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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-21-2005, 11:29 PM
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Do anyone know of a website where there is a lec and AZUREUS cross picture? I seen it ounce but lost it.
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:03 AM
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It's on Tracy Hicks' website.

http://www.tracyhicks.com/Kfrogs.htm

It's down at the bottom.

I produced those frogs by accident, they were in a large display tank at my work, proven pairs of leucs and azureus to boot. The female azureus found the leuc male irresistable. After that I also ended up with an azureus auratus cross (same female azureus). Needless to say I never took eggs from that tank again.

Darn cool looking frogs though.
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:15 AM
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Christina, could I show that picture of the hybrid frog leuco+azureus in the Canadian dart frog forum??????

If you want me to put your name in that picture I forsure would tell them to do soo.
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Old 03-22-2005, 12:26 AM
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I understand the Azuremelas is a delicate frog of rare beauty. I have been on the waiting list for years!
Mark
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:01 AM
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Hello,

It isn't my photo, so you would have to ask Tracy. I would take one for you but they were passed on as pets to another folk years ago (they were all females (4) ) BTW.

While I was a bit embarassed to produce it, even way back then hybrids were a no no, it is nice to see some of the combos that can happen....

While we're on the subject, by far the favorite frog in my display tank at work is that azureus auratus hybrid. Walls poo poo'd it, but that's a pretty frog. It also has a personality that's a cross of the two parents, so you actually see it out and about. Not condoning hybridizing even though I did it, but it is interesting to see genetics at work.
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Old 03-22-2005, 01:57 AM
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Thanx,
In a way it look similar to the Oelemarie morph. I was thinking of a program for hybrids. Instead of people destroying perfectly good eggs,tadpoles, frogs I would use them for research. Nothing special just how they would interact with certain gecko and other species. To help with these questions of what animals can coexist with what. But I don't want the chance of people seeing these crossed morphs and end up like leopard geckos. Such a good hobby turned into what new cross you can make (blizzard-carrottailetc).
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
I understand the Azuremelas is a delicate frog of rare beauty. I have been on the waiting list for years!
Mark
Man, do you not appreceate what were dealing with here. Allthough PDF's may not be endangered themselfs, thier habitat surely is. Why piss in the geene pool. Dont degrade us to the level of Dog breeders please.
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Old 03-22-2005, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
I understand the Azuremelas is a delicate frog of rare beauty. I have been on the waiting list for years!
Mark


Man, do you not appreceate what were dealing with here. Allthough PDF's may not be endangered themselfs, thier habitat surely is. Why piss in the geene pool. Dont degrade us to the level of Dog breeders please.

Wow, are you seriously that dense? He was joking around, its called sarcasm, give him a break.
Now that I got that dont think im trying to be mean, I just dont like it when people make crazy comments like that to a joke.
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:03 AM
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Yes I do appreceate.......appricte.........approveate...... ........the VERY (yes i am yelling) nature of this situation. Thank you for noticing.
Mark
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Old 03-22-2005, 11:13 AM
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Man, these forums do be geting a little heated when it come to hybrid dart frogs. :shock:
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:05 PM
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Thats ok, i dont really know you guys, and well, sarcasm doesn't come across too well unless youve got a smiley. May i suggest the 'roll eye's' icon for such witt in future, if only to avoid anyone reading verbatum gettin the wrong idea.

Im glad it was a joke, infact, im PLEASED it was a joke as it goes to show that good ethics is important.

Personally, if i had produced that frog, i would have taken it upin myself to unproduce it. C02 or something maybee. But thats just me, id hate to think that somewhere allong the line it could breed back inuntentionally.

Sorry peeps, no harm done.
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Old 03-22-2005, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markpulawski
I understand the Azuremelas is a delicate frog of rare beauty. I have been on the waiting list for years!
Mark
Mark...thanks for the humor...it was too off the wall to be taken as a serious comment...added a bit of levity to a subject that inspires quite a bit of impassioned commentary.

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Originally Posted by mouse
Personally, if i had produced that frog, i would have taken it upin myself to unproduce it. C02 or something maybee. But thats just me, id hate to think that somewhere allong the line it could breed back inuntentionally.
I'm not sure I could bring myself to actually euthanize a frog simply because I had mistakenly allowed a hybrid to come into the world. I would make very sure it never had a chance to propagate itself. But I understand your concern...I suppose the best policy is species separation to avoid the problem in the first place.

