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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2009, 06:47 AM
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Default So, you want a reason to not mix species?

So tonight I was in the living room watching television and I hear a bunch of noise coming from my bedroom (aka: frog room). Figured I'd go check out what's going on. Turns out I now have two verified male leucomelas. They decided to have a shouting match during my Family Guy time. Fortunately they were too concerned with each other to care when I walked in, opened the cage and started taking pictures.

The way I see it, if _the_ beginner frog (let's admit it, anytime someone asks for the best beginner frog at least half the people say "leucs!") that is fairly non-territorial, relatively easy to take care of and keep alive can express aggression toward its fellow brothern, what do you think could happen when introducing more than one species to a small enclosure?

As a side note, the tank has plenty of hiding places (I count eight film canisters mounted in the Great Stuff, my leucs utilize them all, not to mention mini caves and plenty of visual barriers), is well planted, and has plenty of horizontal and vertical space.

Looks like I'm going to be getting a bigger tank
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:59 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Wrestling isn't that uncommon. I sometimes see it among pairs that have been together for years, but something (usually food) just sets them off for a few minutes.
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Old 05-14-2009, 12:36 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

In my experience female leucs will even drown eachother. These are certainly not non-territorial frogs!
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Old 05-14-2009, 01:23 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

That is a very irresponsible post. This information is not based on any facts or experience and is only being posted to further stir the pot on the topic of mixing species. It is post like this that hurt this hobby. Posting inaccurate data based on your belief instead of actual experience with the subject.

You may be of the opinion that mixed tanks are difficult but that is simply not the case(this is based on almost 10 years keeping mixed tanks and assisting others with the setup and maintanence of their mixed tanks). What you have shown is that aggression can happen in a single species tank and happens more then one would think because almost every tank is setup with unsexed juveniles. The wrestling behavior you witnessed is a normal(as stated by the previos two posters) function of how frogs interact to establish a hierachy within a group. It is when this aggression becomes excessive that it needs to be addressed.

Also, it is not recommended to setup a mixed species tank or keep a group of leuc's in a small enclosure, as you stated.

Last edited by Jellyman; 05-14-2009 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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That is the most irresponsible post I have read to date on this forum. You may be of the opinion that mixed tanks are difficult but that is simply not the case.
Wow, Jell, the most irresponsible post? A little hyperbole, don't you think?

It's a well recognized fact that you keep a multi-species tank, and I pass no judgment on you because it's clear that you are observant and quick to make adjustments if territorial disputes and aggression become problematic to the health of the frogs.

However, proselytizing about the merits of mixing is another thing entirely. I consider mixing to be an advanced subject that shouldn't be approached by inexperienced novice keepers because there are many variables that could contribute to potentially devastating failure.

Your experiences should be shared so that others can read about them, research on their own and come to their own decisions and conclusions.

Respectfully,
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:14 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by flyangler18 View Post
Wow, Jell, the most irresponsible post? A little hyperbole, don't you think?

It's a well recognized fact that you keep a multi-species tank, and I pass no judgment on you because it's clear that you are observant and quick to make adjustments if territorial disputes and aggression become problematic to the health of the frogs.

However, proselytizing about the merits of mixing is another thing entirely. I consider mixing to be an advanced subject that shouldn't be approached by inexperienced novice keepers because there are many variables that could contribute to potentially devastating failure.

Your experiences should be shared so that others can read about them, research on their own and come to their own decisions and conclusions.

Respectfully,
Jason
I agree 100% that it is not something that should be tackled by a beginner and one should aquire knowledge and experience before attempting to do so. But it is irresponsible for members to continue to try and misinform other members with inaccurate information based on their own beliefs and NO experience. That is irresponsible and a detriment to the advancement of this hobby.

Also, I am not proselytizing. I am not trying to change anyone's mind. That is a decision each and everyone should have the opportunity to do so on their terms based on the full set of accurate and avaialable information.

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Old 05-14-2009, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I believe that Smack is a great guy and has done a lot to progress the hobby of darts in Utah and surrounding area. If we are learning we should all do it together instead of acting like another person's ideas or opinions are worth no merits or second thoughts. Bottom line lets help eachother not be so quick to pass judgement. . .
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:40 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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But it is irresponsible for members to continue to try and misinform other members with inaccurate information based on their own beliefs and NO experience. That is irresponsible and a detriment to the advancement of this hobby.
I fail to see any 'irresponsibility' in the case of the OP; it is a logical progression that any territorial disputes observed in a single species enclosure could well be magnified in a mixed species enclosure, particularly those with similar body shape (that Ed has referenced previously).

