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Old 11-15-2014, 10:19 AM
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Default How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

We all have standards in quality, but we also all have budget standards. How much are you willing to pay for a quality frog strain? Any morph?
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Old 11-16-2014, 02:22 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

IMO, frogs are worth far more than they are going for these days. That said, I would prefer to spend the extra money to purchase from a known quality, experienced breeder. All frogs are NOT equal. My most expensive frog was only 250.00. Price is typically not a concern if its what I consider a grail frog and have the bank roll to afford it.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

This is a good thread because it will actually be somewhat informative to me and others about how much we should set our upper limits too if everyone here just says not more than $400. The largest factors that limit me are uncertainty in the future market. I have heard of the Ranitomeya crash and am witnessing it now. I believe pumilio will get a beating if Tesoros brings in O. histrionica and O. lehmanni.

A number of us saw a rare frog go on sale this last week that many of us considered and someone bought. I had $1500 ready per frog for the trio. I stopped short of buying them just long enough for someone else to snap them up. I also hesitated because Tesoros has them and could import them at any time crashing the value.

It's an odd question but everyone values things differently people I discussed this with said I was just plain crazy. However I asked them, if you spent $4500 on anything how much money could you possibly get back for it in a good but realistic scenario? Invest in your house, buy a TV, phone, car or upgrade your car, and with almost everything they listed the best any of them could do was make maybe a 20% profit and most of the things they would spend the money on would only depreciate or wear out quickly. With a frog if the value holds you can keep producing froglets for a decade and eventually make your money back and make hundreds of percent profit, if the value falls you can probably still break even. I am not saying you have to view a frog as an ROI decision but there is a possible upside absent from many things most people would spend far more money for. And that makes it so your total cost of ownership isn't as strait forward as just oh noes I spent too much on these. Many people base monetary value on what they are used to and other people are spending money on and make no rational critique practical value.

I can think of no upper limit to how much I would pay for a frog if I had the money and thought I had a chance at recouping that money. Realistically right now I wouldn't be into dropping more than $2500 / frog because I am not sure if I can think of any frog that would hold its value at those high of prices long enough for me to get them breeding. Maybe this thread will prove me wrong though.
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:52 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Those are the kind of replies that I was looking for Pubfiction, and great points at that. I had an open forum type of discussion during a marketing trend class that I am taking during night school. This question came up regarding hobbyists within various exotic animal communities. Of coarse I had to express my views regarding the dart frog hobby, and also the Malawi cichlid hobby. Which I also take part in. But I was interested in other peoples views pertaining to this issue within the dart frog community. A lot of people feel that the price of certain species(of all animals really)is dictated by it's demand, or the fact the it remains a rarity in a hobbyists personal possession. We see this sometimes with the price fluctuation of certain morphs of Dartfrogs due to successful breeding habits and such. I believe that all points of view, and insight regarding this discussion, can be of help to us all in one way or another. Particularly in my situation, it would greatly aid in the construction of my term final... Which I dread!
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:07 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

This is not a shot at you Pub in any way, but I think that factoring what someone thinks they can recoup or profit off of offspring from a pair of frogs is one of the problems with this hobby. The fact that people see dollar signs from breeding potential takes away from the real joys of keeping these frogs and is a major factor in the typical fire sale/getting out of the hobby threads we see so often. You may have different views, but as long people continue buying up the newest, most popular and expensive frog at the moment we can be assured that the popularity of these frogs will decrease and will inevitably cause in increased popularity for frogs we will lose from the hobby because of that trend. So many frogs come to mind. Look at prices just a few years ago on veradero, benedicta, older line blue jean pumilio, fantastica, the list goes on. Ask around at how many people are breeding the old lamasi like green leg and panguana. How many people are breeding vents? Anthonyi? How about green imi's? Don't see them much for sale any more either. It's because none of these frogs are expensive any more. Nobody wants to keep and breed frogs if they can't make some money off their offspring. 5 years from now, nobody will be able to get them easily and those who kept frogs they loved as opposed to frogs that can make them money will have what everyone else is looking for. It's a vicious cycle, but I don't see it stopping any time soon. I'd pay 1,000,000 if I had it for the chance to work with certain frogs, not because they will make me my million back but because I want them. I like the challenge of breeding certain frogs, or setting up conditions that allow them to display better, or doing something thought to be difficult with a certain breed or morph. This is why I stay in the hobby, not to make money. If my hobby were a business, I'd be in the red year after year.
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Old 11-17-2014, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

This is a great addition to this discussion MELLO, I have a very similar perspective as well. As a child in the early 80's, I could only dream of working with Dartfrogs in my own home one day. And for it to become a reality as it did many years ago, I take it as a blessing, and as an honor in the highest form. The opportunity to own such an increasingly endangered, and beautiful natural relic, I can only assume for some people it has gotten bypassed at the sight of a high cost for some morphs. Or even in the beginning, when Azureus were the one's going for 200.00+. But for the sake of responsible ownership practices to such an amazing life form, this can also be very beneficial as well. Thus weeding out the trend riders to an extent. Great job providing options, and insight thus far guys.

