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Old 07-12-2020, 12:41 PM
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Default D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Hi,
I have been a frog keeper for quite some time now but had this issue for the first time.
I found my semiadult (approx. 8 mo) tumucumaque tinc two days ago just lying hiding in my viv. His tankmates are doing just fine and so he was 3 days ago, eating well, growing and he seemed to be a pretty happy frog. We observed him for 2 hours and decided it was time to move him out to quarantine tank. He has some serious movement problems, keeps still most of the time, when trying to move he is tilted to the left, possibly left front leg problem. I saw him trying to eat so we offered him a small amount of ff with a fruit to keep them in one spot for him.
Other than the mobility problem he looks just right. The viv is pretty large (90x60x120cm), good ventilation, automatic misting and fogging (misting 4 or 6 times a day and fogger goes on every 2 hrs for 15 minutes). I feed ff, dusted with dendrocare, repashy vitamin A every two to four weeks.
Is there anything we can do for him to help? The past two days changed nothing whatsoever in his condition..
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Old 07-12-2020, 12:53 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Post some detailed photo's of your tank.

My guess is part of your problem is giving it too much vitA, since dendrocare already is heavy on the vitA. I recommend cutting the dendrocare and switch to Repashy Cal+
The other guess is that your tank is waaay too wet. The frogs hide in the dry areas.
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Old 07-12-2020, 01:03 PM
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Sure will cut the vit A. The viv does not seem to be too wet, it has plenty of airflow, the leaves dry out between each fogging/misting cycles. I post a link to my Instagram for viv picture.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCiv2Efp...=1369q4wbv80ux

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCi0jVIJ...=109x5080w5ln1

Last edited by Sathis; 07-12-2020 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 07-12-2020, 02:00 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

don't cut the vit A, cut the dendrocare..

It's hard to tell from the photo's. But your misting and fogging seems to be on the high end..
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Old 07-12-2020, 02:20 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Misting every couple hours and then hours of fogging suggests way too much moisture. Also, there is really no leaf litter at all in the viv, so the frogs cannot choose their humidity/moisture levels. I would add lots of leaf litter.

Also agree with @Tijl on the vitamin A situation.
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Old 07-12-2020, 03:45 PM
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Of course I meant switching Dendrocare to pure cal+d3 with no further additives.
The leaves I need to add (most decomposed) - will do today.
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Old 07-12-2020, 06:22 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sathis View Post
Of course I meant switching Dendrocare to pure cal+d3 with no further additives.
No. You are misunderstanding.

Tijl recommended a product called "Repashy Calcium Plus". I think this a good recommendation.
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Old 07-13-2020, 04:29 AM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

So there is no misunderstanding on what we are trying to say about supplements.
Drop all supplements immediately, and switch to ONLY one supplement. Specifically, Repashy Calcium Plus.
NOT repashy calcium plus LoD
NOT repashy calcium plus Hyd

Simply Repashy Calcium Plus. I choose it, even if for no other reason than it's made right here in America. That means no international shipping and distribution routes. That means it's in your hands quicker, and fresher. That's actually extremely important, because vitamin powders age worse, and faster, than human vitamin pills.
Repashy Calcium Plus is a very well designed, stand alone, supplement.

You have a river pouring through your viv. Misting 4 to 6 times a day?? I'm sorry to inform you, you are reading information over a decade old. I'm not trying to shame you, but rather, simply passing on what I've learned. Misting 4 to 6 times a day is way too much. When you add in that you fog every 2 hours, I'm sorry, that's a flood. The rainforests do not sit at 90% humidity. Aim for an average of more like 70%. I'm currently misting one long cycle in the morning. That's it. Plus, I have vents below and above my doors. Plus, I have an internal circulation fan.
If you are misting 4 to 6 times a day, and fogging every 2 hours, you may will do better with fish. (sorry, a little comedy...very little) Seriously though, even if your top were wide open, with only a screen, that's too much humidity and moisture. Not a little too much. Waaaayyy to much.
If you have a newly planted cutting or two, that seem to need a bit more, those specific cuttings can be hand misted an extra time or two per day.

Too much moisture and humidity is an invitation for skin and respiratory, bacterial infections.

90% is dead. It died over a decade ago. Join us 70%ers, and see success like never before!
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Old 07-13-2020, 02:50 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
My guess is part of your problem is giving it too much vitA, since dendrocare already is heavy on the vitA. I recommend cutting the dendrocare and switch to Repashy Cal+
So, I just checked, and Dendrocare has about the same amount of Vit A as Calcium Plus.

Dendrocare: 450,000 IU Vit A per kilogram

Calcium Plus: 200,000 IU Vit A per pound (=440,000 IU per kilogram)

I'm not sure what to make of this, though, since Dendrocare has far more D3 and Vit E.

Dendrocare: 120,000 IU D3 per kilogram
10,200 IU Vit E per kilogram

Calcium Plus: 20,000 IU D3 per pound (=44,000 IU per kilogram)
2,000 IU Vit E per pound (=4,400 IU per kilogram)

I notice that Dendrocare seems to stick to FFs much less well than does Calcium Plus; perhaps this fact (if it is one) is figured in to the amounts of each vitamin that are in the product.