If I've misinterpreted the intent of the OP, please correct me.
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Old 05-14-2009, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by flyangler18 View Post
I fail to see any 'irresponsibility' in the case of the OP; it is a logical progression that any territorial disputes observed in a single species enclosure could well be magnified in a mixed species enclosure, particularly those with similar body shape (that Ed has referenced previously).

If I've misinterpreted the intent of the OP, please correct me.
The OP is making assumptions that just because it happened with his leuc's it will be magnified in a mixed species tank. This is "simlpy" not true. The OP also stated "what do you think could happen when introducing more than one species to a small enclosure?" For starters you should not put a group of leucs in a small enclosure no more then you should put a small group of mixed frogs in a small enclosure. I would bet if you put a small group of Dendroboard members in an elevator that would not go over well either It is irresponsible to offer advice based on speculation with no experience to back up your claims.
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Old 05-14-2009, 03:09 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Whether or not there is aggression in mixed species tanks is a competely seperate issue from intra-species aggression. It's sort of like saying, "all of the astronauts that have visited the moon have been white American men, so women and non-white, non-American persons would be unable to survive on the moon". Your observed behaviour does not logically transfer to your suggestion that mixed species tanks would only increase aggression.
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Old 05-14-2009, 05:58 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

It is obvious that those who advocate mixed morph or mixed species tanks seem to be on the defensive, and are reading Smack's posting far too literally. While a multi-species enclosure does not guarantee territorial aggression, I still think it reasonable to approach it as probable, particularly amongst specimens of a similar body shape as a visual marker for species recognition (I'll also need to find the citation that Ed has previously provided on this topic.)

On the question of 'small enclosure', this has been discussed many times. I submit that truly adequately sized enclosures don't exist in the hobby. I would love to construct an enclosure large enough to sustain a breeding group of species X where the entire life cycle of the frog can be carried out - no pulling of eggs or tads. Rich Frye has written earlier (and I'll have to find the post in question) about a viv the size of a modern shower for a pair of pums, and Brent Brock's blue jeans viv is quite large as well, gargantuan even compared to the 'typical' enclosure in the hobby.

Ed has written extensively on the topic of available space when designing an enclosure - this is especially important with multispecies enclosures with respect to visual barriers and refugia.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
I would bet if you put a small group of Dendroboard members in an elevator that would not go over well either
Wrongo...

Mike K, myself and Julio were in a elevator and a small Baltimore hotel room and there was no aggression noted. We even ate together. Julio and I even allowed Mike to eat without bullying him or taking his food.

Mike didn't seem to display any signs of stress and was observed to return to the breakfast buffet for a second helping of eggs!

Now if Kiera Knightley were to be suddenly introduced into the hotel room, I'm fairly certain that I would have pushed both Mike and Julio out of the room and /or stood on their heads until they passed out and then dragged them outside.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:23 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with telling a new hobbyist that they can't mix species. Would you tell a young child that smoking cigarettes/using the stove/using sharp knives/driving a car/drinking alcohol is ok? I mean of course it's ok for an adult, but the child doesn't understand why it's ok for adults and not for them. Which is why so many people use the "zero tolerance" parenting technique in order to avoid misunderstandings with their children. Once the children grow older they can begin to take on some of these activities, such as, using knives and cooking on the stove... New hobbyists (to any hobby) have to take this approach. (Yes I know there are people who jump into anything and everything head first and no harm comes of it, but those are "exceptions to the rule".) In the case of the dart frog hobby I just don't see the harm in drilling the "no mixed species" idea into their head so that one day when they have a room full of mysteriosus, pumilio, histrionicus, quinqs, etc, it can dawn on them that the only thing they haven't tried is a mixed species tank. My personal feeling, is that the patience and responsibility you have to exercise to arrive at that moment, are nearly as rewarding as finally creating a successful multi-species enclosure with animals whose husbandry and behavior you are intimately knowledgeable of.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackoftheGods View Post
So tonight I was in the living room watching television and I hear a bunch of noise coming from my bedroom (aka: frog room). Figured I'd go check out what's going on. Turns out I now have two verified male leucomelas. They decided to have a shouting match during my Family Guy time. Fortunately they were too concerned with each other to care when I walked in, opened the cage and started taking pictures.

