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Old 06-22-2005, 12:58 AM
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Default Tadpole food Experiment - UPDATE 7-2-2005

Ok I started this experiment to try to see what tadpole food would produce the healthiest frogs.

Thanks to Quality Captives who donated the auratus tads for the test!

Food tested:
Algae Mix (Spirulina and Chlorella)
Brine Shrimp (dried)
Fish Food
Frog Bites
Sera Micron

Conditions:
- seperate containers
- treated tap water that was also aged
- home made black water extract added to the water
- couple of leaf pieces (magnolia)
- fed twice a week (Wed. and Sat.)
- weekly water changes

Update 7/2/2005
Algae Mix:
2 out of the water - average days=89 - average weeks=12.7
Brine Shrimp:
4 out of the water - average days=82.25 - average weeks=11.8
Fish Food:
5 out of the water - average days=80 - average weeks=11.4
Frog Bites:
5 out of the water - average days=73.8 - average weeks=10.5
Sera Micron:
0 out of the water

Please note this is early data as only half of the tads are out of the water:
So far no algea or Sera Micron tads are out of the water yet, and they are much smaller than the tads on the other three foods. I will post more after the rest are out of the water and can answer any questions needed. I had hoped to be able top post pics, but due to work did not get to take them. I have personally been using Frog Bites for all my tads for about 8 months or so with great results, which is another reason why I started this test.

Update 7/2/2005:
Just wanted to post an update. So far the only tads remaining are all on hte Sera Micron. Not one has come out of the water yet and not one even has front legs yet. As for the others they are all doing well and eating. I did lose one Algae tad for unknown reasons.

Chlorella , and Spirulina powers are human grade and list the info by grams per Tsp. The protein is 2g and 5g per Tsp.

Fish Food TatraMin Tropical Flakes:
Crude Protein: 48%
Min. Crude Fat 8%
Max. Crude Fiber: 2%

Sera Micron:
Crude Protein: 52.1%
Crude Fat: 5.8%
Crude Fiber: 9.6%

Hikari Brine Shrimp:
Crude Protein: 47%
Crude Fat: 5.5%
Crude Fiber: .5%

Frogbites:
Crude Protein: 42%
Crude Fat: 16%
Crude Fiber: 3%
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:09 AM
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Hey, who makes these frog bites and where can we get them?
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:13 AM
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http://www.hbhnet.com/products.html
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:24 AM
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Hey Kyle, is this a good price?

http://www.herpsupplies.com/product.cfm?id=AHH20003
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:25 AM
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I think they sell those at petsmart also
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:27 AM
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True, but i would rather support the "little guy" than chain stores
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:34 AM
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Very interesting. I'm surprised that frog bites beat everything else(and I'm assuming algae mix is what people normally use).

If you eve decide to run this test again how about using frozen bloodworms or live blackworms in it? Or perhaps different kinds of fish food...
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:38 AM
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jmcc000 I agree 100%. Big pet stores (and alot of little ones) suck and arent good for anything except dog and cat supplys. All the help is well under qualified.
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Old 06-22-2005, 02:55 AM
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So true. When i first got married i worked parttime at Petland. The reptile manager had no clue and neither did any of the others. The bad thing about these places is that they have to go by a set guideline on the way things have to be done. If they do not do things exactly how they're told they get fined. Needless to say i did not work there long.
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Old 06-22-2005, 03:21 AM
 
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Default tadpole feeding

Were you able to offer equal amounts of food type (by gram) to each tadpole or group of tads during every feeding?
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Old 06-22-2005, 03:21 AM
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Was the same amount of each food given?
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Old 06-22-2005, 03:41 AM
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Kyle is going to be answearing questions for days. I can see it now.
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:44 AM
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Well the frogbites run from $1.50 to $4.00 depending where you get them so if your at the lower end you found a good price.

As for the measuring of the food. No I did not exactly measure the food as I do not have a gram scale. I will say since I only feed them twice a week I did feed them heavy with all foods. I would say I got it close to the same amount of each food, but it was not exact. I would like to note that one of the reasons I personally switch to frog bites after a smaller scale experiment was that the froglets were clearly larger then the ones I was raising on Algae.

