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Old 11-09-2015, 05:50 AM
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Default The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Hey guyz, I am writing to start a discussion, not an argument, okay? This will not be a short post; I shall save my etiquette question for another post.

I am beginning to see a serious downside to Facebook, specifically hobbyist groups on Facebook. Groups like ours--and orchidspecies.com, fcbs.org, and the various forums provide valuable info and/or forums for hobbyists to discuss issues and topics with professionals and with each other. But Facebook groups--like "Reptile Connection" or "Bioactive Buddies" provide a venue for one or two sentence answers. Huh? Doesn't anyone want to read anymore? Husbandry and horticulture are not rocket science--but "how do I take care of a snake" or "how do I grow roses" are NOT one to three sentence answers!

Moreso, these clowns do not even understand advice, and actually want to argue with sound advice. I would try to:
--make a point;
--explain why:
--cite or recommend a source(s) for greater detail.

For example, after a "warning" about mealworms eating lizards, I posted the following:

"Time out: it has come to my attention that some here still believe that mealworms or superworms can be dangerous to feed to some lizards. (The old, "I heard somewhere...") This is absolutely untrue. As part of a varied diet, all the available commercial insects are good foods if gut-loaded (although waxworms are actually rather fatty.) One merely has to show good sense and: 1) Do not overfeed at any one time; (2) be sensible about size. It is thought that this idea may have started with people seeing mealworms eating a lizard carcass--it's like with tropical fish--they started eating it AFTER it died. Mealworms do not gang up on lizards!

"I know that many people today get their info from online "sources." but there is no real substitute for basic texts--these are what provide the sound background. Yes info changes and improves-- as in any field. But you gotta do your own homework first! To recommend four good ones: Zimmerman, E. "Breeding Terrarium Animals;" desVosjoli, P. "The Lizard Keeper's Handbook;" Langerwerf, B. "Water Dragons;" Edmonds, D. "Frogs and Toads."

"Hope this helps."


And I got hammered... "Clearly you did not see the pics about what the mealworms did to the..." Then to top it off, came the live rodent feeders: "You feed you pets live insects, and judge us?!?" As if medium sized crickets left with tree frogs is akin to leaving a rat with a corn snake. When I asked to name a source--just one--that recommends feeding live rodents, I actually got resistance and arguments! (And of course, no real answer.)

Dig this--when I tagged articles and pictures of rodent damage I actually got:

"Just because a source agrees with you does not make it true."

Look I know you can find anything that "supports" any position. But I did not post anything at all controversial and was only trying to help (there is no real debate in the snake community about live feeding--except for starters, reluctant feeders or hots). I saw Paul Pruitt try to advise on collecting wild materials for amphibians and tried to help--again, we got arguments.

Look, I really do not care what idiots think--but there are pet's lives at stake here. it is like the anti-vaxxers, I fear for our kids. (I know some will point that, alas, pets are children, and these clowns do have a degree of property rights).

My other gripe is that I fear that--sooner rather than later--FB will swallow all our groups and members whole, as we spiral towards Idiocracy.

Is there any way to prevent the coming moron apocalypse? I thank you for reading this, and look forward to your thoughts.
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Old 11-10-2015, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

It's best to not waste time on morons.

This forum is easily accessible, and there are things Facebook groups can do well, like put a face and name to username and organize local clubs easily.

That said, the dietary results of certain feeders you mention may cause issue long term, and crickets are quite dangerous if too large to eat and there are enough to overwhelm the animal. Both stress then eat or chew up a live animal (especially tree frogs) so extras should not be left in the cage.

I'm talking from personal experience.

-Andrew
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Old 11-10-2015, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

No argument here--remember, I did say: 1) Do not overfeed; (2) be sensible about size. No book ever said put 20 adult crickets in a cage with baby day geckos... And for insectivores, the idea is a varied diet.

But what was important to me was not the argument itself--it is that these people have not read anything--and do not see that as at all problematic...

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Originally Posted by a hill View Post
It's best to not waste time on morons.

This forum is easily accessible, and there are things Facebook groups can do well, like put a face and name to username and organize local clubs easily.

That said, the dietary results of certain feeders you mention may cause issue long term, and crickets are quite dangerous if too large to eat and there are enough to overwhelm the animal. Both stress then eat or chew up a live animal (especially tree frogs) so extras should not be left in the cage.

I'm talking from personal experience.

-Andrew
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Old 11-10-2015, 09:11 PM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Until you are properly sourcing information in posts and replies it's still a tough thing to overcome.

Listing books to read verses linking to papers or articles or threads (of sound merit) works much better in this setting. Quite honestly, basic texts unless more of a true textbook written to an educated audience are going to be a waste of money in my experience.

That said, I'm old fashioned and like books! So using google or Amazon and linking to the specific page preview is more work, but still worthwhile. They can then easily buy the book.

If you're really really good, you will use your affiliate sales link and make money in the future from your efforts!

-Andrew
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Old 11-11-2015, 12:32 AM
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I know what you mean, I no longer offer advice on fish, I have over 30 years experience with them but people always know better.
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Old 11-12-2015, 08:39 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

I've recently tried to increase my visibility in the popular dart frog related facebook groups that I've found so far, and a couple plant related ones. I'm really not a huge fan of the format, but I hope to be breeding and selling frogs regularly for the first time after a decade only having a modest collection and doing some breeding; most of which was rendered void when the ice storm years ago wiped out most of what I had done... so for me and my future plans, I feel like it is a necessary evil.

As most who know me from here or the other forums can tell you: I tend to go on a bit ...I ramble: yet usually contained within those ramblings is a lot more detail then many people will bother to go into even on a forum, and it is much harder to do that on facebook... but sometimes it is necessary, or at least better; especially when people are asking how to do something.

The truth is I feel weird about typing a lot in a facebook comment, so a lot of the time I don't even bother. I just post my pics respond to whatever comments there are, occasionally ask a brief specific question or comment on someone else's stuff, and occasionally a good discussion is sparked.

But...
for the most part as a forum for real discussion and getting good advice it does not in my opinion serve the best interests of the hobby or the people using that venue to get the bulk of their information... They are probably hurting themselves, and not doing as well by their animals if they are relying on facebook to learn how to actually do the the hobby they are participating in.

I hate to say it but people who are relying on that avenue "to learn" rather then forums, books, and specific sites related to the hobby and/or animal are kinda being lazy IMHO, (and I'm usually all for being lazy!). My hope is most are going beyond facebook, and maybe facebook helps introduce new people that will dive into the deep end of the pool, but I'm afraid more kids are just sticking to the shallow end and some that should be reading and listening more then talking are to prone to talk on facebook when they shouldn't. You see bad or questionable advice/info on the forums but I think people are a bit more reluctant to post that kinda stuff until they are fairly sure they know what they are talking about, and that's a good thing... Plus I think we all know the shallow end of the pool is where the most pee is!!!

