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Old 03-10-2005, 10:08 PM
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Default Panama Frog Farm Info

Hello,
I will be visiting Panama very soon and was wondering if anyone had contact info for the "farm" that is producing all the pumilio and auratus that are being imported. I do not want to obtain frogs from them, only visit. Leaving soon, so if anyone has a name and number, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Ron
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Old 03-10-2005, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: Panama Frog Farm Info

I have a feeling that the frog farm consists of 30 kids that go into the forest and collect the frogs for 5 cents per hr. It seems a bit odd that there are no juveniles or babies leaving the farm, only hundreds of adults.

I remember seeing the "facilities" on a post here, and I doubt that they would produce so many frogs

I remember the last shipment included several hundreds of auratus, all badly bruised up with lesions and open sores on their bodies.

I think their "facilities" can possibly produce some numbers, but I speculate that they built them just as a PR move to show anyone who questions the origins of the frogs that in fact they're raising them and not WC.

.... just my 2 speculatively pessimistic cents I'm very hopeful that you can prove me wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kikker
Hello,
I will be visiting Panama very soon and was wondering if anyone had contact info for the "farm" that is producing all the pumilio and auratus that are being imported. I do not want to obtain frogs from them, only visit. Leaving soon, so if anyone has a name and number, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks,
Ron
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Old 03-10-2005, 10:42 PM
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You might want to try Robb Melancon, as I believe he has some contact info.

Marty, I have to disagree. If they were to catch pumilio from the wild, the male/female ratio would be significantly skewed to males. As I understand it, many of the shipments of pumilio have come in with very even sex ratios. Just my thought.
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:27 PM
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I agree with Marty here. Besides, these frogs are plucked out of the wild alot easier by color than they are by sound. If you take the less-vibrantly colored Bruno morph into consideration, there actually IS a male-heavy load coming into the US.
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:39 PM
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i got 12 of the bastis lost 2 within 2 days......after that I am sure that out of the 3 orange and 7 red I have 1 orange Male and 4-5 red Males.
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:45 PM
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:47 PM
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I think one major method of catching these frogs is just setting out a bunch of fruit. The insects begin to propogate and the frogs swarm in to feast. I've seen a pic of like 30 auratus huddled around some orange-like fruit. If they did this they could just wait a little and go to town on the frogs that are innocently feasting. Just another option of how they could acquire these frogs. Obviously there are other people in other locations collecting the different morphs. Just a thought.
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Old 03-10-2005, 11:52 PM
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Maybe instead of a breeder you could visit the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute:

Quote:
The Smithsonian Tropical Research Institution (STRI) in Panama, the only bureau of the Smithsonian Institution based outside of the United States, is dedicated to understanding biological diversity.
http://www.stri.org/index.php

Seems they have a couple of folks working with darts.

Best,

Marcos
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Old 03-11-2005, 01:07 AM
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I've been on several insect collecting trips (few times in Costa Rica, Mexico, French Guyana, Brazil and Peru. Hopefully Borneo in November) and it was amazing what kids as well as adults would bring us for some candy or an old pair of shorts.

I didn't collect any frogs, but I can't see how that could be much different. People in poverty striken places, couldn't care less what happens to these animals as long as they can provide food on the table... Rules and morals in those places are completely out the window.

If you want a roasted macaw for lunch, they will provide it. (I myself had parot eggs, tapir, monkey and pekari to eat - and who knows what else)

I have also seen bullet holes in a cabin in a protected reserve in Brazil, where a poacher was killed for hunting monkeys for food and skins. Owner of the reserve simply killed him.

I'm not saying that all the people are savages there, but are definitely not as sensitive about nature and animals like we are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homer
You might want to try Robb Melancon, as I believe he has some contact info.

