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Old 03-30-2019, 04:31 AM
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Default Strange U shaped lump

Please help. I have no idea what this could be. It resembles a worm underneath the skin.
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Old 03-31-2019, 04:08 AM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

Is this in the same tank as the terribilis with the abrasion?

What are your temps. humidity, etc?

Any behaviour changes? Did this appear suddenly? Or grow over a period of time?

I'm not too sure what's going on, but maybe someone will be able to chime in with some more info
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Old 03-31-2019, 11:48 AM
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No different that one is healing fine. Humidity is usually 75-80% temps 70-75. It’s not acting differently. My best guess is maybe it climbed to the top of the bin and jumped off maybe dislocated something?
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Old 04-04-2019, 05:07 PM
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I found this picture of a black foot with a similar almost identical marking. That curved lump right above the shoulder.
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Old 04-04-2019, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

I'm no expert, but that looks an awful lot like his shoulder blade, and that it's sticking out awkwardly.
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Old 04-04-2019, 07:32 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

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I'm no expert, but that looks an awful lot like his shoulder blade, and that it's sticking out awkwardly.
Thats what i thought initially but it will not go away and it is not present on any of the other frogs nor was it visible when i received this frog. He isnt sick he is eating well which lead me to believe it was some sort of bone issue like a dislocation or something.
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Old 04-04-2019, 07:48 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

That's essentially what I'm saying. It looks like a dislocated shoulder blade. Maybe he should see your vet for an accurate diagnosis.
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Old 04-04-2019, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

Ouch. Poor guy.
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Old 08-06-2019, 04:06 AM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

I feel bad for the guy, any updates?
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Old 08-06-2019, 05:30 AM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

Phylobro, I think you are correct.

It looks like a subcutaneous nematode.

These can be self limiting in other sturdier herps, they are very common in Garters and other generalist feeders as they are easily removed manually, but it is a whole different ballgame of delicacy and approach with a dart frog.

You would need an AARAV practitioner for help.
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Old 08-09-2019, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

I completely forgot about this thread but i will update with some pictures later today. The frog is still alive and still hs the weird lump. It is like a bump protruding from by its ear hole its the weirdest thing i have no idea what it is other than maybe something to do with his bones. It moves, eats, hops like any other frog would. I didnt take it to a vet because even at the time i noticed it didnt seem to bother it at all so i figured it was something genetic.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:38 PM
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Here are updated pics. I’ve named him Bones because of his condition. Like I’ve said it has never shown any sign of pain or illness. Just kind of ugly lol
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Old 08-14-2019, 01:22 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

He obviously cannot move his left arm. It seems that it stands in the same angle all the time.

Maybe you should visit a vet. Maybe he can relocate the arm and it will be better for him.
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:14 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

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He obviously cannot move his left arm. It seems that it stands in the same angle all the time.

Maybe you should visit a vet. Maybe he can relocate the arm and it will be better for him.
How can you tell from a picture? LOL He moves fine dude. Like ive said multiple times. It has not affected his life in any way. If it was an injury its healed long ago. I noticed this when it was just a froglet what would a vet have done? probably put it down. If you are going to begin to accuse me of being cruel, im taking another frog to the vet this Saturday. I do not neglect my frogs or any animal but thank you for being so considerate towards my frog.
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Old 08-14-2019, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

Maybe he should get a little wheelchair, and some physical therapy.

Seriously, thank you for updating the thread. Other than being lumpy, he looks good. After five months, he's obviously going to make it.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:56 AM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

Well, it is interesting. Whether its a bone lesion or cartilaginous growth, or a migrant nematode that has found its way sub q (the more common thing, which are of many kinds and often position in a stiff coil, not always soft and wiggly as one would think of a 'worm', I do hope you keep us updated.

