against raw food, some we've already discussed.

http://www.rawmeatybones.com/
And my favorite, this is Dr. Tom Lonsdale's site, an Australian vet who has devoted his whole career to educating people about pet foods and raw diets. I know him personally, and he's my hero. For anyone who's interested in research or a veterinarian's opinion, this page has got it, just go to RMB articles in the site menu at the top. If you go to the newsletter archive, there's even a rant I wrote to Tom last year during my nutrition class, listed under 'Persistent vet school madness' Tom's book is the best resource I know of on the topic. If you're seriously interested, I've got several copies of his book and you're welcome to have one if you send me your address. He gives me the copies that his seller returns because they've got a bent cover or a ripped page, so I can give them to any interested vet students. Please only take it if you'll really read it though, I've only got a few at the moment.

F.
Thank you so much for the links, Ill check them out later today. What you said about the weight control formulas makes total sense as well. If you dont mind, may I ask you for suggestions to tell customers who have overweight dogs and are looking for a different food to help them loose weight? If I managed to get them to switch to a raw diet, would their dog loose wieght? How long do you think it would take? Would the dog require more exersise? I assume the raw diet would increase the dogs energy (if all of what you said is true) but what if the owner doesnt have a large yard or time to walk their pooch every day? I remember reading that your dog spends 20 hours a day sleeping? Would an overweight dog who is fed kibble and sleeps all day and is switched to a raw diet still be able to sleep all day and loose weight? I guess it would take a little longer in this sinerio because a certian "balance" would have to be achieved. Well, I know I just bombarded you with a zillion questions and you can paraphrase in your response if you want :lol:

Thanks again for all the info, Im really going to try and put those wellness reps on the spot at the meeting. Not that Im anti-wellness or anything (yet) but they do have a lot of questions to answer for me now :twisted:

-David
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Old 05-19-2005, 12:28 AM
 
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Hey David,
I think overweight pets are a tough issue no matter what you're feeding them. You probably know this since you mentioned it, but I think it's more an issue of exercise and less an issue of diet, although diet's definitely a factor. People that overfeed and underexercise their dogs will probably do it regardless of whether they're feeding raw food or commercial food. My mother's dog is a perfect example. He's been on a raw diet for years but is still overweight because she just feeds him too damn much. Sometimes I see her give him a meaty bone for supper that's about two times the size of his head. And I tend to be really unsympathetic to the argument of 'not enough time to walk them' because I really don't think people should have dogs if they don't have the time to care for them properly. If they can't make time to do it themselves, then they should at least hire a dogwalker or something.
As far as raw diet, I do think they can have more energy with this type of diet, but it's more appropriate energy, rather than the sugar high they get from lots of carbs. I know quite a few people who switched to a raw diet and saw dogs who were complete nutjobs chill out and become much better pets with no other changes in their lifestyle. I think part of this is because of the more appropriate nutrition and part because chewing on meat and bones gives them a good outlet for some of the frustration domestic dogs often feel from lack of exercise, training, a job to do, you name it. If you're feeding them smaller portions for weight loss, I definitely think they're more satisfied chewing on an appropriately-sized piece of pork ribs (or whatever) for half an hour than they are inhaling their tiny bowl of diet kibble and then feeling hungry and unfulfilled until their next meal. My dog doesn't actually sleep 20 hours a day He is pretty mellow, which partly comes from his breed and the fact that he's older and fairly well-trained. He actually has a lot of energy for his age/breed/size, but like I said earlier, it's appropriate energy. I know that sounds kind of abstract, but what I mean by it is, he has more than enough energy to go hike and run in the dog park for several hours (which we do eat least a couple times a week, and walk in our neighborhood the other days), then he comes home, chews on his supper for half an hour and then he's perfectly content to lounge around and snooze for the rest of the evening. And he's always been that way, even when he was a year old, completely unlike the crazy, frustrated, bored, suburban dogs that we see so frequently at vet clinics, who are just climbing the walls all the time. I think the more natural behaviors (ike outdoor exercise, playing with other dogs, and feeding a species-appropriate diet) we can incorporate into their lives, the happier they'll be, the calmer they'll be, and more likely to be able to maintain a healthy weight.
I don't know if I actually answered any of your questions. I think this is kind of rambling, but I'm on vacation this week, so I'm not in the most orderly frame of mind. I guess my opinion is, no matter what they're feeding an overweight dog (although obviously I think a raw diet is best), they're still going to have to be strict about feeding less and exercising more, and I think doing one without the other is a pretty certain recipe for failure, at least for seeing results in a timely fashion. A raw diet may speed up their metabolism and correct a lot of metabolic imbalances, but they still can't just continue overfeeding their dogs and not exercising them and expect to see much change.
Anyway, hope this helps a little. Let me know how the Wellness meeting goes
Felicite
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:09 AM
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So does anyone know of a food that produces less waste than iams? After taking my newest dog to the vet they said I may want to switch, as his stomach might not like it. We are still treating him so too soon to tell if I need to, but less waste is a great thought.
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Old 05-19-2005, 01:50 AM
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I found Canidae to be excellent for that reason . . . you might want to give it a shot, and it's less expensive than the other "premium" foods. You'll have to go to a specialty shop to get it (don't think they sell it at Petco or Petsmart), but it's about the same price as mmost of the higher-end foods they sell at a Petco.

You can visit http://www.canidae.com and search for a distributor near you.
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Old 05-19-2005, 03:16 AM
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Our Shih Tzu has had a history of getting bladder stones and after the first time the vet suggested we put her on Science diet.Since then she has had 4 surgeries to remove them and the vet called the company and they said "Well, our product doesn't cause that kind of problem".
To make a long story short we started feeding her kibbles and bits and haven't had a problem since.
We are talking some of the stones they removed from her bladder were the size of a Tootsie pop !!!!
Mark
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Old 05-19-2005, 08:22 AM
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So does anyone know of a food that produces less waste than iams? After taking my newest dog to the vet they said I may want to switch, as his stomach might not like it. We are still treating him so too soon to tell if I need to, but less waste is a great thought.
Wysong.
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