Marty, I have to disagree. If they were to catch pumilio from the wild, the male/female ratio would be significantly skewed to males. As I understand it, many of the shipments of pumilio have come in with very even sex ratios. Just my thought.
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Old 03-11-2005, 01:18 AM
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Old 03-11-2005, 06:53 AM
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Do any of you have proof that they're collecting the pumilio and auratus directly from the wild? I bet not. This subject was gone over before the first shipment arrived last year. People in South America and the US have worked hard to relax the regulations on exporting darts. People who's efforts could be ruined if people here start slinging around baseless accusations that the frogs were collected illegally when they have no proof. Would you want pumilio shipments cut off again? So unless you know for a fact that that the frogs were collected illegally and have evidence, don't insinuate. It's called libel.
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Old 03-11-2005, 08:08 AM
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I got 3 pumilios bastimentos and all are males waiting for 4 more next week i hope i get at least 1 female. They came pretty slim, I think they had few worms inside eating their food; I did some fast di-worming on them and now they are too fat :lol:

I also saw part of that big shipment of aruatus; and I tell you guys it was sad 90% of the frogs were damage, one of them was even missing a front leg :cry: I went to check on them 3 days later and the only one alive was the guy with no leg.
:cry:


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Old 03-11-2005, 10:13 AM
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Someone posted pictures of the frogfarms.

http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/vi...ight=frog+farm
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:37 PM
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its ridiculuous that we have to go through this again. This subject has been run into the ground.

The accusations that an importer got "shut down" and recently opened up again is very ignorant, and as mentioned before, is libel. I know one of the 2 major importers, and it has nothing to do with that. Panama simply didn't allow pumilio to be exported until it was proven that someone was farming them down there. Don't speculate on an open forum like this. Do that in your head, and in private conversations. I could speculate that dendroboard is really just a group of froggers trying to control the dart frog market by creating threads that hype up the frogs that they are selling. A frog mafia. Ignorant isn't it? (note to admins: just making a point)

Let's stick to facts.

1) There are several greenhouses setup for the sole purpose of breeding these frogs.

2) The exporter has provided locale data on the parent population.

3) Who said that only adults were being imported? I got several juveniles out of the last shipment.

4) It is necessary for the farms to do some WC collecting, but only to supply a parent population to their greenhouses. Do some of these get exported? Probably, but when they go in to collect pumilio for exportation, how can you really tell the WC from the Farm-raised?

5) Before these farms were allowed to export, they had to prove that they were raising and breeding at least 2 generations of the frogs.
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Old 03-11-2005, 12:49 PM
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Thanks rompida!
Doing a search on a topic often answers questions one may have.
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Old 03-11-2005, 01:58 PM
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Old 03-11-2005, 02:01 PM
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I'm just curious. Does anyone have a perspective on why so many auratus are being exported? Given that they breed so well in captivity, it seems curious. Are we looking at different/rare morphs here?

Bill
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Old 03-11-2005, 02:08 PM
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Well, let's put it this way... One assumes that CITES or some kind of environmental government official has looked over these farms and seen them in person. Or do you think they just said, "OK, there's some farms. We don't need to see them or check that they're not poaching frogs. We haven't allowed export of these frogs in years, so let's just allow them to maybe export wild frogs just for the heck of it." Remember also that they said farmS. Does anyone outside Panama know how many there are?
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Old 03-11-2005, 02:28 PM
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Old 03-11-2005, 03:44 PM
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Your facts don't really convince me about the excellent practices of these breeding farms.... Nor do I really care for that matter. I did get some pumilios myself and that's what counts to me.

I wasn't trying to spark up a debate or anything like that. I simply refuse to blindly believe and accept stories on how great the export of 100% farm raised frogs are. If that breeding farm was located in Japan, I'd have no problems believing it, but not when it's located in pumilio territory, but if you want to believe it... doesn't bother me... gullible people also have a place in this world and should be somewhat respected :lol:

Quote:
4) It is necessary for the farms to do some WC collecting, but only to supply a parent population to their greenhouses. Do some of these get exported? Probably, but when they go in to collect pumilio for exportation, how can you really tell the WC from the Farm-raised?
Your fact #4 (although contradictory in itself) leaves a loophole, which I believe is what is exploited (to what degree? only the farm owners know ) to obtain proper paperwork from the government as well as to supply frogs to the market and keep the operations running. They're simply doing what they have to do in order to fulfill the demand and make some money.