This quote comes to mind...

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

Abraham Lincoln


Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/qu...0tBtj6ZbUoI.99


...And I think people failing to heed that good advice is more likely to occur and not be corrected on Facebook.
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Old 11-13-2015, 03:35 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
sometimes it is necessary, or at least better; especially when people are asking how to do something. ... But...
for the most part as a forum for real discussion and getting good advice it does not in my opinion serve the best interests of the hobby or the people using that venue to get the bulk of their information... They are probably hurting themselves, and not doing as well by their animals if they are relying on facebook to learn how to actually do the the hobby they are participating in.

I hate to say it but people who are relying on that avenue "to learn" rather then forums, books, and specific sites related to the hobby and/or animal are kinda being lazy IMHO, (and I'm usually all for being lazy!). ...And I think people failing to heed that good advice is more likely to occur and not be corrected on Facebook.
Pretty much sums up the way I see it, Dave. I don't really care if anyone agrees with me, but when I ask to name me one source--one--that says it is okay to live feed rodents, and all I get is backtalk, I realize that this is a short road to Idiocracy.

2) And Zerelli, you know this one: When I was trying to explain about insects and dead lizards, it reminded me of the person who storms into the pet shop:

"You said these were community fish, they were eating the gourami!!"

--No (fool), your fish died during the night, and they were picking on the carcass-the neons and platies were picking on a carcass...

Except now with FB they can post pictures and say they have proof!

3) A woman asked what is the best substrate for bearded dragons; i replied by recommending desVosjoli' book. She replied: "Why can't you just answer my question?" Then claimed she couldn't afford it...

Okay, I wasn't going to say, "then you can't afford a bearded dragon" --I know times are tough for some people. But she could still do real research (now, if she doesn't have the time for that, then no, she should not have a pet...)

But I still have another gripe: The way people talk to each other. I shall save that for another post...
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Old 11-13-2015, 04:35 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Facebook is a pox on everything, not just this hobby... Its all part of the destruction of the attention span of the human animal LoL

I can't even imagine what the kids who are growing up watching 6 sec vine videos (one after the other) are going to be like when they are older; and now this, and now this, and now this, and now this...

Hope this wasn't too off topic but I think its all related.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:40 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Cam 1941, you must be--a goddamn genius!

https://youtu.be/f2yLE6eaxwI

Seriously bro, you could not be more right...
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Old 11-13-2015, 07:33 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Ya I agree guys, and see I actually have Attention deficit Disorder... But it has never stopped me from reading a book, a forum post or made it necessary to treat someone on the Internet as less then human.

I might get distracted by a shiny object, and it may take a few minutes longer, but if you've got time to blast someone for suggesting a good book or another good resource instead of just giving you a 2 second sound bite that might actually do more harm then good: then you had the time to check a forum, read a website, or order a book off amazon.

I'm not saying social media doesn't have its place, but it seems to be better suited for people who already know what they are doing to share pics and coments rather then a good place for someone starting out to learn the nuts and bolts of the hobby.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For newbies...

Don't be afraid to ask questions but be willing to actually look for the answer, and do yourself and your animals the service of putting more then 10-15 minutes into learning how to set up a proper habitat and take care of an animal. And please gather information from multiple sources. It annoys me when people talk to one vendor/breeder and then take everything they say as gospel truth, because the person was nice and maybe cut them a deal.

As for why we like people to search first: because a common quick question should be easy to find multiple good answers for quickly. If you can't evaluate information to know that it is a good answer then you need to do more research or you are going to have problems even if you do get a quick answer... And when you have to give a quick answer dozens or hundreds of times, it is no longer "quick" for the people giving answers.

Buying and caring for animals isn't ordering fast food... don't treat it as such. Most of the people taking your fast food order would rather be doing something else and they get paid. We'd rather devote our time to the more interesting aspects of the hobby and helping people that seem to actually care enough to put some effort in... and we typically don't get paid for that.
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Old 11-13-2015, 05:37 PM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Dave, you too are a goddamn genius... I am going to keep this, and use parts of it as I interact with the great unwashed. Very well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
Ya I agree guys, and see I actually have Attention deficit Disorder... But it has never stopped me from reading a book, a forum post or made it necessary to treat someone on the Internet as less then human.

I might get distracted by a shiny object, and it may take a few minutes longer, but if you've got time to blast someone for suggesting a good book or another good resource instead of just giving you a 2 second sound bite that might actually do more harm then good: then you had the time to check a forum, read a website, or order a book off amazon.

I'm not saying social media doesn't have its place, but it seems to be better suited for people who already know what they are doing to share pics and coments rather then a good place for someone starting out to learn the nuts and bolts of the hobby.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For newbies...

Don't be afraid to ask questions but be willing to actually look for the answer, and do yourself and your animals the service of putting more then 10-15 minutes into learning how to set up a proper habitat and take care of an animal. And please gather information from multiple sources. It annoys me when people talk to one vendor/breeder and then take everything they say as gospel truth, because the person was nice and maybe cut them a deal.

As for why we like people to search first: because a common quick question should be easy to find multiple good answers for quickly. If you can't evaluate information to know that it is a good answer then you need to do more research or you are going to have problems even if you do get a quick answer... And when you have to give a quick answer dozens or hundreds of times, it is no longer "quick" for the people giving answers.

Buying and caring for animals isn't ordering fast food... don't treat it as such. Most of the people taking your fast food order would rather be doing something else and they get paid. We'd rather devote our time to the more interesting aspects of the hobby and helping people that seem to actually care enough to put some effort in... and we typically don't get paid for that.
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Old 11-14-2015, 10:09 PM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

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Is there any way to prevent the coming moron apocalypse? I thank you for reading this, and look forward to your thoughts.
Yes there is and I warned about this in the past, the problem is there is no will power to do so here or at most forums.

As bad as we may think face bookers are, we really aren't any better. We had plenty of warning, plenty of suggestions and as a community we took the path of least resistance, just like a facebook post.
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Old 11-15-2015, 03:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Pubfiction View Post
Yes there is and I warned about this in the past, the problem is there is no will power to do so here or at most forums.

As bad as we may think face bookers are, we really aren't any better. We had plenty of warning, plenty of suggestions and as a community we took the path of least resistance, just like a facebook post.
Can you elaborate a little? ...I'm honestly not sure what is being eluded to/what happened ...