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Old 11-17-2014, 10:12 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pubfiction View Post
This is a good thread because it will actually be somewhat informative to me and others about how much we should set our upper limits too if everyone here just says not more than $400. The largest factors that limit me are uncertainty in the future market. I have heard of the Ranitomeya crash and am witnessing it now. I believe pumilio will get a beating if Tesoros brings in O. histrionica and O. lehmanni.
Funny coincidence that I was just discussing this topic with another frogger earlier today. I rarely haggle pricing when a breeder I trust has an animal I want. Value should have a degree of fluctuation based on the quality and age of the frog in question, as well as the seller's reputation and experience.

but...

Pub, your post makes me believe that darts should be worth nothing, and should only be kept, and traded amongst those that are willing dedicate time, space, and resources to keeping them with no potential for a profit.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:00 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Another way to put this ...

How much is TOO much to ASK for a frog?

s
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:15 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Back to the original Question, I have a hard time spending $200 per frog, and actually some frogs that I really really like are $175 and can't pull that trigger because of the price.

One of the issues with the hobby is that some people (not calling out any one) just see $$$ when it comes to the frogs. If you are worried about price fluctuations of your collection that's part of the issue. I buy frogs because I like them and I sell them dirt cheap because the value of the frog doesn't matter to me, helping someone new get in to the hobby by giving them a great deal on some frogs is what matters to me. I see the frogs I sell go for 4-5 times the price I sell them at. If you keep your frogs long enough they will pay for themselves even if the market crashes on them.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

I've spent $1000 for two frogs and i still have them. I know people who have dropped more than that on one frog.
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Old 11-17-2014, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

This may be irrelevant here, but how much did most of you spend on your car? How about your TV? Anyone own a boat or quads or kayaks? How did you determine how much those were worth? The asking price? The cheapest Craigslist deal? Everyone in town had them for 30k but you found yours for 25k? Only reason I ask is that I spend as much or more time with my frogs than I do with the TV. I work around cars and know that the majority of people who bought their expensive rides were because it's a status symbol (much like todays high priced frogs). That Mercedes you bought last year for 60 grand is only worth 35 now. That 2000.00 TV is only worth a couple hundred used, so was it worth the original asking price? Boats, ATV's, all of that stuff is crazy expensive and for the most part hardly used but people buy them all the time and they do it because they enjoy them. I enjoy my frogs much more than I would a boat, so the 20k you spent on a boat is 20k I would have spent on frogs if I had it. It's not about how much the frog costs, it's about how much I want it. There are a ton of frogs I want that I can not afford. If I could, I would buy them.
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Old 11-18-2014, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

I got out of tincs because they are nearly impossible to sell. I really enjoyed my Azureus. They were always out and waiting for me to come around with flies, never jetted off under something when I opened the tank (like my $250+ frogs), and were among my most visually appealing (personally). Although, with the viv I had them in, they did their thing and I ended up with froglets. Feeding tincs is no small task. They're hungry frogs compared to my thumbs and pums. Having one or two dozen is crazy for a small time collector, so I definitely didn't want to keep any more than my original pair permanently.
The problem is, the price is so deflated that charging anything for shipping on a $15-$25 frog automatically makes them too expensive. I'm not willing to lose money on shipping, so I ended up sending more than half of my last group out as freebies on sales/trades for other frogs.
The lack of interest and severely undervalued nature of those frogs pushed me into selling my pair, and not because I didn't enjoy them or because there was something better on the horizon (I haven't reused or torn down their viv, it's still hanging out as if they were in there), but because I just couldn't keep them in the tank they were in and not have it cost me more time and money than it was worth to keep them. I find that disappointing.
Of all of my frogs, I've found the cheaper ones to generally be the most bold and the most willing to interact. I am definitely for affordable frogs, but it's to a point where they're getting to be almost disposable and under-appreciated with some types.
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Old 11-18-2014, 02:18 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Only buying a frog to make money off of it is different than justifying the expensive of a frog you like because you can make money off of it. Would any of you pay $1500 for E. anthonyi of any type? I wouldn't, mainly because I know they breed like jack rabbits and will be available in a year or so for $40. I am just making a responsible decision to have the self-control to wait on something I want a little to make a positive financial decision. IMO nothing wrong with that. However if I know a frog breeds slow then I may accept that there is little to no chance the price will come down significantly in the next 2 years and so I won't mind spending $1500 on it if I like the frog.