I will also note that all of the tads seemed to do well on all of the foods I tried. They should all morph out, but in the end I think some of the foods are a bit better.
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Old 06-22-2005, 05:43 PM
 
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I have had good success with mixing GNC human grade spirulina, chlorella, and frog and tad bites from HBH. The HBH doesn't seem to dirty up the water as badly as fish foods.
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Old 06-22-2005, 08:59 PM
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Yes I agree the Frogbites do not dirty the water as bad as fish food.
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Old 06-22-2005, 11:22 PM
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Great now the company is going to find out there product works and jack up the price just wait. :x
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Old 06-23-2005, 12:16 AM
 
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how were the ages and batches of the tadpoles treated with this experiment?

are you sure that all the tadpoles were approximately the same age? I have noticed that some batches of tadpoles from even the same frog have different sizes and growth rates regardless of the type of food beign fed.

that brings up the point that if the batches of tadpoles were not intermixed for the feeding test, then it may be a batch specific faster growth rate rather than an actual food being better.

just some thoughts! either way I am going to purchase some Frog Bites and try them out I may try this same test on my Vent tads, as I have about 8 batches all with the date they hatched on the container they are in. Maybe different foods have different effects between Thumbs and Large PDF's?
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Old 06-23-2005, 12:41 AM
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I did just as you said. I had tads from 3 clutches and mixed them up between the foods. I did track each from its laid date to morphed date.
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:19 AM
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If you want this to qualifie under experiment you will have to try more then once at least three times. But sounds great.
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:22 AM
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I agree and I may try it again, but like I said noticed a size and speed increase with my own tads before comparing them side by side.
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Old 06-23-2005, 02:58 AM
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The frog bites, tadpole bites and salamander bites are all the same, just the size of the pellets varies, am I correct? I hope we're talking about the same thing.

If you guys want, I will duplicate the experiment at a larger scale...I just need someone to donate few thousand tadpoles...any volunteers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyle1745
I agree and I may try it again, but like I said noticed a size and speed increase with my own tads before comparing them side by side.
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:36 AM
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Ok i have permission. I was talking with my mom about your experiment and i asked if i could do an experiment. NOW it gets better she works in a lab and said i could set up a little area in her workspace where i could have everything controlled including

Temperature

Quanity of Food

2 times a week water change ( with the highest tech R/O unit you have ever seen but any ideas on what to add so there are some mineral Blackwater?)

Dates they morph out

I will also attempt trying to mark when they sprout legs.

The only problem is having a tad that just isnt normal and messing with the results


I would like someone to volunteer 12 tadpoles cannabalistic or non cannabalistic doesnt matter. ( no egg feeders obviously) There will be four foods three tadpoles per food. If you can volunteer more i can do more foods.

I would like to know what foods people want to know the most amount.
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:40 AM
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I'd like to see how blackworms compare with the rest since I've heard of a few using them. Other brands of fishfood(Hikari...maybe try the Micropellets), etc. etc.
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Old 06-23-2005, 03:50 AM
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I would really like to use at least one live food whether blackworms, dapnia, brine shrimp, etc. The only thing with live foods is it is harder to measure how much they get and what the live food is fed.

If you have the tadpoles to volunteer please pm me or e- mail me.
E-mail [email protected]

Any ideas appreciated.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:24 AM
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Blackworms will be much easier to weigh than daphnia etc. for sure. Daphnia seem to have promise for use as food though...they probably eat lots of small crustaceans and insect larvae in the wild.

Btw, this is probably asking way too much but it would be cool to run experiments to see what water volume does to speed and size of tadpoles. I was browsing the Frognet archives which had lots of info on this.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:27 AM
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it all pretty much depends on how much space i will have to work with and how many tads i can get.

I think this will give us the best results being that it is in a labe with controlled variables.
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:32 AM
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Frozen bloodworms, brineshrimp, or tubifex worms would be a good idea to try. There are new frozen brine shrimp impregnated with chlorella and spirulina that just came out also, those might be good to try. I would think that frozen foods have a much higher nutrient value than any of the dry foods...would be a good variable to try out.

Luke
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Old 06-23-2005, 04:36 AM
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Keep the ideas flowing this is all great. I think i will start a new thread.

Kyle i feel uncertain what you feel about my plan not to take your credit but you are the one ywho inspired me to get this going so i am just trying to help all of us. Are you cool with that?
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Old 06-23-2005, 10:37 AM
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No worries my thought with starting this test was to get people thinking, and trying themselves. I may try again and try to track down a gram scale. From my standpoint the only thing missing would be exact food amounts. One issue I think that will pop up is that the same quantity of food in some cases may foul the water to the point that it kills the tad. For example some Fish Food you would have to use very lightly.