The way I see it, if _the_ beginner frog (let's admit it, anytime someone asks for the best beginner frog at least half the people say "leucs!") that is fairly non-territorial, relatively easy to take care of and keep alive can express aggression toward its fellow brothern, what do you think could happen when introducing more than one species to a small enclosure?
This has absolutely nothing to do with mixing. If you have two same sex conspecifics, they may fight. This isn't any more an issue with mixing than with same species, as your post proves.

honestly, your post is a counterpoint to one of the arguments against mixing.
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Old 05-14-2009, 06:39 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by flyangler18 View Post
it is a logical progression that any territorial disputes observed in a single species enclosure could well be magnified in a mixed species enclosure, particularly those with similar body shape (that Ed has referenced previously).
No, it is not.


If anything, there should be slightly less aggression between two males of similar species than between two males of the same species. Yes, there will still be aggression, but theres no reason that it would be MORE than two same species same sex animals.


(unless, of course, rather than 4 leucs in a tank, you're talking 4 leucs and 2 tincs, in which case, increased aggression is more caused by increased population density than any mixing concerns)
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:23 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Marinarawr View Post
I think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with telling a new hobbyist that they can't mix species. Would you tell a young child that smoking cigarettes/using the stove/using sharp knives/driving a car/drinking alcohol is ok? I mean of course it's ok for an adult, but the child doesn't understand why it's ok for adults and not for them. Which is why so many people use the "zero tolerance" parenting technique in order to avoid misunderstandings with their children. Once the children grow older they can begin to take on some of these activities, such as, using knives and cooking on the stove... New hobbyists (to any hobby) have to take this approach. (Yes I know there are people who jump into anything and everything head first and no harm comes of it, but those are "exceptions to the rule".) In the case of the dart frog hobby I just don't see the harm in drilling the "no mixed species" idea into their head so that one day when they have a room full of mysteriosus, pumilio, histrionicus, quinqs, etc, it can dawn on them that the only thing they haven't tried is a mixed species tank. My personal feeling, is that the patience and responsibility you have to exercise to arrive at that moment, are nearly as rewarding as finally creating a successful multi-species enclosure with animals whose husbandry and behavior you are intimately knowledgeable of.
All of the examples you mention are due to the lack of mental capabilities or physical limitiations of a child. A new member to the dart frog community typically does not lack either and is capable of gathering and processing the information needed to setup a mixed species tanks. It is the omition of information or the intentional issuance of incorrect information that will cause a poorly formulated decision.
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:28 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by flyangler18 View Post
It is obvious that those who advocate mixed morph or mixed species tanks seem to be on the defensive, and are reading Smack's posting far too literally. While a multi-species enclosure does not guarantee territorial aggression, I still think it reasonable to approach it as probable, particularly amongst specimens of a similar body shape as a visual marker for species recognition (I'll also need to find the citation that Ed has previously provided on this topic.)

On the question of 'small enclosure', this has been discussed many times. I submit that truly adequately sized enclosures don't exist in the hobby. I would love to construct an enclosure large enough to sustain a breeding group of species X where the entire life cycle of the frog can be carried out - no pulling of eggs or tads. Rich Frye has written earlier (and I'll have to find the post in question) about a viv the size of a modern shower for a pair of pums, and Brent Brock's blue jeans viv is quite large as well, gargantuan even compared to the 'typical' enclosure in the hobby.

Ed has written extensively on the topic of available space when designing an enclosure - this is especially important with multispecies enclosures with respect to visual barriers and refugia.

Noone is on the defensive due to the difference of opinion. If the other side did not exist then there would be no boundries and more harm then good would come from the husbandry habits of experimental frog keeping. The defensive ensues when information is purposely omitted, discredited by someone who lacks experience, or more often offers inaccurate information.
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:43 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

This arguement is such a waste of bandwith as usual .
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Old 05-14-2009, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Wrongo...

Mike K, myself and Julio were in a elevator and a small Baltimore hotel room and there was no aggression noted. We even ate together. Julio and I even allowed Mike to eat without bullying him or taking his food.

Mike didn't seem to display any signs of stress and was observed to return to the breakfast buffet for a second helping of eggs!