IMO high priced frogs do not create the pump and dump economy that leads to the loss of frogs in the hobby. If frogs are lost in the hobby it happens for 2 reasons. 1 not enough people wanted them anyway or 2 they are hard to breed for any number of reasons including they have a genetic bottle neck due to a small founding population. Option number 1 is the one that more people here need to think about seriously. Whenever you look at a frog coming in I find it hard to believe any highly sought after frog now days with all of our improvements in husbandry would just disappear if it was really something that people wanted for reasons other than it is rare. When Azureus hit, they stayed and even as cheap as they are they are still a component of a ton of collections because people want them regardless of if they are $1500 or $15 they will sell. Same with Leucomelas, Terribilis etc..... If a frog disappears it just didn't offer enough IMO. Because if it did when the people who don't care about the frog dump it for more profitable breeders the people who like it with less money will step in to pick them up.
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Old 11-18-2014, 03:15 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

So you admit it's all about the $ then?

Keep what you LIKE unless you're only in it for a business.

If you can't sell froglets on a species you like - it's simple - pull the eggs. If you get the occasional pop up froglet you can deal with that.

s
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I got out of tincs because they are nearly impossible to sell. I really enjoyed my Azureus.
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Old 11-18-2014, 06:19 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
So you admit it's all about the $ then?

Keep what you LIKE unless you're only in it for a business.

If you can't sell froglets on a species you like - it's simple - pull the eggs. If you get the occasional pop up froglet you can deal with that.

s

I don't think that sounds fair. It doesn't have to be for the love of frogs OR for the love of money. To me, the question you posed makes it sound like they are mutually exclusive. I would bet that everyone here has a varying degree of interest in money that their frogs can generate, some more or less than others. Of course some of you are holier than thou.

My most expensive frogs by far are my wild pair of Robertus. I bought them because I liked them. That being said, I'm hoping I can sell some froglets to recoup a little money. Does that make me any less of a frogger than anyone here? Is it ok for me to think that when I sell froglets, that money helps justify the money I spend on all the stuff that supports the frogs or for purchasing more frogs?
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Old 11-18-2014, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Getting out of your favorite frogs because you cannot sell them ... is the wrong message to beginners.

Keep the frogs you like. That is the right message.

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Old 11-18-2014, 04:39 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

I think the theme of this conversation has gone to its all about the money and worth of frogs. There are a few (Brian) who I think have the right attitude, enjoy your frogs and the price doesn't matter. If you are getting rid of tincs because you can't sell them, well then you are in it for the $$$, my collection is mostly tincs and I can sell almost all of them no problem. I also sell them for dirt cheap because it doesn't matter to me, the cost to raise them is minimal, I spend maybe $60 a year on media for the flies and electricity to run the lights just gets absorbed in my monthly bill which I am sure I make back on the few frogs I sell throughout the year.

I guess it all depends on how enthusiastic a dart frog hobbyist you are, the more enthusiastic you are the more money you are willing to spend on frogs. I would say I am mildly enthusiastic, I enjoy my frogs very much, but I also enjoy my big TV, and my fast car, but I enjoy those very much even though they are only worth 1/4 the price I paid for them originally. I guess that is why its hard for me to spend so much on a frog when I can spend it on other things I enjoy just as much.
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Old 11-19-2014, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

I think too much is when you can no longer afford the electric bills to keep the lights on.
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:47 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

I buy what I like and willing to keep and work with long term expensive or not. Even if I spent $1500 on a trio of paru and by the time I breed them they sell for $50 is irrelevant to the fact I bought them because they interest me. If I can make some cash off offspring good....it helps support the collection.

I don't buy frogs with personal money....only money from selling offspring....If I have to wait till I have the cash I wait....That is my personal rule for my frog collection. It has worked....makes me more selective on what I buy and I have enjoyed the hobby a lot more.....But I also came into the hobby without $$ for eyes.....
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:11 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Everyone's opinion is very insightful regarding this discussion. I know it can get a bit touchy, even personal at times for all of us. I know that the lack of $$$ at that start of a journey can only allow a person to travel so far. But for me, financial gain has never been recognized as the main motivational factor that allows me to passionately pursue my involvement within this hobby. During my class discussion, a lot of people DID see the idea of having the rarest exotic pets as being symbolic of a higher status within their hobby. And in some peoples opinion this was justifiable to come out of pocket, no matter the price. Others just never came to terms with the reasoning, whatsoever. This fascinates me, and has made it very interesting to hear the opinions that everyone has regarding the dart frog community. I am looking forward to reading many more opinions, and discussions, regarding the factors that limits the amount of money that all of us spend on frogs. Or even the factors that don't limit us. Thank you all for your comments.

