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Old 05-17-2020, 04:38 PM
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Default Emergency frog paralyzed

Emergency!
After coming back from a 2 day trip at my parents I went to feed my single powder blue Clyde. After adding the flies I waited to see him eat. When he wouldn't come out I checked under the water dish to find Clyde looking flat and oddly bent. I was horrified, thinking he was dead I poked his toe and he flinched.
I am moving him to a box now. But I have no idea what to do.
The two possibilities I see are he simply got stuck under the water dish or: I ordered new plants for an upgrade tank for him and was storing them in Clydeís tank. When they were in there they grew this white webby mold from them. When I planted them in the new tank the same mold appeared. Possibly the mold poisoned him.
Please help.


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Old 05-17-2020, 04:58 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

How does he look Right Now?
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Old 05-17-2020, 05:03 PM
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Old 05-17-2020, 05:04 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmc View Post
How does he look Right Now?

That is what he looks like.
And this is the mold:




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Old 05-17-2020, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Those mold pics look as if the viv is quite dry. Was moisture looked after in your absence? Also, the paper towel the frog is lying on looks bone dry as well.

I'd consider dehydration as a cause. Keeping the frog in a small humid container on heavily dampened paper towels might be a good first move.

Posting a description of your viv parameters and habits and history would help diagnose, as well as providing full viv pics.

I would not recommend holding on to much hope for your frog at this point. I'm sorry for what happened.
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:10 AM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Back legs look rather thin and bent out of shape.. Could be spindly leg syndrome
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:59 AM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

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Back legs look rather thin and bent out of shape.. Could be spindly leg syndrome
This is defenitly not SLS.. His (or her) front and back legs are well developed and the frog looks like it's an (semi)adult.



This frogs is underfed and probably not given the correct nutrients/supplements.. So the frog simply seems to have a deficiency.
I highly doubt this frog can be saved at this point. If he 'recovers' there is a good chance the frog will have problems for the remainder of it's short life.


I also realy dislike the substrate the frog was kept on. It's hard to tell if the substrate was too dry or to moist by these foto's, so I'll leave that out of the question. (I'd rather think too moist tbh) All this moss and peat substrate is also so easly for the frog to swallow when it's hunting and it's not being able too digest.. I realy recomend only leaf litter on top of a pondfiltermat, gravel or on top of big chunks of treebark when keeping frogs in a similar setup..That way, there will never be a problem for the frog to swallow anny pieces of substrate. Beter to prevent than cure.
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Old 05-18-2020, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

I share the opinions above:

Mortality caused by:

1. Nutritional - not getting the correct food and frequency

2. Hydration - improper level of humidity / Too dry


The state you found the frog in 'stretched out' while seemingly appears to paralysis - is actually the death throes or the very end of the animal. Frogs almost always stretch out like that just prior to death.
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Old 05-18-2020, 01:40 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

The older I get the more it seems to be able to get to me now. Like a contact allergen of pain.
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Old 05-18-2020, 03:58 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
This is defenitly not SLS.. His (or her) front and back legs are well developed and the frog looks like it's an (semi)adult.



This frogs is underfed and probably not given the correct nutrients/supplements.. So the frog simply seems to have a deficiency.
I highly doubt this frog can be saved at this point. If he 'recovers' there is a good chance the frog will have problems for the remainder of it's short life.


I also realy dislike the substrate the frog was kept on. It's hard to tell if the substrate was too dry or to moist by these foto's, so I'll leave that out of the question. (I'd rather think too moist tbh) All this moss and peat substrate is also so easly for the frog to swallow when it's hunting and it's not being able too digest.. I realy recomend only leaf litter on top of a pondfiltermat, gravel or on top of big chunks of treebark when keeping frogs in a similar setup..That way, there will never be a problem for the frog to swallow anny pieces of substrate. Beter to prevent than cure.
I have seen amphibians with what has been said to be SLS and the front and back legs appear to be well formed but the animal struggled to carry their own weight only to die after a few days... This specimen does appear to be weak and scrawny....
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Old 05-18-2020, 04:25 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

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Originally Posted by cobe View Post
I have seen amphibians with what has been said to be SLS and the front and back legs appear to be well formed but the animal struggled to carry their own weight only to die after a few days... This specimen does appear to be weak and scrawny....

Resist the tendency to readily ascribe a syndrome hot burnered in online discussions. You will learn more by acknowledging similarities.