------------------------------------------------------

As for the morons: ...unfortunately the more people join the hobby, you get an increase in those too, but also the more people come the more become experts, more techniques and advances are made, and the more new productsare developed for our use. Sometimes a moron even eventually ends up becoming an expert, and an asset to the community/hobby

And...
To be fair sometimes some of us just need to not post If we can't be cool. I do think even though I totally get it often times, that we could be more patient with people in many cases, or perhaps at least more realistic in our expectations, and pragmatic in our reactions. It is a delicate balance because sometimes, ya ...the claws need to come out, but often times (and I don't always follow my own advice), we need to let someone else do the talking If we aren't in the mood to be an ambassador for the hobby.

There are a lot of posts/threads that I start typing responses to and then just stop because It occurs to me I have more to loose then gain by getting involved in that drama trap... Pick your battles

Just a little devil's advocate, because we aren't perfect either
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:09 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

I have and others have made posts indicating the need for an overhaul of the reference articles as well as pushes to create a better system like a wiki. Nothing really came of those and those are pretty easy things to do.

Facebook's big advantage is a lot of people are already signed up for it. Joining or leaving a group is just a single button click. Yes its easy. Forums on the other hand require people to sign up for each one. When we ask people to search we often ask them to dig through chapters of information to find the morsels they need. Maybe we could better present that information, not really maybe, I know we could.

One thing we should be careful not to do is to confuse laziness with efficiency. Laziness is when you cause significant harm because you simply don't want to do the work to get a job done well or right. Efficiency which is often confused with laziness, is when you find a easier, better or faster way to get a job done. I often, and I mean on a daily basis see people making assertions that all sorts of things done by computers to smart phones are lazy but in fact they are simply superior ways to do something. Forums themselves are all about efficiency, why don't we just write this all down on paper call it a book? Obviously because its so much more effective to have dynamic content developing in real time.

When a person asks a question, they might just be efficient, and an efficient answer could suffice. For instance, reading a book that is a hundred pages long might be great for teaching someone how to care for an animal, however a 3 page care sheet is often an effective solution as well. And whatever is fastest is going to be best for a typical facebooker that just bought an animal and needs a crash course on keeping it alive for the first week.

Facebook is obviously not a great media, largely because it is a very poor place for referencing information. Great posts that are full of information quickly disappear and are no longer searchable. But it is heavily used something we must accept.

So what could a place like this do? Simple make it so people can log in to this very forum with their facebook account removing the barrier of creating an account. Then better organize information and link to it, such as how wikis do it. Then whenever someone asks a question on facebook, they can be given a direct link to such a wikipage or post, if they need further clarification a click or 2 later then can make a post on this forum. Honestly I am in way more groups on facebook than on forums just because keeping track of all the logins and moving from one forum to the next takes more time then scaning through facebook feeds. The sad thing? Vertical scope actually owns enough different forums to make a single login, a unified experience and to invest in the infrastructure to take back the market from facebook. Instead they choose to do nothing.
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Old 11-15-2015, 04:58 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

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. And for insectivores, the idea is a varied diet.
Show me the study that demonstrates that this is true..

That is one of the more longstanding dogmatic arguments for feeding insectivores as nutritionally it doesn't really make much difference as the deficiencies in nutrients tends to be very similar across the board (and this is before we consider things like dusting supplements are for optimizing crickets but since the deficiencies are so similar it works for the other invertebrates as well.

Behaviorally it can make a difference as different invertebrates can have some differences that induce different foraging behaviors that are more natural (we can argue if it is actually benefits the animal but that is another topic).

Actually there was a good study that showed better growth on mealworms than on crickets. (see Rich, C. Nelson, and Larry G. Talent. "The effects of prey species on food conversion efficiency and growth of an insectivorous lizard." Zoo biology 27.3 (2008): 181-187.).)

One of the greatest problems with the internet is the impact it has had on society. Now all it takes is a click of the button and you can join a group of people who have the same beliefs as you which in turn allows the group to support those beliefs regardless if they are correct or not as well as support denials that prove otherwise.

Some comments

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Old 11-15-2015, 05:05 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

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When a person asks a question, they might just be efficient, and an efficient answer could suffice. For instance, reading a book that is a hundred pages long might be great for teaching someone how to care for an animal, however a 3 page care sheet is often an effective solution as well. And whatever is fastest is going to be best for a typical facebooker that just bought an animal and needs a crash course on keeping it alive for the first week. .
Actually to no small extent it is the advancement of the herpetocultural hobby to the cookbook stage that is driving a lot of these problems as these don't require the person to actually know or learn anything about the animal. Once a group of people have success with a "recipe" there is going to be a lot of resistance to change as "it worked" even if that method isn't optimal when new information is included.

Some comments

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Old 11-15-2015, 08:33 AM
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I have and others have made posts indicating the need for an overhaul of the reference articles as well as pushes to create a better system like a wiki. Nothing really came of those and those are pretty easy things to do....
Ok I feel a bit more up to speed now, and agree with pretty much all that. I for one had wanted to get good call recordings/vids of species morphs we don't have those for at all or need better quality ones for.... If I remember several people spoke up that they liked the idea, but no one with the actual frogs used the Babbler app I suggested or something else and uploaded that info and linked it to care sheets. My collection has grown a lot recently so I do plan to get around to doing some of that myself and searching YouTube for good ones that already exist.

Like a lot of people. I've read a lot of the popular dart frog books, but my memory is crap. I'm confident I can care for pretty much any dart in the hobby and I do read or skim my fair share of papers but there are others that know that stiff backwards and forwards. Hell I can't even tell you which frogs are from what country a lot of the time because of my crap memory so I don't feel qualified to really dissect and retool the care sheets.... I did however do that plant vendor list and have tried for years to get it sticky status but it never happens


Quote:
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Actually to no small extent it is the advancement of the herpetocultural hobby to the cookbook stage that is driving a lot of these problems as these don't require the person to actually know or learn anything about the animal. Once a group of people have success with a "recipe" there is going to be a lot of resistance to change as "it worked" even if that method isn't optimal when new information is included.

Some comments

Ed
Ed I don't disagree but I admit I sometimes fall into citing "the cookbook" like if someone asks "how many frogs can I put into x tank size"? ...I try to add some qualifiers and extra info when I can but I'm often not sure how to avoid it entirely from a pragmatic standpoint, because I know that often people need/want at least a starting point (immediately), and many won't accept or put in the time to get and understand the longer/better answer.

So It isn't ideal, but I'm not sure how we get around it and still give people at least some set of minimum standards to start from, while keeping people who aren't quite as patient/detail oriented on either side contributing and partkcipating

We are kinda already "the hard asses" of the herp world in many people's eyes, and we have both benefited and suffered from that. I'm not sure how much better we can do realistically. I think it probably hinges on each and everyone of us requiring similar self discipline from ourselves that we ask from others.