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Old 11-19-2014, 03:14 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurel View Post
I don't buy frogs with personal money....only money from selling offspring....If I have to wait till I have the cash I wait....That is my personal rule for my frog collection. It has worked....makes me more selective on what I buy and I have enjoyed the hobby a lot more.....But I also came into the hobby without $$ for eyes.....

I can relate my friend. Very well stated. 😉
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Old 11-19-2014, 04:19 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Hello all -

I've been following this thread and hope you might entertain a question from a beginner such as myself. I have a real life, non-hypothetical question to ask.

Question for you all - what would you think of a beginner such as myself getting a frog like true sipaliwini which is fairly new to the hobby and fairly expensive compared to other tincs?

I am not interested in it because I expect to make some sort of profit breeding them. I only have room for one tank, and after much research I decided I want some sort of tinctorius and I really like the looks of true sips. If I've done a lot of research to the point where I feel confident I won't kill them out of sheer ignorance, is buying a relatively new and expensive frog like this still frowned upon?

I would hope I could do that without getting branded "typical irresponsible beginner impulse buyer" and ostracized by the PDF community. I'm not looking to buy some ultra-rare "expert-level" frog like silverstonei here, but I am looking at some of the more expensive tincs. If I'm only planning on doing one tank is it wrong for me to spend a little more for my "dream frog?"

Not trying to start an argument, just thought you might like a beginner perspective and I'd appreciate any feedback you could provide.

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Old 11-19-2014, 05:02 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Hello thane, and welcome. Your input, and your selection for your first frog is valuable insight to this discussion. As there are many facets, and perspectives to this subject as a whole. I personally do not recognize it to be an "impulse buy" by any means, as long as you have done the research, and properly prepared yourself to care for your frogs for the long term, as you have stated. That in itself, tells the tale of a responsible dart frog hobbyist. My morph of choice at the time of my entry into this hobby as an 18 year old, had very much to due with the constraints of my budget. But I just loved the way they looked, (D. Tinctorius "Brazilian yellowhead" being my very first darts) that I saved my ass off, learned extensively at the same time regarding their care, and I also built my first vivarium and made sure I had cultures down before I had them in my possession. If it is your desire to own more expensive morphs of frogs, by all means, the choice to do so is there. But I very much believe that everyone needs to be responsible in their approach from the very start, regardless of the morph(or even any other animal for that matter) I feel this should never be overlooked. Btw, true Sips are gorgeous frogs, and what a wonderful first morph!
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Old 11-19-2014, 02:13 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thane View Post
If I'm only planning on doing one tank is it wrong for me to spend a little more for my "dream frog?"

Absolutely, positively nothing wrong in doing that.

People believe (not saying you) that there`s some law that say`s you have to breed to enjoy this hobby.
My "dream" frog`s are the one`s I own..Orange Terribilis, Leucomelas and Azuerus.
I don`t breed anymore because I don`t have the time and space for it and I enjoy my frog`s just the same.
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Old 11-19-2014, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

This can't be said enough- Keep what you like. That's what its all about after all. This is a hobby not an investment oppurtunity.
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Old 11-20-2014, 07:27 AM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

A true sip is as easy to care for as a coblt tinc, someone correct me if I'm wrong. You could pay $300 a head for a new locale of Auratus and the care is the same as the other locales. Its just more risk for a beginner to make that investment, and more risk to the hobby to have rare frogs/locales in a beginner's hands. Granted there is also incentive for importers to "find" new locales that sell for a higher price, so be careful, There's confusion about whether the different types of sips are really from the same locale. Here is one thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/den...ue-sips-2.html

there was another one discussing whether green sips were a variation of another sip locale and questioned whether they should be separated or mixed, but the point for this is that the price tends to vary dramatically based on good lineage and locale information--the better the source the more the frogs are worth.
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Old 11-20-2014, 02:46 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

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Originally Posted by oldlady25715 View Post
A true sip is as easy to care for as a coblt tinc, someone correct me if I'm wrong. You could pay $300 a head for a new locale of Auratus and the care is the same as the other locales. Its just more risk for a beginner to make that investment, and more risk to the hobby to have rare frogs/locales in a beginner's hands. Granted there is also incentive for importers to "find" new locales that sell for a higher price, so be careful, There's confusion about whether the different types of sips are really from the same locale. Here is one thread:

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/den...ue-sips-2.html

there was another one discussing whether green sips were a variation of another sip locale and questioned whether they should be separated or mixed, but the point for this is that the price tends to vary dramatically based on good lineage and locale information--the better the source the more the frogs are worth.
What if I just got one of each and mixed them together!