Now if Kiera Knightley were to be suddenly introduced into the hotel room, I'm fairly certain that I would have pushed both Mike and Julio out of the room and /or stood on their heads until they passed out and then dragged them outside.
This is hilarious!
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:15 PM
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This is hilarious!
Thank you for appreciating it.....I giggled while typing it, to be honest.

BTW....Mike K is none other than our own Corpus Callosum, for those of you who don't already know.

back to the topic.....I just caught two of my male Leucs fighting a few minutes ago. "Combating" is a natural breeding issue with many herps and animals in general.

The thing that we need to remember is that more often than not, the people inquiring about mixing are:

1. New to dart frogs
2. Young....like 14-16 yrs old.

These are two types of hobbyists that should not even be thinking about mixed species vivariums.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:17 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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No, it is not.


If anything, there should be slightly less aggression between two males of similar species than between two males of the same species. Yes, there will still be aggression, but theres no reason that it would be MORE than two same species same sex animals. )
This cannot be used as a broad based rule with species that are strongly territorial as the competition for niches and resources can be just as intense between the species as within a species. A reputable source reported about a male O. pumilio repeatedly attaching a D. tinctorius in an attempt to drive it from the tank... this is an example of different species same behaviors, same shape.. (for a good source of peer reviewed data look at that for plethodontid salamanders, there is even direct competition between plethodontids and amybstomids for resources and if the ambystomid is too small to eat the plethodontid, it will bite at the nares in an attempt to damage them inhibiting not only the plethodontid's ability to not only feed but court and reproduce).
When discussing this keep in mind, one of the background drives is on whether or not the species will compete for space with offspring.. there is an evolutionary pressure to discourage competition by species with the same niche requirements (one of the driving forces for speciation is niche specialization...)

This is one of the reasons why in general density within a species enclosure doesn't directly translate to multispecies enclosures..as competition between species with similar body shapes and niche requirements can actually be more intense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Conley View Post
(unless, of course, rather than 4 leucs in a tank, you're talking 4 leucs and 2 tincs, in which case, increased aggression is more caused by increased population density than any mixing concerns)
If one uses a species that doesn't have the same shape and/or behaviors then the animal is going to be ignored as it will be "viewed" as being a non-competitor for the same resources. This is why in multispecies enclosures, there isn't a problem with a small hylid for example.....

Unless you are really have a lot of experience and design ability I do not suggest housing different dendrobatids together...

Ed
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:18 PM
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This is hilarious!

I agree...

Ed
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post

The thing that we need to remember is that more often than not, the people inquiring about mixing are:

1. New to dart frogs
2. Young....like 14-16 yrs old.

These are two types of hobbyists that should not even be thinking about mixed species vivariums.

There is no basis for this reference. There are members of all ages asking about mixing species and out of all the people I have ever helped setup and maintain a tank I can honestly say that none of them were under 20 years of age. This is the kind of misleading comments that is associated with mixing species.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by flyangler18 View Post
I

On the question of 'small enclosure', this has been discussed many times. I submit that truly adequately sized enclosures don't exist in the hobby. I would love to construct an enclosure large enough to sustain a breeding group of species X where the entire life cycle of the frog can be carried out - no pulling of eggs or tads .

I think this would be possible with R. ventrimaculatus.. I have seen enclosures where the density was surprisingly high when tadpoles were allowed to remain in the enclosure. One should also keep in mind that this species also has social parasitism behaviors that could only really evolve in high population densities. Based on on those behaviors and the anecdotal observations, a decent sized tank (say a 40 breeder) properly set-up could probably accomplish this task... the main thing would be the food input as this could artificially affect the density..

Ed
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:24 PM
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There is no basis for this reference. There are members of all ages asking about mixing species and out of all the people I have ever helped setup and maintain a tank I can honestly say that none of them were under 20 years of age. This is the kind of misleading comments that is associated with mixing species.
Ok, Jel....that was just my personal observation from reading thousands of posts for over three years.

Yeah...you're right
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:29 PM
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Ok, Jel....that was just my personal observation from reading thousands of posts for over three years.

Yeah...you're right
I am right. You have absolutely no way of knowing how old the poster/member is. You are making this general misinformed reference to suport your belief.

How many mixed tanks have you had?

How many people have you helped setup and maintain a mixed enclosure?