That sometimes means refraining from blasting the newb even when it is deserved and being diplomatic, other times it means taking the time to go into more detail then most others might not... and I'm sure a myriad of other ways.

So I don't really disagree, I guess what I'm asking is how do we actually go about being better in that way? ...and perhaps more importantly: how do we get other's to do that without seeming elitist or worse?

Perhaps and to partly answer my own question, It really does come down to each and everyone of us making a conscience effort to have and use the same self discipline we are asking from others? (Just to be clear I think you do really well at this, and when you get sassy it is justified/appropriate 99% of the time).

We want other people to be better basically... To have any hope of pulling that off we have to be better too, right???

...I'm pretty sure most will agree on that point, but the nuts and bolts of how to do that, and get other people to do it, and appreciate when it is done; I think eludes many of us (including myself) much of the time... and we probably need to dive into that and how best to communicate the plan to others and get them onboard without alienating them in process.

Maybe we need "A call to arms!!! (Making a better hobby by being a better hobbyist)" thread/sticky. One that is not only there to brainstorm ideas on how to do it, but also challenges people, and even documents what we did and what impact it had on us/others.

For example some challenges might be...

1. Walk away from one post/thread that annoyed you to the point you would usually go off on someone.

2. Read and respond in a positive way one thread/post that you wouldn't normally bother to get involved in.

3. Make a point to answer at least one annoying and to often repeated newbie question a day... and be nice

4. Perform a hobby related random act of kindness.

5. Go into more detail on the next post you are tempted to just give a quick/easy answer or comment to.

6. Complement one persons frog and/or viv pics a day,

7. Make a point of reading one hobby related science article today.

8. Make a point of giving someone a "like" or "thanks".

9. Read one of Dave's super long/rambling posts in its a entirety

10. ???
Etc... Etc... and many of these could be combined/easily repeated.

We could make a general list of these and try to get people to make a habit of checking off a couple (mentally) every time they say/do something here, or hobby related at all... and keep it bumped/active as much as possible even if stickied, so it shows up and remind's people.
Groundhog and boabab95 like this.
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Old 11-15-2015, 03:00 PM
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Ed, I am calling "not fair" on this one. It's a question of scale, and I was talking to rank amateurs, not peers. To cite studies would have been meaningless. All I did was:

1) Make a point;
2) Explain why in simple terms;
3) Suggest further reading (so yes, I was making a simple "argument from authority"--consider the audience.).

Besides, the argument, as I understood it, was never nutritional but behavioral. Many arboreal lizards, especially chameleons, have been seen to get "bored" on one prey item--and sometimes rather quickly. (DesVosjoli, Langerwerf, Langerwerf pers. comm., my own observations, etc.)* While beyond the scope of this discussion, it is interesting that the terrestrial "tongue flickers" do seem less susceptible to this nonsense** (okay, maybe not nonsense; were I in the joint I'd probably get sick of hot dogs every day )

But here, you did touch on my actual question. Educators call it "scaffolding," the idea that knowledge is built on knowledge. In other words, one must first learn ABC before we can teach them DEF. Not telling you anything you don't know--but how do you engage these discussions with young people who actually argue that they do not have to read the basic manuals and texts? (Actually, adults do this too: see creationists, climate change deniers, anti-vaccine clowns, etc.,) I myself learn about the meaty stuff by actually reading the "references" section--but I fear that is probably pretty rare...

Wouldn't you agree that, for a teenager, reading books in the AVS library--whatever its flaws--is better than just checking Facebook? (And alas, that does seem to be a real dichotomy.) The collective behavior you mention--what social scientists call "confirmation bias"--certainly existed before Facebook--but now it is greatly amplified. At the risk of sounding sanctimonious, my real concern is the welfare of the animals as something beyond learning tools...

*of course, I'm not counting the little bastards who decide they only want waxworms (I'm sure I'm not the only here!)

** though I've never seen a skink eat a beetle--simple bad taste?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Show me the study that demonstrates that this is true..

That is one of the more longstanding dogmatic arguments for feeding insectivores as nutritionally it doesn't really make much difference as the deficiencies in nutrients tends to be very similar across the board (and this is before we consider things like dusting supplements are for optimizing crickets but since the deficiencies are so similar it works for the other invertebrates as well.

Behaviorally it can make a difference as different invertebrates can have some differences that induce different foraging behaviors that are more natural (we can argue if it is actually benefits the animal but that is another topic).

Actually there was a good study that showed better growth on mealworms than on crickets. (see Rich, C. Nelson, and Larry G. Talent. "The effects of prey species on food conversion efficiency and growth of an insectivorous lizard." Zoo biology 27.3 (2008): 181-187.).)

One of the greatest problems with the internet is the impact it has had on society. Now all it takes is a click of the button and you can join a group of people who have the same beliefs as you which in turn allows the group to support those beliefs regardless if they are correct or not as well as support denials that prove otherwise.

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Ed
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Old 11-16-2015, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
Ed, I am calling "not fair" on this one. It's a question of scale, and I was talking to rank amateurs, not peers. To cite studies would have been meaningless. All I did was:
I thought the emoticon at the end would have made it clear that I wasn't that serious about the request for a citation ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
Besides, the argument, as I understood it, was never nutritional but behavioral. Many arboreal lizards, especially chameleons, have been seen to get "bored" on one prey item--and sometimes rather quickly. (DesVosjoli, Langerwerf, Langerwerf pers. comm., my own observations, etc.)*
All of those claims were based on a single study done with C. senegalensis but in the study the chameleons never refused to accept the commonly fed insect, they simply showed a preference for the least offered prey species and this was interpreted as a method by which the lizards dealt with potential nutritional deficiencies (see Eason, Perri K. "The effect of recent diet on prey choice in Senegalese chameleons (Chamaeleo senegalensis)." Journal of Herpetology (1990): 383-387. ). The insects were also not dusted with an appropriate supplement so that is a plausible claim. Now this is different than what is seen with "prey satiation" in chameleons today and when those articles and books were written. In those cases we are seeing that the prey species were totally refused leading to starvation which isn't the same as the documented study.

In turn I offer the following hypothesis ... vitamin A deficiency is not uncommon in captive chameleons in no small part due to the many years of beta carotene being the sole source of vitamin A or only small doses of preformed A were offered the animals. As with frogs, vitamin A deficient chameleons develop squamous metaplasia where the mucous secreting cells stop secreting mucous. This impact feeding in two ways the first is that it changes the ability to capture prey species and second it changes the ability to uptake nutrients. Now if the chameleon is modifying its dietary choices to resolve nutrient deficiencies then either or both of the following will change prey acceptance via "learning": 1. the chameleon has difficulty in capturing the prey item and as a consequence develops an aversion due to the inability and the lost calories. 2. The nutritional deficiency choice theory is correct and as the animal isn't meeting it's nutritional requirements it ignores those prey species as insufficient.