Sure they could be producing few frogs for every X number they sell, there really is no way of knowing unless you have inside information into the practices on those farms. I very much doubt that you would give up that information, knowing that by keeping it to yourself, you can make a decent coin.
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Old 03-11-2005, 04:44 PM
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While this little rumor fest is highly entertaining I thought maybe I would point out that the person who requested contact information is a very long time and respected frog conservationist from the Atlanta Bot. Gardens who has worked with NAIB and Smithsonian etc. I'm not about to attempt to list Ron's long list of credentials but just wanted to point out that this is not just some pleasure seeker wanting to see pretty frogs at a farm. With some help, Ron could help answer many of the things that are just being presumed here.
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Old 03-11-2005, 04:54 PM
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I am skeptical about the farms producing the numbers that are coming in the country, and the small numbers of certain morphs coming in, such as gold dusts and black and whites. They can produce hundreds of bastis, yet only a handful of black and whites? I find that hard to believe. As for rompida getting juveniles, I believe the farm does produce some pumilio, but not to the degree that they are being exported, which would explain the small number of juveniles coming in, as a frog breeder it is not logical to send off adults, which will breed and produce froglets, as many have witnessed shortly after receiving their frogs.
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Old 03-11-2005, 05:14 PM
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Just curious, what do Ron's credentials have to do with weather the frogs coming in are WC or FR ? This thread does not attempt to disrespect or discredit him in any way shape or form (at least it's not my intention).

It's just a little bit of deductive reasoning, not even for/against opinions regarding farming and exporting of WCs.

...we're just shooting some s$#% :wink: No one is ripping on anyone and no one is overly taking sides.

Sure everyone likes to have pumilios coming in... even if they're WCs and brought in as FR.

well...I'm out of this conversation, before someone makes me into a villain and I'll have to start defending myself ....or worse yet...before my farm raised pumilios will be confiscated :lol:


Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrock
While this little rumor fest is highly entertaining I thought maybe I would point out that the person who requested contact information is a very long time and respected frog conservationist from the Atlanta Bot. Gardens who has worked with NAIB and Smithsonian etc. I'm not about to attempt to list Ron's long list of credentials but just wanted to point out that this is not just some pleasure seeker wanting to see pretty frogs at a farm. With some help, Ron could help answer many of the things that are just being presumed here.
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Old 03-11-2005, 07:14 PM
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Old 03-11-2005, 09:00 PM
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Not to be rude or anything, but I think you have all strayed far from the topic, lol, perhaps a new thread is in order???
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Old 03-12-2005, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantellaprince20
Not to be rude or anything, but I think you have all strayed far from the topic, lol, perhaps a new thread is in order???
Yes, that was really the point of my purposely somewhat abbrasive post earlier. I just found it odd how a simple question from someone who may be able to visit the farm firsthand and report on what is really happening got burried in what appears to me mostly rumor, even if it is logically derived rumor. A separate thread - maybe like the one that ran for 4 frickin' pages on the same subject in November - might have saved Ron from having to wade through all of this to find his answer. I'm hoping that Robb quietly emailed him the contact info while all this deductive reasoning was taking place.

Sorry, this was another purposely somewhat abbrasive post. I must just be in a mood today.
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Old 03-12-2005, 04:54 AM
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Dont attack me for saying this ,, but if the prices of all the captive breed frogs I drool over daily. Were not as bloody expensive then these farms would not be needed for the purpose of exporting massive amounts of inexpensive frogs. I mean the farms are needed for research and study , but isnt the main goal here to help perserve these creatures with education and captive breeding. Im new to the breeding part , but its not rocket science to way out cost versus 100% profit eventually after several clutches are sold. If the native people of these lands where our frogs come from do not have a demand for these frogs , they wont catch them and then maybe these frogs can survive where there really meant to be. We can do alot more from this side of the globe then we think we can And is anyone gonna answer the original question of this thread , or is it toooo late :shock:
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Old 03-12-2005, 01:29 PM
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I answered the question, but in a pm to avoid the person from getting lots of emails about the farm.
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Old 03-12-2005, 02:18 PM
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Just to clarify: I have no business or personal relationship with the exporters in Panama. I have only a personal relationship with the importer who asked if I would post the pictures of the farm to satisfy some of the curiosity about where the frogs were coming from. I have contacted Ron and he knows how to go about getting the information he was looking for. Whether or not he got the information before he left, I don't know.