I can also tell you temperature and water levels were exactly the same. I used 8oz of water in 16oz cups and the temps ran from 70-74.

Also please note that only have of my tads are out of the water so there is more data to come. I can also see about getting another batch started and pick up a gram scale.

I have all the exact dates and data like you said and I used frogs from 3 different clutches and mixed them through out the test. So while I agree more testing is needed I think I have shown that based on my conditions frogbites, fish food, and Brine shrimp can produce larger tads that come out of the water faster.
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Old 06-23-2005, 12:36 PM
 
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Default tadpole exp.

You can bypass the fouling of the water by performing daily water changes. In addition one might crush fish flakes and pellet food into powder before offering to tads; this reduces competition for foraging space and standardizes the efficiency by which they ingest their food.
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Old 06-23-2005, 01:21 PM
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I doubt the ammount of food given will make a large differnce. The tads will eat what they can in one sitting and then all that extra food sits there to be cleaned up. Its not the biggest concern to see how much food is given cause im sure that enough is given that the tad does not want any more. The problem here is that this test was only done to a few tads and odds say that in a first trial run any results can come out. This theory has to be tested on more then 10 or 20 tads, and we will not get the right answer until we get feedback from more than just one person. Any of us who have tads growing should try different foods and see what happens, then bring all our thoughts together and the hypothesis will form on what is better and what is worse. This takes the brains and minds of all of us and its not a discussion that will be solved in just one forum.

* i myself only feed my tads live foods....FF's, blood works,ants, or anything live that they will devower, and they seem to morph out all in one piece * NATURE DOES IT SO WHY SHOULDNT WE
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Old 06-23-2005, 09:55 PM
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Well actually for the frogbites that would foul the water. Its better to leave then in the bites. I did crush the fish food, and broke up the brine shrimp as I put it in the container. Also note I had them each in separate containers so there was no fighting for food.

Like I said before I agree and welcome more to try these and other foods as I agree there needs to be more testing. I will say I have raised 50-100 tads on frogbites alone with great success.
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Old 06-24-2005, 02:30 AM
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I picked up some frogbites today and I am looking forward to seeing how they work out
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Old 06-24-2005, 02:47 AM
 
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I picked some up too! I like them already, way easier than trying to spoon out powders.
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Old 06-24-2005, 03:50 AM
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I'm not so sure about tads eating the same amount. Almost all the adult frogs that I know of will stuff themselves right to obesity if given enough food. And we all know that some tads grow faster and larger than others.
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Old 06-24-2005, 10:37 AM
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I will say that with the frogbites they leftover bites will be in the bottom of the container. So its easy to see what they need and adjust. Now with powdered foods they seem to disolve in the water and then lay on the bottom a bit, but it is not as easy to tell if they have any left at the next feeding.
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:29 PM
 
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Kyle,

How about the size of froglets that come out of the water? Are they the same? some bigger than others?

I don't mind my tads stay in the water for a while as long as they grow bigger.

S
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Old 06-24-2005, 08:42 PM
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Thats the thing the froglets come out faster, larger and more active. Its a very noticable difference. I need to get a gram scale to see how much.
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Old 06-28-2005, 08:53 AM
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2 good sources of gram scales (esp. triple beams):
- eBay - of course!
- local police dept. - I've never tried this one but many folks on a listserv I subscribe to swear by it.


*edit* - just to clarify - the other listserv has nothing to do w/ illegal substances
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Old 06-28-2005, 10:58 AM
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Kyle,

I like your experiment. This is all very interesting. Can you give us a rundown on the amount of protein and fiber in each food? Iím a fish person who is just researching frogs but I will relate two accounts from raising killifish fry.

More water changes and larger volume of water = faster fry growth
Higher protein food = faster fry growth, but at a cost.

High protein food is difficult on the kidneys and liver. In fish it is thought to cause premature kidney failure resulting in bloat (a lethal condition). High protein diets are difficult on humans as well so it is probably not a reach to infer that protein may be hard on amphibians. Their phylogeny lies between that of fish and humans.

If frogbites are high in protein but low in roughage I would opt for the brine shrimp which has lots of roughage due to the chitin exoskeleton of the shrimp.

Just some thoughts,
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