If you want to discuss it further we can take it to e-mail so we don't derail this thread too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
Wouldn't you agree that, for a teenager, reading books in the AVS library--whatever its flaws--is better than just checking Facebook? (And alas, that does seem to be a real dichotomy.) The collective behavior you mention--what social scientists call "confirmation bias"--certainly existed before Facebook--but now it is greatly amplified. At the risk of sounding sanctimonious, my real concern is the welfare of the animals as something beyond learning tools...
Actually I often recommend the AVS series. You actually provided a good example of what I was referring to with the prey satiation issue. The rote answer was accepted without any follow-up over the years to see if there could be an alternate possibility. This is one of the reasons that I tend to post the citations from where I gleaned that information while downplaying my background experience as I think it's critical for people to look at the real source as opposed to accepting the cookbook answers (and one of the reasons I often deal directly with dogma that should be questioned).

It is that amplification of the "confirmation bias" that is currently hurting not only the frog hobby but the herpetocultural community overall in my opinion as its too easy for one or more people to establish themselves as experts despite a fundamental lack of understanding on the topic. All they tend to do is regurgitate items that have been haphazardly collected from the internet. Over the years I've often found that the only way to deal with that kind of information is to debunk it by including information that clearly isn't just my
opinion (and we've seen how often it goes bust here).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
** though I've never seen a skink eat a beetle--simple bad taste?
Could also be that it wasn't hungry enough ...

Some comments

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Old 11-16-2015, 12:54 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

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Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
Ed I don't disagree but I admit I sometimes fall into citing "the cookbook" like if someone asks "how many frogs can I put into x tank size"? ...I try to add some qualifiers and extra info when I can but I'm often not sure how to avoid it entirely from a pragmatic standpoint, because I know that often people need/want at least a starting point (immediately), and many won't accept or put in the time to get and understand the longer/better answer.
And there in lies a portion of the problem. For some reason it has become more and more acceptable to simply look for the easiest answer and initially go with that regardless if there is a better answer available. People often seem to go with the answer that is given the most frequently and consistently use the " popularity" of an answer as the criteria for which is the best answer. The more people that say it means that it's more likely to be true right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
So It isn't ideal, but I'm not sure how we get around it and still give people at least some set of minimum standards to start from, while keeping people who aren't quite as patient/detail oriented on either side contributing and partkcipating
I think if people look to prevent things from be accepted simply because it is dogma it would go a long way ... for example the attempt to equate the volume of a cube as a determinate on how many frogs should be in an enclosure regardless of the amount of surface area or the suitability of the habitat, or how the resources were distributed etc? That was a hard rule that if you violated it you were automatically evil and incompetent but if you kept them in the "appropriate" numbers in an poorly set up enclosure it wasn't as bad as the exceeding the numbers/gallon rule.
Or how about the whole that tinctorious should only be kept in pairs or male heavy groups which ignores the fact that the vast majority of those frogs were originally kept in groups without any significant issues being reported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
We are kinda already "the hard asses" of the herp world in many people's eyes, and we have both benefited and suffered from that. I'm not sure how much better we can do realistically. I think it probably hinges on each and everyone of us requiring similar self discipline from ourselves that we ask from others.
If you think we are the hard asses, try going onto the chameleon forums and discuss dosing ratios of vitamins or using synthetic vitamins or even vitamin A in some cases. Or try the venomous forums with venomoid as the topic of conversation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
So I don't really disagree, I guess what I'm asking is how do we actually go about being better in that way? ...and perhaps more importantly: how do we get other's to do that without seeming elitist or worse?
And there in lies the crux. As people rely more and more on cookbook recipes the greater the resistance to novel attempts and ideas overall ("after all why fix it if it ain't broke" mentality becomes the ruling class) or the more they are going to resist at giving more in depth answers as they didn't need them ...



Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
...I'm pretty sure most will agree on that point, but the nuts and bolts of how to do that, and get other people to do it, and appreciate when it is done; I think eludes many of us (including myself) much of the time... and we probably need to dive into that and how best to communicate the plan to others and get them onboard without alienating them in process.
Actually you often work on discussions for which I no longer have the patience and do it well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dendro Dave View Post
9. Read one of Dave's super long/rambling posts in its a entirety
See I read it all the way through ...


Some comments

Ed
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Old 11-16-2015, 11:10 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
And there in lies a portion of the problem. For some reason it has become more and more acceptable to simply look for the easiest answer and initially go with that regardless if there is a better answer available. People often seem to go with the answer that is given the most frequently and consistently use the " popularity" of an answer as the criteria for which is the best answer. The more people that say it means that it's more likely to be true right?
Ya, I guess I'll just keep doing what I'm doing for the most part since I do usually go into more detail and add qualifying statements. I guess I'll work more on subtly trying to get other people to do the same


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
I think if people look to prevent things from be accepted simply because it is dogma it would go a long way ... for example the attempt to equate the volume of a cube as a determinate on how many frogs should be in an enclosure regardless of the amount of surface area or the suitability of the habitat, or how the resources were distributed etc? That was a hard rule that if you violated it you were automatically evil and incompetent but if you kept them in the "appropriate" numbers in an poorly set up enclosure it wasn't as bad as the exceeding the numbers/gallon rule.
Or how about the whole that tinctorious should only be kept in pairs or male heavy groups which ignores the fact that the vast majority of those frogs were originally kept in groups without any significant issues being reported.
Agreed, though I must admit I was part of the "Tincs aren't group frogs" bandwagon, but am more open to it now that I've heard of more people who I think probably know what they are doing having success. What soured me on the idea personally besides anecdotal reports was watching 2 male azureus beat the hell out of each other from one end to the other and back in a densely planted 30gal for the sake of the female in the tank I guess. I had to pull one because they were chasing each other down to restart the fight and there looked to be no end in sight even after 10+ minutes. I have some Koetari coming though that I may try in a group.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
If you think we are the hard asses, try going onto the chameleon forums and discuss dosing ratios of vitamins or using synthetic vitamins or even vitamin A in some cases. Or try the venomous forums with venomoid as the topic of conversation.
Ha, my kinda people!!! ...I've thought about chameleons. I had a WC rudis, and a little tiny WC one that was supposed to be vivarium suitable (to lazy to look up the name) but neither made it more then a month after the reptile show. I've had so much more success with CB, I pretty much won't do WC unless they've been treated or it is the only way to get something pretty much. Wish I could find a good flying gecko breeder. Love those guys!!! ...Not a fan of the Venomoids.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
And there in lies the crux. As people rely more and more on cookbook recipes the greater the resistance to novel attempts and ideas overall ("after all why fix it if it ain't broke" mentality becomes the ruling class) or the more they are going to resist at giving more in depth answers as they didn't need them ...
So we'll just have to politely keep shoving it down their throat ...I'm fine with that



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Actually you often work on discussions for which I no longer have the patience and do it well.