I also of course wish continued presentation of wellness, but if things change and he is lost, by all means take a more invasive peek, if you know what I mean. Even if you do so yourself without a Veterinarians help, with some good close ups it would increase the body of observable data.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:22 PM
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Well, it is interesting. Whether its a bone lesion or cartilaginous growth, or a migrant nematode that has found its way sub q (the more common thing, which are of many kinds and often position in a stiff coil, not always soft and wiggly as one would think of a 'worm', I do hope you keep us updated.

I also of course wish continued presentation of wellness, but if things change and he is lost, by all means take a more invasive peek, if you know what I mean. Even if you do so yourself without a Veterinarians help, with some good close ups it would increase the body of observable data.
Oh definitely and i might take him to get checked out anyway just out of curiosity but im positive its bone. you can just see it is in person its really obvious. I really dont think there is much that can be done for him though. Even if the doctor offered some type of surgery im sure i wouldnt be able to afford it unfortunately. That is why my dog is insured. Too many sad stories about having to put animals down because the owner could not afford a procedure. Anyway i will update if i do take him otherwise the frog is totally fine.
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Old 08-15-2019, 05:45 PM
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Yeah its tricky. I have had the custody, so to speak, of animals with problems that the handing and transport itself constitutes certain stress and possible harm, so I just did the best I could to make sure their lives were peaceful and full of good things and the best conditions I could make for them.

If it doesnt interfere with locomotion, feeding, or seem to cause fear or pain which I really do think can be detected in suppressed behavior, the only other thing would be how it might affect his self esteem on the Dating Scene with the other frogs. heehee.

It really looks like a nematode to me, esp in some pics, but its important for a viewer (or any explorer of information) to acknowledge ones own bias in what "they" have experienced. And, on the other side, acknowledge what they have not.

Your post was so interesting it got me looking at frog scapulas on a deeper level. In some skeleton examples I noticed a subtle ridge intra border that reminded me of your guys albeit extra ridgey formation, and as Im typing makes me wonder if its an unusual yet harmless congenital anomaly.
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Old 08-21-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by PhylloBro View Post
If you are going to begin to accuse me of being cruel, im taking another frog to the vet this Saturday. I do not neglect my frogs or any animal but thank you for being so considerate towards my frog.
Never intended to do so. Sorry if you got that wrong. I also didn't read that he is in that condition over a longer time. Just saw his leg on all pics in the same angle and thought he cannot move it.
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:15 AM
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Really sucks I have to revisit this thread with bad news but somethings going on with the frog. Bones has lost interest in food which is a giant red flag since this handicapped frog is by far the most aggressive eater. I gave it a day because the day I noticed it didn’t eat it had started to shed. It’s been 2 days now and still nothing. I’m taking it to the vet this weekend. I have to pick up dewormer for a Bicolor that day as well so two birds I guess? The thing is I really do not think it is related to it’s injury. Why all of a sudden would it effect it this way? It can still move around as well. It just doesn’t have an appetite. I’m torn between getting a fecal first or an x ray since behaviorally I would go with a fecal first but the injury is so pronounced I’m dying to know what’s going on there and if it’s affecting it in any way. They’re both expensive but X ray is double a fecal. I’ll probably just see what the vet says. I’ll update later.
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Old 09-11-2019, 03:45 PM
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Sorry you are having so much trouble, Phyllo. Sounds like a tough situation. You are reading things the same way I would have. I guess the vet should have some insight into the best way to proceed. I am glad that Bones has an owner that is willing to do the right thing to take care of him. Well done.

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Old 09-11-2019, 09:23 PM
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Sometimes it takes a while for parasite loads to impact feeding veracity.

At first, it can even increase it.

Please keep us informed to his diagnostics and well being.