I still stand behind the recommendation to supplement with only Calcium Plus, and not supplement extra Vitamin A to non-breeding animals.

https://www.dendrocare.com/en/dendro...formation.html
https://www.store.repashy.com/calciu...-4-oz-bag.html
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Old 07-13-2020, 03:16 PM
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I misread the Cal+ it seems. I've read 200000 /kg instead of pound. That's double the difference 😄

Great catch!

Also, @ the OP : don't forget to refrigerate your supplements and replace your supplements every 6 months.
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:18 PM
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Thank you everyone for the input.
So to start with I am looking for Repashy Calcium Plus (which is a bit of a challenge since in Poland there is a ton different supplements available.. other than this one 😉 ). But will get it.
I will also cut on the misting as you suggest (although I don't have a pool of water or a stream it this tank). I came back to the hobby after 10 years so I might have a bit of an outdated idea on how to run rainforest vivs 😉 the learning never ends I see 🙂

As to the frog who is my number 1 patient - no change whatsoever. Nothing. No improvement, not getting worse (meaning still critical). I might however risk a diagnosis that his main issue is some kind of an arm injury. Although in human world a broken or twisted arm won't necessarily cause much more than some healing and recovery, my best guess it that with a tiny creature like a tinc it won't be this easy. If my observation proves true we might have to consider culling the little one 😞

Still I greatly appreciate all your impact - this will help me improve the conditions for my froggies.

Last edited by Sathis; 07-13-2020 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 07-13-2020, 08:42 PM
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Best of luck and keep us up to date!
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Old 07-14-2020, 05:55 PM
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No change today either. He is almost lifeless. We only see him move from time to time, go in a hut, out. Then move around some more.. we are loosing hope..
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Old 07-15-2020, 07:33 PM
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Today we managed to inspect the frog some more as he moved some closer to the front of my quarantine tank.
It seems his left palm is dislocated so there must have been some kind of a trauma involved. Possibly he fell of somewhere high or was just unlucky. Anyways I do not think there is anything that can be done at this point to help him and it seems he is in severe pain. I am considering euthanasia just now... 😞
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sathis View Post
Today we managed to inspect the frog some more as he moved some closer to the front of my quarantine tank.
It seems his left palm is dislocated so there must have been some kind of a trauma involved. Possibly he fell of somewhere high or was just unlucky. Anyways I do not think there is anything that can be done at this point to help him and it seems he is in severe pain. I am considering euthanasia just now... 😞
Why not take it to a specialised vet to see if it can be fixed? I've seen a couple of posts around here with frogs that had dilocated joints that healed up just fine.

Seems a bit early to be jumping to euthanasia here.
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Old 07-17-2020, 08:19 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sathis View Post
Today we managed to inspect the frog some more as he moved some closer to the front of my quarantine tank.
It seems his left palm is dislocated so there must have been some kind of a trauma involved. Possibly he fell of somewhere high or was just unlucky. Anyways I do not think there is anything that can be done at this point to help him and it seems he is in severe pain. I am considering euthanasia just now... 😞
Just a thought, healthy frogs can fall from ridiculously high perches and suffer no trauma/injuries. They are literally built for it. I know it's not impossible, but just to put it in perspective I've kept hundreds and hundreds of frogs over the last 15 years and I've only ever seen two breaks. One of those cases I caused by clipping a frogs toe in a deli cup when I was packaging him for shipping. The other was bone disease related to old supplements. This was a long time ago and the supplements of the parents had gotten old. All in the clutch had spindly leg syndrome except one. His wrist broke one day.

I agree with the recommendation of Repashy.
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Old 07-18-2020, 09:03 AM
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We switched to Repashy as suggested. The frog is still there.
Taking it to the vet is an option but still would require an 1.5hr trip to the closest vet who deals with amphibians. Not a biggie to me but it means the frog would be at least 4 hours total in transport. Plus the fracture is just an option here... especially that we saw him sitting in his regular way (with both front legs looking fine and no body tilt) so I definitely take it as a sign of recovery. A slow recovery, yet still after a few days of just lying, seeing him sitting gave us some hope.
I have been trying to buy calcium gluconate in my local pharmacy and they claimed it would be available today so we will get it and prepare a 2% solution to drop on his back. Furthermore we are preparing to give him an isotonic bath today (however we think he is still eating some ff). Keep your fingers crossed. Will keep you updated.
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Old 07-27-2020, 08:30 PM
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I am sad to inform that out frog passed two days ago. He was doing much better the previous days so we even started thinking of taking him out of the hospital to a more naturalistic planted enclosure. But then we found him dead. He was looking just normal, not skinny, no sign of sickness.. except for the mere fact he was dead 😞
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:00 PM
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That sad.. sorry for the loss
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Old 07-27-2020, 09:15 PM
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Default Re: D. tinctorius tumucumaque inmobile

Sorry to hear that. :-(
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