See I read it all the way through ...


Some comments

Ed
Thanks!!! Doin what I can... with what I got Sadly that is limited because i have the short term memory of a gold fish... Once around the bowl, and it's all new to me

My personal favorite is the 100 times I've attempted to debunk the notion that any temperate moss will go dormant and/or die in a tropical vivarium.

And...
I think you know, but let me say again that I really appreciate having you around here, and what you do on the forums Ed, and that goes for all the other people who also often serve as the voice of reason at times, back up their claims with sources, and challenge other's assumptions... Including my own occasionally
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Old 11-16-2015, 10:57 PM
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Ah, the emoticon... Boy I must be a luddite... That is one aspect of communication that has always vexed--one cannot hear tone, or see body language...

Doesn't the larger point that you, Dave and I make apply to other areas of life? E.g., "I know this because XYZ say so?" The point I want to reiterate is that with younger people and/or beginners, I tend to opt for the "argument from authority" (i.e., read the %[email protected]!# book) Learn some real basics, then we can talk (I'm sure some of the veterans remember the days of actually enjoying reading "Breeding Terrarium Animals" and before that, "Your Terrarium!")

But nowadays, I can learn it in 20 minutes because it said so on ________. I am still galled by my recent experience trying to explain the difference between feeding live insects and live rodents. How the latter is usually frowned upon (except for pinkies, some hots, etc.)

--Posted pics of rodent damage, got resistance;
--When I repeatedly asked for one text--one--that recommends live feeding, got several evasions.

Then it dawned on me--these people bought the pets and the gear but not the manuals--after all, just get on Facebook! They should learn the basics. And for many keepers, I am not at all uncomfortable with repeating some dogma--as in, don't feed live rats! (Except maybe to velociraptors )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
I thought the emoticon at the end would have made it clear that I wasn't that serious about the request for a citation ....



All of those claims were based on a single study done with C. senegalensis but in the study the chameleons never refused to accept the commonly fed insect, they simply showed a preference for the least offered prey species and this was interpreted as a method by which the lizards dealt with potential nutritional deficiencies (see Eason, Perri K. "The effect of recent diet on prey choice in Senegalese chameleons (Chamaeleo senegalensis)." Journal of Herpetology (1990): 383-387. ). The insects were also not dusted with an appropriate supplement so that is a plausible claim. Now this is different than what is seen with "prey satiation" in chameleons today and when those articles and books were written. In those cases we are seeing that the prey species were totally refused leading to starvation which isn't the same as the documented study.

In turn I offer the following hypothesis ... vitamin A deficiency is not uncommon in captive chameleons in no small part due to the many years of beta carotene being the sole source of vitamin A or only small doses of preformed A were offered the animals. As with frogs, vitamin A deficient chameleons develop squamous metaplasia where the mucous secreting cells stop secreting mucous. This impact feeding in two ways the first is that it changes the ability to capture prey species and second it changes the ability to uptake nutrients. Now if the chameleon is modifying its dietary choices to resolve nutrient deficiencies then either or both of the following will change prey acceptance via "learning": 1. the chameleon has difficulty in capturing the prey item and as a consequence develops an aversion due to the inability and the lost calories. 2. The nutritional deficiency choice theory is correct and as the animal isn't meeting it's nutritional requirements it ignores those prey species as insufficient.

If you want to discuss it further we can take it to e-mail so we don't derail this thread too much.



Actually I often recommend the AVS series. You actually provided a good example of what I was referring to with the prey satiation issue. The rote answer was accepted without any follow-up over the years to see if there could be an alternate possibility. This is one of the reasons that I tend to post the citations from where I gleaned that information while downplaying my background experience as I think it's critical for people to look at the real source as opposed to accepting the cookbook answers (and one of the reasons I often deal directly with dogma that should be questioned).

It is that amplification of the "confirmation bias" that is currently hurting not only the frog hobby but the herpetocultural community overall in my opinion as its too easy for one or more people to establish themselves as experts despite a fundamental lack of understanding on the topic. All they tend to do is regurgitate items that have been haphazardly collected from the internet. Over the years I've often found that the only way to deal with that kind of information is to debunk it by including information that clearly isn't just my
opinion (and we've seen how often it goes bust here).




Could also be that it wasn't hungry enough ...

Some comments

Ed
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Old 11-17-2015, 03:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
Ah, the emoticon... Boy I must be a luddite... That is one aspect of communication that has always vexed--one cannot hear tone, or see body language...

Doesn't the larger point that you, Dave and I make apply to other areas of life? E.g., "I know this because XYZ say so?" The point I want to reiterate is that with younger people and/or beginners, I tend to opt for the "argument from authority" (i.e., read the %[email protected]!# book) Learn some real basics, then we can talk (I'm sure some of the veterans remember the days of actually enjoying reading "Breeding Terrarium Animals" and before that, "Your Terrarium!")

But nowadays, I can learn it in 20 minutes because it said so on ________. I am still galled by my recent experience trying to explain the difference between feeding live insects and live rodents. How the latter is usually frowned upon (except for pinkies, some hots, etc.)

--Posted pics of rodent damage, got resistance;
--When I repeatedly asked for one text--one--that recommends live feeding, got several evasions.

Then it dawned on me--these people bought the pets and the gear but not the manuals--after all, just get on Facebook! They should learn the basics. And for many keepers, I am not at all uncomfortable with repeating some dogma--as in, don't feed live rats! (Except maybe to velociraptors )
That is exactly why I use so many of them, to kinda make up for the inherent deficiency in this form of communication

Yes it applies, and you have the ever present hurdle of getting past peoples overwhelming tendency to believe what they want to believe because the reality doesn't suit their whims.

So many of us are always on guard, quick to go on the defensive anytime people say or do something we don't like... sometimes it is justified... Like every time I do it BUT... Where is the emphasis on fighting the enemy within? ...arguably the most dangerous/destructive foe we will ever face. What was done to arm us against this foe, and what are we doing to arm our children?

Yes children need to be armed... and well, at that!!! Because with out the tools to find and slay their own demons they will become demons... they'll become like us, and that scares the hell out of me because I'm bat shit Nutz... and I still feel and am fairly sure when it gets right down to it I'm actually more sane then 98% of the people I meet.