(That was a joke, please nobody yell at me). Sorry didn't mean to hijack the thread - that's some good info - I will read through it, make sure I'm buying from a reputable breeder and whatnot before I buy. I am not set in stone on the True Sips, but they look very nice and was curious to see what people would think about me getting those, whether that would be considered irresponsible.

You all may want to hear another example where I had decided against getting a certain morph because of the rarity. Maybe this will add to the discussion:

I am aware that within the hobby there are ongoing efforts to breed or re-establish certain rare morphs like Lorenzo and people don't want to sell those to inexperienced buyers. I found this out myself when I asked Kris/Frogface about her avatar because it looked so cool. Then I read up on Lorenzo and found out they are kind of disappearing from the hobby, and there is a dedicated group of people (which I believe was led by the late Bill Schwinn) attempting to reestablish them. After reading that I felt it would be kind of irresponsible for my to try and buy some of those, so even though I think I could have paid a lot and gotten some (I did find one larger breeder online selling them), I took that morph out of consideration.
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Old 11-20-2014, 09:16 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

The care is the same but if you have never cared for a frog before you might be suffering from the dunning kruger effect and may want to consider practicing on a cheaper frog first. What it really comes down to is if you lose the frogs will you feel really bad, either because you killed a rare specimen, or because you lost more money than you were willing to risk? If you will feel really bad build some real world experience first on some cheap local inbred azureus.
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Old 11-20-2014, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: How much is TOO much to pay for a frog?

All good points - thank you!

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The care is the same but if you have never cared for a frog before you might be suffering from the dunning kruger effect and may want to consider practicing on a cheaper frog first.
I read about the Dunning-Kruger effect a few years ago and it really resonated with me. In my job and life I'd generally considered myself to be one of the smart people who's always 2nd guessing themselves - I am not a person with high self esteem. But in the frog world I might be one of those morons who's overestimating my knowledge and need to take a step back. I would LIKE to think I've done a ton of research on here and I'm fairly confident now, but I'm sure you've heard that all before.

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What it really comes down to is if you lose the frogs will you feel really bad, either because you killed a rare specimen, or because you lost more money than you were willing to risk?.
Risk of killing a rare specimen would be my #1 fear here. I would like to think that I've researched enough that this wouldn't happen, and I would hope that if there were any sort of symptoms of illness I could act quick enough to cure it, but my greatest fear would be ending up like this guy here: Donald Rusk Currey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My second fear would be losing the support of the PDF community. I really appreciate how warm and willing to help people on here are, but if I kill some rare frog due to some stupid mistake I would imagine that support would dry up pretty quickly.

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If you will feel really bad build some real world experience first on some cheap local inbred azureus.
That is exactly what is available here. Azureus is the only morph the local exotic pet shop had and the only other ones I've seen in town were some very sad looking frogs at Petco. There's a semi-annual reptile show I went just to browse, but the only PDF breeder there has a highly infamous reputation on this board so I just walked away from that. I have nothing against azureus and in fact they were the first PDF I ever saw - saw them at the zoo and thought they were so cool. And everyone here seems to say these are what impress the casual visitor to their house the most.

So this is another dilemma for me - I know everyone on here says the hobby is addictive and you start with one tank that leads to twenty - but I really truly only have the space and money in my house for 1 nice tank, so I don't think I will be able to raise several "practice/beginner" frogs to gain experience. That is why I am trying to educate myself as much as possible, and take things slowly, and rely on this board for help and guidance. My plan/vision/goal is just to get 2-3 frogs and do as good a job as I can with them and have them live a long and happy life. This is why I am wanting to buy my "dream frog," whether that be something common like a Patricia or rare like a True Sip. I don't know if that comes across as foolish and overconfident, but I hope that explains where I'm coming from.

Drewbacca - sorry if I hijacked your thread a little, but your original question and the responses really resonated with me and I thought you might all appreciate perspective from a beginner who is (I hope) trying to do the right thing here. I really do appreciate all the feedback people have given.
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