Bill
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Old 03-22-2005, 03:07 PM
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You know guys, this hybrid was produced many years ago. At that point it was the "understanding" that if you had pairs of frogs that were established in tanks hybridization would not occur. So that myth was busted, as they say on TV. However, these hybrids were isolated from other frogs, breeding was never an issue as they were all females. Also, as I stated above, even though I still have the community tank (it's very popular at the college) no eggs are ever pulled. I absolutely agree with you that hybrids should not be sold as new morphs or even as oddities. Todd and I have always tried to delineate the lines of our frogs and understand their value.

Mark has been to our house several times and I'm sure he has seen this hybrid. Mark covets everything we have, of course, like our cat and Sugar Ram the Woody. I guess his incredibly subtle humor got the best of you.

As for euthanization of frogs, that's a whole new topic, but no, I would not euthanize these animals for my own carlessness, I have enough confidence in my own self control to not offer these up for sale as a new morph.

Christina
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Old 03-22-2005, 07:09 PM
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I covet a basement so i can have a frog collection again!!! It's great to see such passion in this hobby, fortunately most of us do the right thing. I am on a waiting list for one of Todd and Christina's cat's as well as the elusive and quickly aging Azuremelas! I would settle for a green Bastimentos though (I've always had a generous nature).
Mark
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
As for euthanization of frogs, that's a whole new topic, but no, I would not euthanize these animals for my own carlessness, I have enough confidence in my own self control to not offer these up for sale as a new morph.
But your allready one mistake closer, and only one mistake away. The point in not allowing these morphs to be produced, is so they dont get the chane to damage the geene pool. By allowing one to live, who knows???, and by being the creator of that animal, its your responsiblity.

Id just hate to have my name in some future nature journal as the guy who fugged up dart frogs.

Just look at the mess they made of Orangutans, and these were PRO'S, and it was actually the conservatin effort itself that's destroyed them.

your choice, but its a weak decision. (not that thats really whats being discussed here, but i thought id offer my feelings)
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:26 AM
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In order for anyone to call a new morph I am pretty sure it would be looked into first. And you would need multiple bloodlines of that type of frog even to make it a potiential problem. Since still many people believe in not producing hybrids. Inbreeding for long generations will destroy the frog immune system(and other stuff)IMO. :roll:
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Old 03-23-2005, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouse
But your allready one mistake closer, and only one mistake away. The point in not allowing these morphs to be produced, is so they dont get the chane to damage the geene pool. By allowing one to live, who knows???, and by being the creator of that animal, its your responsiblity.
Yeah, and allowing homosexuals to marry leads us flying down a slippery slope where the human race dies out because there's no straight people left to have kids.

These hybrids have obviously been around for a long time, if they were made when it was considered OK to have pairs of different species in the same tank and they wouldn't interbreed. These particular hybrids haven't screwed up the hobby yet, have they?
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Old 03-23-2005, 03:55 PM
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Well in this case the frogs were all female, so I don't think they've contributed to the demise of the hobby. Franky I thought that after the cross occurred the responsible thing to do was to get it documented so there would never be an questions, and even if capable they never would have been bred.

I really do respect your militicism on the issue of hybrids, but I think you're confusing my intentions.

To reiterate, they were proven pairs in a 90 gallon display tank at a college, at that point (1996) the prevailing thought was paired frogs would mate with their "own". Also, these were leucs and azureus, not tincs and azureus. That in fact turned out to be false and no more eggs were ever taken from that tank. I do not believe in euthanasia unless the animal is suffering. I hope we have not lost sight of the fact that these are pets and we have to take responsibility for what we produce.