I live in fear of most of you because my insanity only keeps you at bay so much, and I have ADD and my attention is divided like it should be defending the world against you, but more importantly against me... but that leaves me and people like me vulnerable to you crazy automaton SOB sheep

But my point is, or maybe it was.. maybe it isn't: that sometimes we suck at it, some of us suck at it more then others, and need to be open to accepting that fact about themselves. As Gi Joe said... "Knowing is half the battle" ...now do something about it!!! Life is a fight!!! ...The fight is life!!! Get mad and demand better of yourselves

And why don't we/they do something about it more often and with greater success

Here is my theory....

We/they rarely put much effort into teaching us HOW TO THINK FOR OURSELVES ...But much more effort seems to be applied to teaching us what we ought to think (Often with suspect reasons for "Why?" IMHO

Most kids don't get any exposure to philosophy and how to think rationally (Dare I say properly? ) ...Until maybe JR high/High school...or college if they even get to go. We should be teaching kids basic philosophy by 4 or 5 years old IMO. Epistemology, Metaphysics, logic, etc..etc...

I remember in school average, even probably above average intelligence people saying things like: "History!!!! Grrr... I just don't get it " ...To which I would react like this ((

How do you not "get it"? ...it's just what happened!!! ...It's like if I said "I Dave on 11/16 in the year of our lord 2015 when to the store and bought smokes and junk food, then returned home to write some strange rant on a dart frog forum" ...And you replied with "I just don't understand?!?!?!?!?

My point? ...Hell if I know Oh wait now I remember ...Maybe otherwise normal people can fail to understand history because they were never actually taught how to think so they could reason out for themselves the chain of cause/effect and understand the further implications that ripple out and so on and on, bla bla bla.... which all adds up to "LIFE". Sure it finds a way... but the way so many of us are doing it is akin to a drunk sorority girl stumbling out of a party and taking the first ride offered.... Sober up! Call a cab! ...Find your own path and walk it honestly instead of taking the thoughts that are handed to you!!!

FYI: Most people probably put more effort into shopping for a car or the newest gadget then they do finding and understanding a philosophy to lead their life by. They drive a Chevy cuz their dad drove a chevy, they worship that god cuz their gramp pa fought in a war and died for their sins, and ya I drove 65 ford mustang, but not because my dad did... because I damn well liked it!!! ...but did I hate vetts and camaros??? No... because I decided not to be a prejudice D-Bag when I was told that was what was expected of me, because all the cool kids are doing it... when they should have been jumping off bridges with their dumb ass friends!!!!

Basically I think to many people worry more about their kids maybe learning something they themselves don't really believe is true/right... rather then the damn kids just learn to think for themselves and then actually understand what is happening around them and why... and how some of the bad things are in fact their fault as much as other people's... and whoa!!! Maybe the bad things are happening because like them these other people never really learned how to think either... they were just told/"taught" (cough)... what to think.

Now I don't know if it is relevant, but watch this....




TTFN kiddos

P.S. I hit the maximum amount of emoticons it will let you use in a message (40), and had to delete some ...LOL

...And to answer the first 3 questions that probably popped into your mind:

1. No, I'm sober...
2. No, I'm not High...
3. Yes, I'm almost perfectly fine.
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

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Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
Ah, the emoticon... Boy I must be a luddite... That is one aspect of communication that has always vexed--one cannot hear tone, or see body language...
I tend to use one when I'm not serious as I'm pretty much always dry and it is very hard for people who aren't in frequent contact with me to get when I'm serious or not.

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Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
Doesn't the larger point that you, Dave and I make apply to other areas of life? E.g., "I know this because XYZ say so?" The point I want to reiterate is that with younger people and/or beginners, I tend to opt for the "argument from authority" (i.e., read the %[email protected]!# book) Learn some real basics, then we can talk (I'm sure some of the veterans remember the days of actually enjoying reading "Breeding Terrarium Animals" and before that, "Your Terrarium!")
Actually I have that one in my reference library and I do still refer to it on occasion. As an example the feeder culture section is still valid and the setup of the enclosures with multiple calling sites is always a good reference for those looking for ideas on spatial placements.

I think there is a different perception of what/who is the authority on things like facebook. As an example, the owner of the page must be an authority because he/she set up the page with information. That person must not be an authority because they are saying something different than the others.

I think you are correct that there is an over reliance on social media as opposed to traditional sources of information and when this is paired with a lack of interest to fact check you end up with a problem.

As an example I read the information about prey satiation and refusal to feed years ago (in the hobby) as well and even back then I thought there was something wrong with it but there wasn't anything at that time that would otherwise indicate an alternate hypothesis as to the reason. One of the reasons I always questioned it is that very few animals will starve themselves to death simply because they are offered a food that was acceptable for an extended period of time but suddenly was refused. Yet no one seemed to question that as a reason and it was only relatively recently (last ten years) that information became available that provide alternate hypothesis as to the reason an old world chameleon would starve itself to death.


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Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
--Posted pics of rodent damage, got resistance;
--When I repeatedly asked for one text--one--that recommends live feeding, got several evasions.
Some of the animals that rely on visual movement can require live rodents as an example it was much easier to feed Oxybelis live fuzzies than it was to
try to get them to focus on the frozen thawed fuzzy on the feeder. Any movement I made made them refocus on my movement as opposed to the rodent. Now offering them something that moved changed the game as they could focus and follow that movement easily.


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Originally Posted by Groundhog View Post
Then it dawned on me--these people bought the pets and the gear but not the manuals--after all, just get on Facebook! They should learn the basics. And for many keepers, I am not at all uncomfortable with repeating some dogma--as in, don't feed live rats! (Except maybe to velociraptors )
However not to feed live rats isn't dogma as there is an ongoing viable reason as to the problem.
One that always gets me is the constant claim that crickets transmit pinworms to reptiles and amphibian despite the fact that pinworms are often specific to a relatively small number of species and it would require fecal material from a reptile or amphibian of that group that was infected with the pinworms to be consumed by the cricket recently enough that the eggs would still be in the gut of the crickets ....
(and the literature shows that they don't anyhow ... see Padilla, L., K. Flammer, and R. Miller. "Klarsfeld J, Mitchell M. An eval-uation of the gray cricket, Acheta domestica, as a source of oxyurids for reptiles. J Herpe Med Surg 15 (1): 18-20, 2005." (2005).). That is one of the most persistent myths floating around out there and a lot of dogma and denial is built into the arguments. This is one of those items that because every says it, it must be so...

And then there are the deliberate misdirections. For example there is a lot of people who sell butterworms as a high calcium feeder but few have paid any attention to the units supplied by the source ... it is in mg/liter of caterpillar. Its a measurement that cannot be applied for a comparison (and on analysis they aren't what they are claimed to be).

