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Old 02-03-2020, 07:17 PM
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Default Discussion of board tension

Quote:
Originally Posted by cougareyes View Post
It's funny the whole "heat the room" response is the programmed response, once someone ask this question; that is probably not an option they can do. If you have tried and failed other options, those would be good to share. When I needed help in this area, I got s couple of helpful responses; but mostly I was just shut down. My set up has been going all winter, with 2 thermometers is different areas, the temps consistently register between 70-72 on both, while my house has dropped as low as 59. My frogs have more than doubled in size, are active and bold.
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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Funny but you were fishing for a validation to what you were going to do anyway like so many people these days. Some of us have been doing this for a long time and still continue to post the most helpful things we can.
Philsuma and cougareyes, please don't take offense that I am using your comments as examples for the following sicussion, but it is rare that I see such good examples and I wanted to point them out.

These 2 comments sum up a tension I have seen on this board for quite a while now. On one hand, there are new folks that have new ideas and who want to push the envelope (Great!!!). On the other hand, there are folks that have been doing things long enough that they know (or think they do?) what the outcome of whatever has been proposed will be (also Great!!!). However, the new idea person feels attacked by the fact that their new idea is not immediately embraced by the old guard (of which, I am probably one) and posts defensively.

Folks, how can we avoid this dynamic? There are no bad guys here. Everybody is trying to work toward everybody's frogs being taken care of in the best possible way. And yet, we sometimes swing away at each other as if it's a zero sum game that someone has to win and someone has to lose.

1) Folks that are new to this board and to keeping frogs in general, you can't assume that you immediately know better than people that have been at this for a decade or more. No matter how smart you are, there is something to be said for having some experience under your belt. Maybe take constructive criticism as just that instead of taking it personally. Don't assume that anyone is out to get you.

2) My fellow old farts - just because an idea is new or sounds to you like it might not work, maybe we can still have a discussion about it and let folks know why we think it might not be the best way to go about things. Give the new folks the time of day. If they are still inclined to do what they set out to do, bite your tongue and let them do it. If we don't shoot them down reflexively, maybe they will feel comfortable enough to come back and share their experiences. If they do, any outcome is positive (barring the harm of our animals)! If they don't succeed, we all find out that it didn't work and we don't have to try that anymore. Even better, if they do succeed, we have inched the hobby forward and we are all better for it! If we don't encourage them, the new folks will just try their new stuff in private and never share the results. No one wins.

Now, to be clear, this does not pertain to things that have been established not to be in the best interests of the frogs. To me, this includes such topics as multi-species enclosures, hybridizing morphs, keeping frogs in a tank that is too small, and using organotin-based silicones like GE Silicone II for animal applications (yeah, some of you knew that was coming). However, there are lots of other topics that maybe some healthy discussion would create new husbandry/construction standards that will benefit everyone. Maybe lighting, substrates, fly and other bug culturing, and water features could fall into this category.

So, I am asking for some give on both sides. New folks, recognize that your "new" idea is just not statistically likely to be the next cool new thing that everybody associates with your name. Many of your new ideas have been tried many times and don't work and the old farts are the ones with the institutional memory that can let you know that. If they tell you that it has been tried before, I suggest you take that into account. Old farts, remember that every single husbandry practice you use now started out as a new idea at one point. How about if we don't just shut people down but work with them to come up with something new that might actually work?

This board, and perhaps our hobby in general, is in a bit of a stagnant phase to my eye. Maybe we can change that by adjusting how we treat each other and trying to move things forward. I am as change resistant as anybody, so this message is for me as much as it is for anyone else.

What do you folks think?

Mark
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-03-2020, 09:05 PM
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Default Re: Discussion of board tension

In addition to new v. old, there is an ideal v. practical tension. Online boards in general trend heavily towards the ideal because the most influential posters are often passionate people who are willing to make sacrifices on practicality to reach it. The problem is that they aren't representative of the hobby as a whole and the "all-or-nothing" view that permeates can leave the general hobbyist with "nothing", and that kind of exclusivity is bound to strangle a hobby. It's a balancing act, because ideals are ideals for a reason and we want to do right by the animals, but I think there is more room for discussions on risk/reward than this board tends to give.
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Old 02-03-2020, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: Discussion of board tension

Impossible to avoid as you see it.

I've been around and even hosted my alternate Forum to Dendroboard, so in 15 or so years, I've seen it all pretty much.

Facebook killed the forums and nothing will help/bring traffic back.

IMO, it's best to just put a 'let it all hang out' attitude and only censure the name calling and personal attacks and politic shyte ect.

There is no Kumbaya moment or Nirvana to strive for...there just isn't - people being people.
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Old 02-04-2020, 01:11 AM
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Default Re: Discussion of board tension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
Philsuma and cougareyes, please don't take offense that I am using your comments as examples for the following sicussion, but it is rare that I see such good examples and I wanted to point them out.



These 2 comments sum up a tension I have seen on this board for quite a while now. On one hand, there are new folks that have new ideas and who want to push the envelope (Great!!!). On the other hand, there are folks that have been doing things long enough that they know (or think they do?) what the outcome of whatever has been proposed will be (also Great!!!). However, the new idea person feels attacked by the fact that their new idea is not immediately embraced by the old guard (of which, I am probably one) and posts defensively.