One last note on the farm raised debate. I think I have said this before but what is the purpose of proving the frogs are legitamate or not? Just to say "Ha, I told you so!". Unless you plan on going on a personal crusade to save the rainforest it doesn't really change anything. Both sides are speculation and guessing. Both sides have voiced their opinions ad nauseum. How about we just enjoy the frogs knowing that whether or not they are legitimate, a) the imports probably won't continue for long anyway and b) there are many other things that are happening that are much more of a threat to these frogs. If you want to get up in arms about rainforest conservation, get concerned about them cutting it down for cow pastures and tourism.
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Old 03-12-2005, 03:11 PM
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Ron, not sure if you're talking about me or not, but I'll reply, even though I was supposed to bail out on this already. In overly simplified terms

IMO, I really don't care where the frogs are coming from as long as they're coming. The only thing that was bugging me is that some people will blindly believe whatever they're told. No offense to you or the frog farms, afterall without those farms we wouldn't be able to get the frogs. If the farms are a smoke screen for exporting the frogs, that's fine with me!

As for the loopholes, if they exist, they're always going to be exploited ... I have no problems with that. My intent was to point out that if I have 2 tanks and I'm producing 50 adult pumilios per week.... blah, blah, blah

as for the rainforest conservation, very true.... buy an acre, save the forest Makes no difference if we protect species in the forest and then burn their habitatit down the road.

hm... maybe this thread should be removed (or cleaned up) and this topic should remain as a hobby taboo... too be honest, I do regret a little opening my big mouth....I'd hate to see importing of frogs banned, if this talk would spark some inquisitive interest by whoever with authority, thinking that they can possibly expose something... it would suck to suffer another frog drought, because of idle talk here.... I'm fine with removing this thread, for the good of the hobby.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rmelancon
Just to clarify: I have no business or personal relationship with the exporters in Panama. I have only a personal relationship with the importer who asked if I would post the pictures of the farm to satisfy some of the curiosity about where the frogs were coming from. I have contacted Ron and he knows how to go about getting the information he was looking for. Whether or not he got the information before he left, I don't know.

One last note on the farm raised debate. I think I have said this before but what is the purpose of proving the frogs are legitamate or not? Just to say "Ha, I told you so!". Unless you plan on going on a personal crusade to save the rainforest it doesn't really change anything. Both sides are speculation and guessing. Both sides have voiced their opinions ad nauseum. How about we just enjoy the frogs knowing that whether or not they are legitimate, a) the imports probably won't continue for long anyway and b) there are many other things that are happening that are much more of a threat to these frogs. If you want to get up in arms about rainforest conservation, get concerned about them cutting it down for cow pastures and tourism.
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Old 03-12-2005, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty
Ron, not sure if you're talking about me or not, but I'll reply, even though I was supposed to bail out on this already. In overly simplified terms
.........
hm... maybe this thread should be removed (or cleaned up) and this topic should remain as a hobby taboo... too be honest, I do regret a little opening my big mouth....I'd hate to see importing of frogs banned, if this talk would spark some inquisitive interest by whoever with authority, thinking that they can possibly expose something... it would suck to suffer another frog drought, because of idle talk here.... I'm fine with removing this thread, for the good of the hobby.
Marty, not sure if you meant Ron or Robb, but I'm Robb. I wasn't speaking specifically to anyone more to the whole community. The last part of your quote is a very important point but unfortunately it is probably too late. And not because of any one person.
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