He looks like a great frog.
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Old 09-12-2019, 03:27 AM
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I just found Bones dead.. a few days ago he was perfectly healthy. It still looks like a healthy frog it didn’t even deteriorate it’s just dropped dead.. I made the appointment Already and I want to see if I can still get the body looked at to see if there is anything threatening the others. I’ve put it in a ziplock and put it in the fridge. I have a suspicion. I have a ton of ants and I’ve got borax traps everywhere. I’ve read these are not fatal in small amounts if an ant with it is ingested by a frog but it’s possible Bones was gobbling them down and i wasn’t noticing. I’m gonna get prices and go from there. I feel terrible for the guy. RIP Bones..
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:57 PM
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Default Re: Strange U shaped lump

Sorry to hear that, man. That has to be tough. I think it's definitely worth getting a necropsy. Keep us posted. The only upside of any of this is what we might be able to learn as a community so that this doesn't happen again.

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Old 09-12-2019, 11:03 PM
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Sorry to hear that, man. That has to be tough. I think it's definitely worth getting a necropsy. Keep us posted. The only upside of any of this is what we might be able to learn as a community so that this doesn't happen again.

Mark
Called the vet and asked if they do necropsies. They said they no. They only do them for birds and they arent in house. They send them off to a university to have them performed. She said they could do tissue samples but it would cost hundreds or thousands of dollars. Im assuming thats what she meant but she literally said hundreds of thousands of dollars lmao Ill search around but if anyone knows of an institution who performs necropsies on amphibians let me know. If it is thousands of dollars then forget it lol Another option is i dig around myself. I have done dissections before so it definitely wouldnt be a butchering. I am actually pretty good at it. It could reveal the injury but wouldnt tell me much else unless the parasites are visible to the human eye. Ill give the search to the end of the weekend before i buy a kit and have at it. I dont want the frog in my fridge much longer than that.
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:10 PM
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I don't know if you have a vet school close to you, but they will sometimes take on a job like that so that the students can learn.

Mark
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Old 09-13-2019, 01:46 AM
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I don't know if you have a vet school close to you, but they will sometimes take on a job like that so that the students can learn.

Mark
I had thought the same. I wanted a necropsy done on a gecko that died for no apparent reason a couple years ago, and the vet school at UW Madison refused to do it. My regular vet did a gross necropsy for me, but I think I got lucky to have her accept the task.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:36 AM
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Very sorry to hear Bones has died.

You could take a look, and some well lit photographs, before things degrade and mar gross visual.

Investigation honors his life, how can you resist?
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:45 PM
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I completely agree. I just bought a kit and a microscope. I have a work around idea. I once reached out to an entemology department and was able to speak directly to a professor. If i can collect samples and take clear images, maybe i can send these or share these on multiple platforms and get intelligent responses from qualified people. This is the cheapest and most reliable choice since i have no idea if or when i could find someone to do a necropsy, and i dont know if i would be able to afford it. Another factor is the images will remain in their current state while the body continues to deteriorate which give increases the range of opinions i can get over time from different sources. I will post them when i am able to. Overall, this totally sucks and i just miss my frog. I have two parts i want to focus on. The shoulderblade and the gut. If there is other things i should pay closer attention to i will take suggestions.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:00 PM
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If i can collect samples and take clear images, maybe i can send these or share these on multiple platforms and get intelligent responses from qualified people.
Though I don't think this will result in a diagnosis, this would be an awesome learning experience in itself. I hope you do it, and please start a thread here.

I'm sorry about the loss of your frog. I appreciate you sharing the continuing aftermath; many folks would have just walked away from the discussion.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:53 AM
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Yes balls are dropped often on internet forums. A screen of handily managed unaccountability.

A sudden death can be not as sudden as it seemed depending on who's watching. But your engagement is clear.

Sudden death can be caused by the damaging infiltration of parasites interfering - finally - with mechanical function of a major organ. With migrant forms it can be liver, lungs, kidney, brain.

often these are organisms that can be seen with the naked eye. Its the sudden crash that is sometimes a clue.

Similar in presentation to a non pathogenic Mechanical Death.
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:27 PM
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A decent necropsy can be done with a pair of short, sharp scissors and some common tweezers. I dont think a complete histology series is expected.