Some comments

Ed
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Old 11-17-2015, 04:35 AM
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Agreed, though I must admit I was part of the "Tincs aren't group frogs" bandwagon, but am more open to it now that I've heard of more people who I think probably know what they are doing having success. What soured me on the idea personally besides anecdotal reports was watching 2 male azureus beat the hell out of each other from one end to the other and back in a densely planted 30gal for the sake of the female in the tank I guess. I had to pull one because they were chasing each other down to restart the fight and there looked to be no end in sight even after 10+ minutes. I have some Koetari coming though that I may try in a group.
But is that a result of husbandry and the simple answer is to not do it because there isn't any need then to understand the behaviors and what has to be done to prevent it? I've kept azureus in groups of 4-6 in 20 gallon longs back in the day without any of that happening and that doesn't include the other tinctorius I worked with through the years.

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...Not a fan of the Venomoids.
Ethics aside, there is actually little reason biologically to argue against it provided it is done under proper anesthesia, antibiotics to prevent infection and proper follow up treatment. One of the big problems with it in the past is that the anesthesia was simply putting the snake in the fridge until it became cold enough to operate on and then it was done on a table in the snake room without antibiotics and each time the snake began to wake up, back into the fridge.



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Old 11-17-2015, 05:07 AM
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Guys, I think this pretty much sums it up:

Absolutely everyone suddenly an expert on how to defeat ISIS

How dare we not listen to that guy? Again, the point is not the specifics of the topic; it is that any clown can discourse at length and surround himself with parrots that actually believe him (maybe even vote for him...)
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Old 11-17-2015, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
But is that a result of husbandry and the simple answer is to not do it because there isn't any need then to understand the behaviors and what has to be done to prevent it? I've kept azureus in groups of 4-6 in 20 gallon longs back in the day without any of that happening and that doesn't include the other tinctorius I worked with through the years. Ed
Ya If I remember correctly those frogs had previously been together as they grew up without incident, but a viv change and adding one frog in at a later date I think sparked the issue. I probably could have pulled them all and maybe added the males back in later, then the female later after that or tried some other things and maybe got it to work, but I had the space so I took the path of least resistance.


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Ethics aside, there is actually little reason biologically to argue against it provided it is done under proper anesthesia, antibiotics to prevent infection and proper follow up treatment. One of the big problems with it in the past is that the anesthesia was simply putting the snake in the fridge until it became cold enough to operate on and then it was done on a table in the snake room without antibiotics and each time the snake began to wake up, back into the fridge.



Some comments

Ed
If I remember correctly when I first heard about it and looked into it, what i read was akin to me slamming my ferret up against a wall to knock it out so I could have scent glands removed. As it was described, it didn't seem particularly pleasant for the snake in many cases. But to be fair since I don't have much interest in snakes I didn't really dive into it.

I'd be a bit more ok with it under the conditions you describe, but like you said there are ethics issues beyond the actual operation. I don't really like the idea of declawing animals and the like to make them more as we would have them be in most cases. There are practical and ethical reasons to spay and neuter some pets, and to sometimes do other things... but My fox isn't, nor is she descented, and If ferrets didn't already come like that from most sources I probably wouldn't have bothered.
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Old 11-18-2015, 08:10 PM
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I think that today a big issue is that many people do not know how to be informed consumers of information.
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Old 11-19-2015, 08:07 PM
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I think that today a big issue is that many people do not know how to be informed consumers of information.
...but they think they are!
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Old 11-20-2015, 06:14 AM
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It goes both ways. I once commented on a post on herd immunity...basically telling a guy to go do research.

He simply gave me a link to a site that had an article went to a peer reviewed paper. I put this on my own page and solicited the input of a colleage who studied avian pathology.

In a nutshell..I learned that not all skeptical on the efficacy and benefit of certain vaccines are crazy anti-vaxxers convinced that vaccines cause autism.

Im waiting to find my evidence based intelligent design case but I dont see that oneever surfacing...haha
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Old 11-22-2015, 06:11 AM
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Again, scale--this is a conversation between peers who actually understand the scientific method. But to be quite blunt, were some pregnant 17 yr old bimbo to ask me, I would never point them to that paper--no way. instead, watch this:


https://youtu.be/lhk7-5eBCrs





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It goes both ways. I once commented on a post on herd immunity...basically telling a guy to go do research.

He simply gave me a link to a site that had an article went to a peer reviewed paper. I put this on my own page and solicited the input of a colleage who studied avian pathology.

In a nutshell..I learned that not all skeptical on the efficacy and benefit of certain vaccines are crazy anti-vaxxers convinced that vaccines cause autism.

Im waiting to find my evidence based intelligent design case but I dont see that oneever surfacing...haha
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Old 11-25-2015, 08:27 AM
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Default Re: The danger of Facebook--to our hobby and others.

Don't know how I missed this thread... But considering as how it is the lounge I'll post the main reason why Facebook is the worst:

People like and share all the clickbait articles that fit into their pre-conceived concept of what is right without doing any sort of real research about the topic from credible sources. Anecdotes rule the world on FB and real evidence is practically shunned.

I see it a ton when it comes to food... Like how pretty much every major scientific organization in the world says GMOs are safe and not nutritionally different from food created through other breeding methods., but there are like 9 million FB pages talking about how they are going to give you cancer. Gee, I wonder who is right... The WHO with their thousands of independent studies and that whole scientific method thing, or some woman with a blog, a FB page and a computer science degree who says it "just doesn't seem right" and backs it up with mountains of anecdotal evidence. It's frustrating.
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Old 11-26-2015, 07:18 PM
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Ya Tom, that pretty much sums it up...

If you want learn about cats and concealed carry laws, and search Google for an article on how cats are evil and we should all buy more fire arms: you'll probably find it at CatsareEvilBuymoreguns.com ...and I'm sure they are a non biased entity
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Old 11-27-2015, 05:30 AM
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Ya Tom, that pretty much sums it up...

If you want learn about cats and concealed carry laws, and search Google for an article on how cats are evil and we should all buy more fire arms: you'll probably find it at CatsareEvilBuymoreguns.com ...and I'm sure they are a non biased entity
Dave they are clearly just trying to inform you about the benefits and are definitely not trying to sell you anything...

but if you wanted to buy something, here are a bunch of affiliate links (undisclosed of course) where you can get all the stuff you need!
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Old 11-27-2015, 09:37 AM
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Great, and since they are so obviously non biased/agenda driven this will be perfect to share on my Facebook page so everyone can just assume it is legit without need to question its validity since everything with a "like" button must have come from an objective source... It is on the internet after all!!

Finally my friends will be as well informed as I am, and we can finally crush the cat lovers and anti gun people who obviously hate America.
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