Christina
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:28 PM
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Yes,
This is what I was thinking. I couldn't kill a perfectly healthy egg, tadpole. or frog. Thats why I wanted to have a program for hybrids due to the fact that many people will not and can not kill a frog. This was not intentionable and was handled the right way I see no problem. A few frogs messing up the whole hobby. :?
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Old 03-23-2005, 07:48 PM
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id somebody keeps two different species in the same tank and they cross breed its their responsibility to care for them and their offspring. theres obvious moral implications of killing a frog which you are responsibel for just because its a hybrid and i dont know about in the USA but here in britain it would be illegal.
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Old 03-23-2005, 11:41 PM
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Hey mouse you need to lighten up, this was done 10 years ago by one of the most experienced breeders in the US. NOTHING negative came of it and it was reponsibly handled. It is JUST AN INTERSETING PICTURE!!!! You need to worry about your buddies from Europe continuing to export Chyrtid on a regular basis rather than 1 display tank.
Mark
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Old 03-24-2005, 01:41 AM
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I was at Black Jungle a week or so ago and they had a couple very iteresting hybrids. They had two froglets that were produced from a green pumilio and a nancy.
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Old 03-24-2005, 02:35 AM
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Eh? hybrid? Morphs? Inbred? outbred? Your all very sensitive to the nature of the hobby. Things to think about......the negative side of the hybrids is that the pure gene goes to $hit. Or so we think. But so does iresponsible breeding with no change in the bloodlines or encouargeing removal of these beauties from their home to be sold to our fetishly filthy habits as collectors. Why do we love them so? because they are beautiful, and unique. If they were all the same color, and khaki green like pea soup, then there would not be so many of us here on DendroBoard.com Lets face it, some of the hybrids are interesting to look at, and I challenge anyone to say different. Maybe all hybrids should be sent to a central frog only zoo with a 100,000 gal vivarium for them to live out their lives and see what come out of it. Maybe a breed that cures cancer, or aids. Or one that has the stars and stripes pattern on it. Or maybe a pattern that resembles the virgin mary. How much do you think that one would sell for.... :wink:
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:26 AM
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i'm willing to bet if ebay allowed it, that the stars and stripes frog would be bought by that online casino that buys all that junk for about 25k, temppting as it may be i won't be working on breeding one of those in the near future...
also sign me up for the 100,000 gallon viv project, what is that 380,000 litres for our european friends
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Old 03-24-2005, 04:50 AM
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LOL
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:49 AM
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Yea ok, im overreacting, so what's a few GM crops going to do, its not like itys the end of the world or anything. :roll:
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:10 AM
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BTW, there are no natural Oragutans in the world left for this very same reason.

Hybridise away, but there are plently of species where something like this would not be seen as irresponsible. I know it may not be your frog that escapes back into the wild, or even the offspring of your frog, but if it did, and it could be traced back to that frog, and it was you that created it, you could be the best Dartfrog breeder in the world and it wouldn't matter, it would still be your responsibility.

You could potentially introduce an animal that could outcompete, and eventually wipe out native poulations.

But yea, if you think their 'pretty', go ahead, whatever turns you on. Wouldn't want to infringe on your fun.
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:37 AM
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Hmm,
I don't think that hybrids would immediately start to breed with normal frogs due to the fact that the only reason why these hybris breed was because of constant contact. Yet it might be be possible but I think most frogs prefer there own species.IMO There is enough breeders that is against hybrids right now.This pure hobby can last at least 10 more years without someone making hybrids and selling them. Most likely longer if more newbies is informed on the topic like me. I think theres a very low chance of any frogs being able to go back to south america or other places darts is from. Poison arrow frogs are abundant in all different colors and patterns to with most people temptation to breed them. Most hybrids not including dogs began because most people had a few different colors and wanted new ones. Such as leopard geckos, not much variety. Finding new morphs in a great thing in the leopard gecko hobby. Thats why I can in the dart frog hobby, no brain busting thoughts on how I can try and make each morph better or a new one.
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:39 AM
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Sorry for my poor syntax in a hurry. :lol:
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Old 03-24-2005, 12:05 PM
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But with Gecko's and snakes your looking for different things within a species you can breed out, for example, Hypomenalism, Albenism, Pinstripes, red eyes, etc etc.

Your not inter species breeding.

Your never creating a new species, just developing rare morphs so they become more common.

And with regards to wild populations, they are small, localised, and in constant contact, because its the HABITAT which is threatened, not the species, so infact, their close proximity will only become closer.

You go mix a Tinc with a Leuc and produce a monster Tinc. Id say that frog would have a huge advantage over its comeptitors, literally.