The same thing happens in other genres and animals/diseases. For about 5 years every time a snake regurgitated it would be "diagnosed" online as cryptosporidium.
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Old 05-18-2020, 04:33 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
Originally Posted by cobe View Post
I have seen amphibians with what has been said to be SLS and the front and back legs appear to be well formed but the animal struggled to carry their own weight only to die after a few days... This specimen does appear to be weak and scrawny....
This is not SLS
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Old 05-18-2020, 05:41 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Thank you all for your responses. I lost the frog (which I was expecting when I found him in such a state). I am just trying to get to the bottom of his death so I can prevent it in the future.
The mold/ substrate in the previous photos was not his tank. That was the tank I was setting up to move him into. I added new plants which sprouted mold when I stored them in his old tank, and are causing mold in the new tank. I assume the substrate is too wet rather than dry because itís moist to the touch. This is the tank he was/is currently living:


As far as nutrition I can see he looks underfed. Especially with me being gone a couple days. He also had a dry spell a couple weeks ago do to new fruit fly media taking forever to ship due to the virus. His vitamins are these:
If these are the wrong vitamins please let me know.
This was my first frog and I loved him so much. He was always so bold and would sit with me when I sat at my desk. He will be missed.
I donít want to let the same mistake ruin these wonderful little beauties.
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Old 05-18-2020, 05:44 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

To add to the previous statement: I have had the frog for two years and he has always been active. All I can come to blaming in my mind was the mold the plants brought.
I definitely see where nutritionally he looks lacking. It is harder for me to tell as he was my only frog.
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Old 05-18-2020, 06:20 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Yes, Rep Cal products are the wrong vitamins. Repashy Calcium Plus, dusted on all feeders, is the right supplement.

I doubt this is the main cause of the loss, though. Please do give the information I requested above so that we can help diagnose for future reference.
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Old 05-18-2020, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

The temp was 75. Dropped approx. 4 degrees at night. Only recently though, Iíve been keeping the window open at night since the weather warmed. Humidity was 75%. Is there any other info Iím missing?
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Old 05-18-2020, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

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The temp was 75. Dropped approx. 4 degrees at night. Only recently though, Iíve been keeping the window open at night since the weather warmed. Humidity was 75%. Is there any other info Iím missing?
Quote:
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Posting a description of your viv parameters and habits and history would help diagnose, as well as providing full viv pics.
Well, the more info you give, the more likely someone will find the cause.

How often did you feed? What feeder? How often supplemented?

Misting schedule?

Viv size? Pics of viv? Past pics of frog?

What care was given during your recent absence? By whom? Trustworthy person?

Where and when did you buy these new plants that the frog was exposed to? Did you treat the plants to ensure that they were safe for animal exposure? How?

Why the new viv in planning?

Etc, etc. Anything that seems relevant.
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:22 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

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Well, the more info you give, the more likely someone will find the cause.

How often did you feed? What feeder? How often supplemented?

Misting schedule?

Viv size? Pics of viv? Past pics of frog?

What care was given during your recent absence? By whom? Trustworthy person?

Where and when did you buy these new plants that the frog was exposed to? Did you treat the plants to ensure that they were safe for animal exposure? How?

Why the new viv in planning?

Etc, etc. Anything that seems relevant.

I feed fruit flys. I used to feed approx every other day until a few months ago when I noticed he was getting thin. Then I upped to once a day. With a day or two off a week.
I never misted because the humidity was always so high. Iíve always had a water dish for him which he enjoyed bathing in.
He was in a ten gallon getting ready to move to a twenty. He had been there since he was a froglet. I wanted to get him a new tank so he would have more room and buy 1 more frog so he wasnít lonely. I also thought his old tank was getting overgrown.
The new plants were from glass box tropicals. I put them directly into his old tank for safe keeping while I was finishing up the 20 gal. After two days they had grown mold. I removed them when it was time to place them in the new tank. I washed them with water before putting them in the new tank where they also sprouted mold.
When I leave nobody feeds him. He is left on his own. I wish I had somebody to look after him. Especially this time so he could have been found sooner.
Here are past photos of him:




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Old 05-18-2020, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinnmquinn View Post
I feed fruit flys. I used to feed approx every other day until a few months ago when I noticed he was getting thin. Then I upped to once a day. With a day or two off a week.
I never misted because the humidity was always so high. I’ve always had a water dish for him which he enjoyed bathing in.
He was in a ten gallon getting ready to move to a twenty. He had been there since he was a froglet. I wanted to get him a new tank so he would have more room and buy 1 more frog so he wasn’t lonely. I also thought his old tank was getting overgrown.
That's all useful info.

I assume the viv wasn't vented (high humidity, no misting). CO2 build up (acute or chronic) could have played a role, as could inability to thermoregulate (you said the temps have been increasing, and frogs need to take up water and then evaporate it in order to cool themselves). Frogs drink through the skin on their belly, though not necessarily submerged in water (they find moist substrate). Decent passive ventilation, along with daily misting, is known to work well. Inadequate ventilation is not known to work well, nor is the absence of misting.

Humidity is only one factor (and a poor one, IMO) in determining how moist a viv is. Searching threads about 'misting' ans 'ventilation' here can give useful tips. In short, misting gives water to the frogs and plants, while ventilation controls the humidity.