One would think after reading "thousands of posts" from members interested in mixed species tanks that there might actually be people out there interested???
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I too would like to see the elevator battle of Phil, Julio and I when Kiera Knightley is thrown into the mix. I would probably let her know you guys have girlfriends and that I am the most available package of the bunch. But if that didn't work then let the fighting begin.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:42 PM
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I am right. You have absolutely no way of knowing how old the poster/member is. You are making this general misinformed reference to suport your belief.

How many mixed tanks have you had?

How many people have you helped setup and maintain a mixed enclosure?

One would think after reading "thousands of posts" from members interested in mixed species tanks that there might actually be people out there interested???
If the two of you are done poking each other in the eye with a sharp stick..

There is a difference between successful and maintained...

Ed
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post

The thing that we need to remember is that more often than not, the people inquiring about mixing are:

1. New to dart frogs
2. Young....like 14-16 yrs old.

These are two types of hobbyists that should not even be thinking about mixed species vivariums.
And that's completely fine, we should just try to keep discussions to actual facts, and relevant details. The original post was almost all spin, and very little substance (with regards to mixing), and that's not helpful, especially not to people who don't already understand both sides of the argument.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
This cannot be used as a broad based rule with species that are strongly territorial as the competition for niches and resources can be just as intense between the species as within a species. A reputable source reported about a male O. pumilio repeatedly attaching a D. tinctorius in an attempt to drive it from the tank... this is an example of different species same behaviors, same shape.. d
Ed, I'm not saying that a male XXX won't attack a male YYY. I'm saying a male XXX generally wont attack a male YYY any more than he'd attack another male XXX.

Interspecies aggression most certainly can happen, but so can intraspecies aggression. The case above, from an aggression standpoint, most likely would have had the same resolution if the 2nd frog was another male O.pumilio, as it did with the tinc.

In this specific case, we're talking about two species that wont tolerate other same species pairs, so its not a surprise they won't tolerate off-species (but similar looking) pairs.

Last edited by Rich Conley; 05-14-2009 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 05-14-2009, 08:55 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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If the two of you are done poking each other in the eye with a sharp stick..

There is a difference between successful and maintained...

Ed

A well maintained tank is more likely to be successful then a poorly maintained tank..
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:20 PM
Ed Ed is offline
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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A well maintained tank is more likely to be successful then a poorly maintained tank..
Okay, it seems like its time to define out some terms here... Since you want to argue this point...

Please define well maintained...

Please define poorly maintained....

Please define Successful.....
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:21 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

oh boy oh boy oh boy.. another one of these topics and id like to say im am truely sorry for chimming in as late as i am.. but after reading page after page of nonesence and ppl truely just wanting cold hard facts is just... sad..
Phill was simply making a statement and personal observation is truely a dendroboard fact where 9 out of 10 of the ppl asking about mixing species is normally younger froggers or ppl very new to the trade, hence is why their asking.. and not telling.
with any species of animal aside from frogs there is always going to be agression between species.. and i have been keeping reptiles for most of my life been to many shows done alot of traveling and i have kept different snakes together, large monitor lizards ect.. and with them i have seen no different agression between say a Black throat monitor and a savannah monitor housed together then i have with keeping 2 black throats together. when its feeding time the competition starts.
and honestly every one keeps saying over and over mixing is for the pro's the ppl with expierence this and that.. come on guys.. we all started somewhere and we have all been like "hmm i wonder what would happen if i put my Azureus and my Leuc together" ect.. or just different types of tincs and pums and vents and such.. i hear mixing lamasi and vents is popular..
all im saying is there isnt really a right or wrong way to do it.. for ppl just starting out its trial and error thats truely how the more expierenced guys got their answers. re search trial and error.

but anyway what is everyones dilema with this topic? who cares? whats the point? you truely think by having debate after debate one side will just lay down and surrender to the other? LMAO the soga continues!
-Derek
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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A well maintained tank is more likely to be successful then a poorly maintained tank..
....My brain hurtz



Jel....most poster's age is usually revealed on here, after awhile....

for instance, we know Jelly Shrimp is 14.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:27 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Okay, it seems like its time to define out some terms here... Since you want to argue this point...

Please define well maintained...

Please define poorly maintained....

Please define Successful.....
I agree. It comes down to the individuals definition.