But as i said, thats just my opinion, nothing more. People will do whatever they want, and allways do. And inevitagbly mess up at one point or another.

Lets not degrade these frogs to being 'pretty' trinkets whose only value is in the colour of their skin. There's enough people killing marine fish out there because they want a 'pretty' Dory or Nemo for their Hagan Nano. I would have hoped theat PDF's would have avoided the hype, seems not.
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Old 03-24-2005, 02:45 PM
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Hey all,
I didn’t want to get into this thread, mostly because I don’t have much to add, but has anyone considered that this hybrid is probably sterile?
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Old 03-24-2005, 02:56 PM
 
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[Disclaimer: opinions are written by someone who clones fruit flies and uses humor without warning... I also apologize for the hyphens I don’t usually use so many]

Perhaps some dark keepers think in the back of their mind that their darts might be called upon to repopulate depleted wild populations, but it not going to happen. The only way a hybrid is getting into the wild is deliberately, either by someone within South America purposefully hybridizing and releasing, or by some demented reverse smuggling of hybrids.

Quote:
And with regards to wild populations, they are small, localised, and in constant contact, because its the HABITAT which is threatened, not the species, so infact, their close proximity will only become closer.
I would contend that habitat destruction is causing even further isolation of populations. Frogs, as far as I’m aware, are not migratory. Habitat destruction is causing the direct loss of species, and creating ‘islands’ of populations which are physically separated through deforestation and development. If anything, further morph diversity would be expected and not hybridization.

Quote:
You go mix a Tinc with a Leuc and produce a monster Tinc. Id say that frog would have a huge advantage over its comeptitors, literally.
Hybrids do not by definition have a competitive advantage, the Azuremelas may be larger, but it’s lost much of its distinctive colouring possibly leaving it open to higher rates of predation. Additionally, if colour and pattern are a determination of mate selection, it may have a hard time finding mates (which way would an Azuremelas swing, leucs or azureus?, maybe we could start a poll).


Is there a minority who would like to produce and keep hybrids, yes. I don’t see this as a ethical concern. If that is what you wish, go for it, but be honest, don’t call a hybrid a new morph. If you like hybrids enough to produce them, have the balls to call them what they are.

Looking at this from a macro level, genes or the gene pool don’t ‘care’ about hybridizing, they just ‘want’ to propagate (a little Dawkins for you). That azureus thought the leuc was fine and worth pulling, so she didn’t ‘care’ about hybridization. Crossing F4, F5, F6…, isin’t so hot for diversity, but it does keep a pure line. What we are striving for is keeping the natural status quo as it stands presently. Diversity happens in nature, it takes a long time as it usually involves isolation, but it happens. Humans, acting like a funny looking land bridge, tend to speed things up, by hybridizing (almost like backwards engineering). One could argue that you are reuniting genes and traits which have been separated over time (some base pairs may be different, but you remember the good times don’t you?). You could also take keeping darts to a ridiculous level and only keep the most ‘primitive’ morph of tinc (whatever that would be), and not the Johnny-come-lately morphs (whatever that would be) which were freakishly isolated by some event.

I feel that the hybrid issue is a cultural issue, dart ‘hobbyist’ culture that is. There is preoccupation with nature within the dart community, of which mouse is a testament to. People want natural morphs, and even more so, want specific collection data if possible. There is acute attention paid to creating micro habitats, even as far as self sustaining ecosystems (BenE’s work). The majority of the community feels passionately about these elements of keeping darts, and that is likely why people are drawn towards keeping dart in the first place. As natural species and natural setups dominate the culture of dart keeping, this value will likely persist.
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Old 03-24-2005, 10:18 PM
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Thats what I thought that people want, a piece of the rainforest in there home and a hybrid isn't a part of it. They want a natural frog in a mimic natural habitat. If hybrids was starting to come into the hobby it would be very hard to call it a new morph. Multiple questions, where was the frog collected from,around what features, and more complicated questions that would instantly show this frog as being a hybrid. To many people that are looked up to don't believe in hybrids. I am sure that this hobby can withstand the teptation of producing a hybrid.IMO
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Old 03-24-2005, 11:23 PM
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I think most average people just want a pretty frog. I'm not talking about the people on this board, but I do believe that hybridization is inevitable. After what has happened to ball pythons and leopard geckos, do you really think that the people responsible will show any kind of restraint once they decide to switch to darts?
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Old 03-25-2005, 12:19 AM
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As far as I know hybrids have never been commercially viable, as a matter of fact I don't believe anyone on this forum would buy a hybrid for any reason and any "accidents" usually end on a display only status. As long as hybrids have zero commercial value this situation should be able to police itself.
On second thought mouse ....kick up a storm....the controversy is fun and keeps it interesting.
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Old 03-25-2005, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
But with Gecko's and snakes your looking for different things within a species you can breed out, for example, Hypomenalism, Albenism, Pinstripes, red eyes, etc etc.