For future planning: frogs don't get 'lonely' so far as we know, though possibly tankmates are mentally stimulating which is probably beneficial. Darts are territorial to some extent, so adding in random new frogs is not always going to go well. Raising two up together, and watching for issues, is a good way to go.

Oh, and do throw away those RepCal supplements before you move forward.
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:43 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

I definitely agree the humidity/ temp was always a bit high. Iíd try to ďburpĒ his tank everyday when I fed him. When Iíd open his tank a warm stagnant air would come from it. I always worried he was too bottled up in there.
I added a computer fan to the new tank. Would this be a correction to that problem?
As for the mold (even if it wasnít the culprit) how do I remove it? Iíve been reading the forum and found many people used hydrogen peroxide. I see how this would work for spot treatment, but completely eradicating it?
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:44 PM
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"When I leave nobody feeds him. He is left on his own. I wish I had somebody to look after him. Especially this time so he could have been found sooner."

How long were you gone?

Was this a pattern of leaving the frog without dusted fruit flies?
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Old 05-18-2020, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

I was gone for two nights. I havenít been leaving a lot due to quarantine. But longest heís been left is a week and that was long ago. Probably 2-3 days at a time per month regularly.


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Old 05-18-2020, 10:45 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinnmquinn View Post
I definitely agree the humidity/ temp was always a bit high. Iíd try to ďburpĒ his tank everyday when I fed him. When Iíd open his tank a warm stagnant air would come from it. I always worried he was too bottled up in there.
I added a computer fan to the new tank. Would this be a correction to that problem?
As for the mold (even if it wasnít the culprit) how do I remove it? Iíve been reading the forum and found many people used hydrogen peroxide. I see how this would work for spot treatment, but completely eradicating it?
Reading ventilation threads will be most useful to you. It isn't just a matter of adding a fan and watching the magic happen.

Reading threads on mold, too, will be enlightening.
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Old 05-19-2020, 05:22 AM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Thank you, I'll be doing that. I'm sure that is the offender here. It's just a 10 gallon with a glass lid.
That is how this 20 gallon long is too. I'll look into ventilation because it seems tricky for something meant for fish :/
My question is how do you know there is enough ventilation/ airflow? It's not like there's a gauge similar to thermometer or hydrometer.


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Old 05-19-2020, 09:04 AM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
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I was gone for two nights. I haven’t been leaving a lot due to quarantine. But longest he’s been left is a week and that was long ago. Probably 2-3 days at a time per month regularly.


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A healthy frog can easily go a week without food. If the tank is properly seeded with microfauna like springtails and isopods they can go even longer without food.

Not feeding for two nights is likely not the real cause of death here, I feed my adult frogs only three times per week and some of them are frankly borderline obese. Most likely this was just the last straw to push him over the edge.
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Old 05-19-2020, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinnmquinn View Post
Thank you, I'll be doing that. I'm sure that is the offender here. It's just a 10 gallon with a glass lid.
That is how this 20 gallon long is too. I'll look into ventilation because it seems tricky for something meant for fish :/
My question is how do you know there is enough ventilation/ airflow? It's not like there's a gauge similar to thermometer or hydrometer.


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I am pretty new here so I don't know anything about frog health. But if you have enough ventilation you should be seeing rises and falls in humidity throughout the day. More after you mist and then gradual decline till you need to mist again. If your tank is sealed shut then clearly humidity is going to remain high all the time.

As to how to add ventilation. Easiest way for an aquarium in horizontal configuration is to add it to the top. You can drill any non-tempered glass with diamond drill bits. (look up videos on drilling aquariums). The sides can also be done but you will want to turn the aquarium over so the part being drilled is facing down. Thus you will need to empty it first.
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Old 05-19-2020, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: Emergency frog paralyzed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinnmquinn View Post
My question is how do you know there is enough ventilation/ airflow? It's not like there's a gauge similar to thermometer or hydrometer.
Actually, I have two gauges in each of my vivs: (1) plants, and (2) frogs. Watching them tells me if the ventilation is suitable.

This is why reading many threads on the subject (on this subject, and on any other subjects of viv keeping) is so important, and is much more helpful than the 'ask question get answer' approach: the subtleties involved in reading the signs that plants and animals give cannot effectively be listed in Q&A format. Reading what everyone has said here over the years about ventilation will give the reader the understanding they need.

Also -- and even more importantly -- reading many threads will suggest questions a person never thought to ask, which I think is what is at the heart of the problems you've had with your frog: unsuspected problems with care.

The knowledge that a person can inadvertently stumble over here is priceless. Read enough threads here, and one realizes that certain supplements are unsuitable. Read enough threads here, and one realizes that a fully sealed viv is unsuitable. Read enough threads here, and one realizes that losing weight is not necessarily caused only by insufficient provision of food. Read enough threads here, and one realizes that venting a fish tank is very challenging, and is only one advantage of enclosures designed for terrestrial/arboreal animals over those designed for aquatics. You get the idea.
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