Folks, how can we avoid this dynamic? There are no bad guys here. Everybody is trying to work toward everybody's frogs being taken care of in the best possible way. And yet, we sometimes swing away at each other as if it's a zero sum game that someone has to win and someone has to lose.



1) Folks that are new to this board and to keeping frogs in general, you can't assume that you immediately know better than people that have been at this for a decade or more. No matter how smart you are, there is something to be said for having some experience under your belt. Maybe take constructive criticism as just that instead of taking it personally. Don't assume that anyone is out to get you.



2) My fellow old farts - just because an idea is new or sounds to you like it might not work, maybe we can still have a discussion about it and let folks know why we think it might not be the best way to go about things. Give the new folks the time of day. If they are still inclined to do what they set out to do, bite your tongue and let them do it. If we don't shoot them down reflexively, maybe they will feel comfortable enough to come back and share their experiences. If they do, any outcome is positive (barring the harm of our animals)! If they don't succeed, we all find out that it didn't work and we don't have to try that anymore. Even better, if they do succeed, we have inched the hobby forward and we are all better for it! If we don't encourage them, the new folks will just try their new stuff in private and never share the results. No one wins.



Now, to be clear, this does not pertain to things that have been established not to be in the best interests of the frogs. To me, this includes such topics as multi-species enclosures, hybridizing morphs, keeping frogs in a tank that is too small, and using organotin-based silicones like GE Silicone II for animal applications (yeah, some of you knew that was coming). However, there are lots of other topics that maybe some healthy discussion would create new husbandry/construction standards that will benefit everyone. Maybe lighting, substrates, fly and other bug culturing, and water features could fall into this category.



So, I am asking for some give on both sides. New folks, recognize that your "new" idea is just not statistically likely to be the next cool new thing that everybody associates with your name. Many of your new ideas have been tried many times and don't work and the old farts are the ones with the institutional memory that can let you know that. If they tell you that it has been tried before, I suggest you take that into account. Old farts, remember that every single husbandry practice you use now started out as a new idea at one point. How about if we don't just shut people down but work with them to come up with something new that might actually work?



This board, and perhaps our hobby in general, is in a bit of a stagnant phase to my eye. Maybe we can change that by adjusting how we treat each other and trying to move things forward. I am as change resistant as anybody, so this message is for me as much as it is for anyone else.



What do you folks think?



Mark
I think this is certainly something to strive for. Will it work? Who knows, but it doesn't make my life more difficult to try.
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Old 02-04-2020, 01:24 AM
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Default Re: Discussion of board tension

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Impossible to avoid as you see it.

I've been around and even hosted my alternate Forum to Dendroboard, so in 15 or so years, I've seen it all pretty much.

Facebook killed the forums and nothing will help/bring traffic back.

IMO, it's best to just put a 'let it all hang out' attitude and only censure the name calling and personal attacks and politic shyte ect.

There is no Kumbaya moment or Nirvana to strive for...there just isn't - people being people.
I would have to agree with Phil.

I also think that facebook has created a self feeding beast. In that it rushes to the lowest common denominator in enforcing bad ideas. Those who try and enlighten those with poor ideas are labelled as trolls and driven off by the kumbaya attitude I find over there. I see if happen all the time in another hobby I have that has also been affected by the FB take over and it is infuriating. It helps to enforce wrong ideas and creates a lot of friction between the younger generation and the old guard who in most cases have spent a lifetime of hard research and education on the topic of hand and not just got their information from their FB feed.
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Old Yesterday, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Discussion of board tension

Some of these are pretty disappointing responses to me. I thought I had set the bar pretty low and for folks to say that they aren't even willing to extend themselves that far is disheartening. I have no desire to ever go to Facebook so the stakes for making this place worthwhile are high for me. I guess I appreciate your honesty, Phil, but nobody knows it all, even after 15 years (not that long in the grand scheme of things). There is always more to learn and that attitude certainly rubs a lot of people the wrong way. I can't contest your assessment of Facebook's role in all this but I can say that you might be wrong that this is the sole reason for the demise of your forum and the retreat of this one. Setting the wrong tone in a place like this can turn a lot of people off. Some folks have so much as said that in the Reviving DB thread.

So, I would still hope people try to be encouraging and lead folks gently rather than issuing ultimatums and telling people they are going to fail. All I can do is try to follow my own advice and hope other people follow suit. I don't think I am asking very much of people. As macg said, it doesn't make our lives more difficult to try.

Mark
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Old Today, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: Discussion of board tension

Many years ago I asked a question on a mailing list (it was *that* long ago) and got a slightly brusque response about searching the internet.

I explained that I didn't even know the right questions to ask, and just needed a springboard to narrow it down.

Sometimes it's not a bad idea to help people figure out what questions they need to be asking.

After a couple of months on various Facebook groups I've seen some eye-roll inducing stuff, but people gotta start somewhere.

What I see a lot of is an instant gratification mentality and regurgitation of bad info they got from Wikipedia or wherever. I get it, who has the time for that? But maybe every now and then it's worth a gentle correction, if only for the sake of the animals involved.
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