Your not inter species breeding.

Your never creating a new species, just developing rare morphs so they become more common.
NOT TRUE, It's actually kind of a funny thing...I have always looked down on mixing species in snakes, Hell for that fact we keep "Locale" specific species of Rosy Boas, and Grey banded Kingsnakes. Recently we got in a trio of hybrids...Creamsicle corns. They are BEAUTIFUL, and are as vigorous of eaters as I have ever seen. What I finally realized is that our "pets" are never going to be re released. Having that said, would I ever hybridize PDF, absolutely NOT, for the simple matter that I have seen pics of the crosses and they aren't near as appealing as the Wild variations.

Quote:
After what has happened to ball pythons and leopard geckos, do you really think that the people responsible will show any kind of restraint once they decide to switch to darts?
Don't really know if I should be offended by this comment or not! LOL We "Switched" to darts a while back, and would not ever think of mixing species. HOWEVER, I don't believe either two of the species you mention are hybridized, inbred to hell and back, but not hybrids. Yes there are a few people crossing balls to blood pythons, and angolans...but the vall python morphs are almost purely from wild caught balls brought into the states, then proved out by dedicated breeders. Leo's are line bred for some traits, and some are simple recessive, I don't know of a hybridized leo either. If you look at a wild caught leopard gecko, they are fairly unattractive lizards that not very many would want to keep, however through captive breeding programs, there are tons of different looking leo's out now, and they are among the most popular pet reptile out there. With frogs they are unbelievable in the wild, and people think they are fake until they jump across the tank. I don't think darts will get respect as pets, as they are a "HEY look at my cool frog", not "Wanna hold my lizard". I don't think you have to worry about people making the "Switch" to darts, as most people want something they can take out and hold, not look into a tank (As beautiful as they maybe) at an amazing frog.

My dad said it best "Different strokes for different folks"

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Old 03-26-2005, 01:39 AM
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What the hell, might as well drop in my two cents.

The orang comment went over my head (not a primate person).

I believe the talk of leo gex, corn snakes, and ball pythons have a relation to the frog hobby, just not about interspecies breeding, but line breeding for traits. Look at the hype and contriversy of albinos (auratus, vents, tincs) every time pics have popped up. Breeding frogs in an effort to get more albinos (or only albinos) is line breeding just like their reptile friends. "Morphs" of azureus always make me laugh. Fine spot/no spot/sky blue I've seen for sale, and I've seen wanted ads for. These occur naturally in the population (along with large spotted that almost look like new rivers/katuri rivers from the same pair), breeding them together in an effort to get rid of the variation and only get fine spotted, thats line breeding like leopard geckos. Line breeding in many/most reptiles in the hobby is the norm, designer reptiles are in.

Over the years, I've seen more of this pop up. Its not the majority by any means, but its happening. I don't like it, but thats just me. I loved the albino tinc pictures because I thought it was fascinating to watch the black egg/tad go clear/white, becuase its an interesting pigment development question. Would I want one of my own? No, besides my "purist ideals" I just don't think they're pretty (remind me of hopping raw chicken). BUT SOME PEOPLE DO - beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If they just want a pretty thing in a tank, bloodlines and morph and species don't matter.

I also have to kinda chuckle at the frog tanks being our own "little piece of the rainforest" which is very much an ideal that doesn't mirror the real thing all that well. It fits the ideal of a pretty frog in a pretty tank, but if you've EVER had to sit back and wonder if a nicaraguan/costa rican green and black auratus is aposematic, your tank is overplanted. Most of these guys are leaf litter frogs, not moss frogs lol. My tanks might be ugly as hell, but they might also reflect their natural NICHE in the rainforest better.