I did one with some sharp pointed odds and ends in a desk supply cup and it showed cause - clear enough to be journaled.

I think many people would like to see whats under that scapula with a simple peel.

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Old 09-18-2019, 11:28 PM
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Not sure what you decided to do, but if you still have the body I would just go ahead and cut man. if its been frozen, histology is not going to be very helpful. Most bodies that are necropsied in vet med are done immediately post mortem or within 24hrs (refrigerated) if you are looking for histopathologic cause of death. If it is a gross anatomical abnormality you should be able to identify it.
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:57 PM
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Im not great at navigating my lap top but it looks like to me, per your photos posts that the "injury" had moved from initial shoulder area towards temporal region.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:01 AM
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Not sure what you decided to do, but if you still have the body I would just go ahead and cut man. if its been frozen, histology is not going to be very helpful. Most bodies that are necropsied in vet med are done immediately post mortem or within 24hrs (refrigerated) if you are looking for histopathologic cause of death. If it is a gross anatomical abnormality you should be able to identify it.
Still have it. Yes its frozen. I havent had time. Just googled right now about it. What i found is that there are a lot of changes that occur that damage or obstruct viewing but it isnt a total fail. The tests were done on dogs but described as a nuisance but didnt prevent diagnosis.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3944568

But this is done with a special procedure that i dont think i am qualified to perform. LOL

It sounds like it should be immediately obvious via scope if the damage from freezing was too much. I really hope not but we will see. I will try to do it today.

Last edited by PhylloBro; 09-19-2019 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:03 AM
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Im not great at navigating my lap top but it looks like to me, per your photos posts that the "injury" had moved from initial shoulder area towards temporal region.
Yea thats an accurate observation. I assumed it was just due to the frog growing naturally. I really cant wait to look at that part. We will have the answers here soon. Thank you all for all of the advice and concern. This is obviously new territory for me and i would be clueless without all of your input
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:20 AM
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This sounds simple enough for me.

Of course, fixing fresh tissue in 10% formalin will give you the best slides for histopathological examination. However, in the past we have fixed brain and liver tissue that had been stored at -70oC and the integrity of the tissue after fixation was very good.
Take ice cold 10% formalin (keep it on ice) and put your tissue straight from the freezer into the ice cold 10% formalin. Leave it in the fridge for 24 hours (depending on size of course) and than you an store it at room temperature. Good luck.

I should add, my freezing process was just popped in the fridge and then in the freezer after a couple days. xD We shall see what damage has occured. Fingers crossed.

Last edited by PhylloBro; 09-19-2019 at 12:22 AM.
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Old 09-19-2019, 12:40 AM
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Formalin arrives 9/24 - 9/27 so cant do it today. This information should be very useful to others. I am learning a lot.
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:30 AM
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So after more reading, the formalin is a longshot but it’s worth it. What it’s supposed to do I think is prevent even worse damage that occurs during thawing. Then it can be stored and observed at room temp with hopefully minimal damage. There will be damage from freezing but the thawing is what will really ruin the tissue.

The problem is, fixing something as large as an entire frog in formalin. It sounds like it’s possible but will take longer to penetrate.
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:46 PM
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So I am a veterinarian, I have done some training on the necropsy floor in vet school and autolysis and freezing will definitely cause a lot of issues on definitive diagnosis, yes there are some exceptions. Tissues submitted for immunohistochemistry (viral) will typically be frozen to keep the viral particles "intact". So if this was something like ranavirus and you wanted to submit tissue for IHC to a diagnostic lab - no problem. You won't be able to get many of the commercially needed stains for home use. You can buy gram stain but unlikely to be helpful.

I would cut into the scapular region, see if it is indeed a cutaneous nematode or if it was a dislocation injury. In freezing the tissues you distort all coloration that would be helpful in diagnosing if it was a pre-mortem injury or if it was the cause of death. Feel free to post pictures of what you find! I can see if I can help identify anything
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