Each to his own means and ideals.

And that folks, is my rant of the month. Back to sleep.
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Old 03-27-2005, 01:57 AM
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snip "BTW, there are no natural Oragutans in the world left for this very same reason."

Um, I hate to disagree but this is simply not true. There are a lot of hybrid orangs in captivity but there are also plenty of "pure" orangs in captivity (this is why Zoos have studbooks and PMPs) and lots of pure orangs in the wild. As for leopard geckos, the majority of the bloodlines are hybrids. There were several species that are morphologically very similar in the late 70s and through the 80s which were all bred together (mainly as most people didn't know any better) so that most if not all are hybrids.

At one of the recent Hamburg swaps there was a guy there selling hybrid dart frogs so I would have to say that no one will buy them has been tossed out the window. I would have to say that it would be irresponsible to produce them when a number of dart frog species are not established in the hobby as this runs the risk of further hybridization by animals that look like the nominate species.

There is a problem with the use of the word "morph" here as this is used in a different context with dart frogs to refer to naturally occuring genetically stable color patterns and/or size that comprises a statistically significant portion of the wild population at that location unlike the use of this word with other species where it refers to color variation that has been stabilized through inbreeding but is not a statistically significant part of the wild population.


As for the sterile part, I would not want to rely on it as amphibians have shown some unique adaptations in reproduction. Triploid, tetraploid, and octoploid chromosome numbers have all been shown to be fertile. If only a small number of the animals are fertile (which is very possible) then this is sufficient to crash a bloodline.

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Old 03-27-2005, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snmreptiles
I don't think you have to worry about people making the "Switch" to darts, as most people want something they can take out and hold, not look into a tank (As beautiful as they maybe) at an amazing frog.

My dad said it best "Different strokes for different folks"

MIKE
I'm talking about people who breed said animals for specific traits. If you want examples of real hybrids, you need look no further than king x corns, jungle carpet x diamond carpets, 'carpondros', and various monitor lizards such as argus x flavi or Phillipine x waters, all of which are up in the classifieds at kingsnake.com right now. Same type of animals. Or how about closer to the frog hobby with crossed pac-mans and the non-dart hybrids that appeared right here on Dendroboard not too long ago?

As the hobby becomes more and more popular, more people with less care for bloodlines and species will come in. Remember, not everyone that breeds darts posts or even comes to this board. I think a lot of people just want a pretty frog, and many hybrids are quite pretty, even if we don't think they're as pretty as their parent species. If people can make money by crossing a leuc with an azureus, what makes you think they'd care more about it than crossing a jungle carpet python with a green tree python? While I personally am not for advocating producing dart hybrids and certainly not for selling them, I'm pessimisstic on the question of if it will ever happen and think that denying that it will ever happen is like sticking your head in the sand.
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Old 03-29-2005, 06:21 AM
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<<I loved the albino tinc pictures because I thought it was fascinating to watch the black egg/tad go clear/white, becuase its an interesting pigment development question. Would I want one of my own? No, besides my "purist ideals" I just don't think they're pretty (remind me of hopping raw chicken). BUT SOME PEOPLE DO - beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If they just want a pretty thing in a tank, bloodlines and morph and species don't matter. >>

Hm, I didn't expect to be brought into this conversation as I was reading it, but I guess I am in it now. How did the albinos get compared to hybrids??? I just bought a pair of inferalanis tincs and let them breed so I could get more inferalanis tincs. And that's what I got! What harm is there in that? They are still pure inferalanis. I didn't pick out the parents specifically so I could get albinos and line breed them. This is something that just as easily could have happened in the wild since my pair are offspring of wildcaught parents. Maybe the pair would have only met to produce one clutch, but still. When the first albino froglet morphed, yes, I was really excited. I couldn't believe something this rare was actually happening in front of me. They definately shouldn't die for what they look like, to me that's the same as saying we should kill most of our tadpoles and froglets and only keep a certain percent, because that's what happens in the wild. I don't know of anyone who's willing to do that. :shock:

And....on a lighter note...."hopping raw chicken?????" I'm glad my babies can't read!
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