Here would be mine:
well maintained: adequate size, proper substrate, well planted but not overgrown, well drained, proper humidity

poorly maintained: to small for number/type of frogs, wrong substrate, overgrown, soaked substrate, low humidity

Succesfull: all qualities from well maintained, plump frogs, no excessive aggression
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:31 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by DCreptiles View Post
oh boy oh boy oh boy.. another one of these topics and id like to say im am truely sorry for chimming in as late as i am.. but after reading page after page of nonesence and ppl truely just wanting cold hard facts is just... sad..
Phill was simply making a statement and personal observation is truely a dendroboard fact where 9 out of 10 of the ppl asking about mixing species is normally younger froggers or ppl very new to the trade, hence is why their asking.. and not telling.
with any species of animal aside from frogs there is always going to be agression between species.. and i have been keeping reptiles for most of my life been to many shows done alot of traveling and i have kept different snakes together, large monitor lizards ect.. and with them i have seen no different agression between say a Black throat monitor and a savannah monitor housed together then i have with keeping 2 black throats together. when its feeding time the competition starts.
and honestly every one keeps saying over and over mixing is for the pro's the ppl with expierence this and that.. come on guys.. we all started somewhere and we have all been like "hmm i wonder what would happen if i put my Azureus and my Leuc together" ect.. or just different types of tincs and pums and vents and such.. i hear mixing lamasi and vents is popular..
all im saying is there isnt really a right or wrong way to do it.. for ppl just starting out its trial and error thats truely how the more expierenced guys got their answers. re search trial and error.

but anyway what is everyones dilema with this topic? who cares? whats the point? you truely think by having debate after debate one side will just lay down and surrender to the other? LMAO the soga continues!
-Derek
I'm simply tired of the same people who have no experience on the subject trying to tell everyone they know what is best and not giving any credit to those that actually have experience(trial and error if the case may be).
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I try not to get involved in these discussions. I have been into this hobby for only a short while and can be considered a noob at this point. I will only speak from my own personal experience.
Well.... Myself and two friends got into this hobby just last year.
I have a single species enclosure, a group of four Leucs. All seem healthy.
Friend #1 got 2 Azueres 2 G&B auratus 1 Luec and 1 Cobalt. He has lost 3 of his frogs since.
Friend #2 got 1 Azueres and 1 Leuc. She lost her Leuc. (competition for food)
There are many reasons why I've had success and they have not. I know for a fact that I did much more research than they did. I went with a single species enclosure because of the research I did. I know some of the other PDF boards deal with the same mixing questions as here and almost all mixing threads I've read were started by people with almost no experience.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Ed, I'm not saying that a male XXX won't attack a male YYY. I'm saying a male XXX generally wont attack a male YYY any more than he'd attack another male XXX.
I don't think that this supported in the literature (if you for example use a group in which territoriality has been well studied like caudates) and may be even less supported when you add in kinship effects that are probably also occuring given than many of the kept groups (like several leucomelas in a tank) of dendrobatids are related..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Conley View Post
Interspecies aggression most certainly can happen, but so can intraspecies aggression. The case above, from an aggression standpoint, most likely would have had the same resolution if the 2nd frog was another male O.pumilio, as it did with the tinc.
I'm not sure you can say that as one of the confounding issue are submission displays and behaviors which are different between species. Within the species these actions can result in a decrease or stopping of the aggression which would allow the frog to escape to shelter or leave the area. Between species, these are usually different so the frog cannot signal and get the aggression to stop... given these sort of issues, aggression between different species can be greater than that within a species as the methods which can call a halt to the agression are missing between species. (for a review I suggest those interested check out Hödl, W.; Amezquita, A. (2001). Visual signaling in anuran amphibians. In: Anuran communication, (M.J. Ryan, ed.). Smithsonian lust. Press, Washington. Pp. 121-141.)

Ed

Last edited by Ed; 05-14-2009 at 09:38 PM. Reason: clairity
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:45 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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I agree. It comes down to the individuals definition.
As with anything else that involved animal welfare.. the individual's definition is not necessarily the accepted standard as the welfare of the animal is what needs to be considered optimal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
well maintained: adequate size, proper substrate, well planted but not overgrown, well drained, proper humidity
Define adequate size and on what standard and proof that the size is adequate?
Define proper substrate and on what standard and proof that the substrate is "proper".
Define well planted and define not overgrown.
Define proper humidity and on what standard and proof. Does the proper humidity apply to all species that could be housed in the enclosure?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
poorly maintained: to small for number/type of frogs, wrong substrate, overgrown, soaked substrate, low humidity
As above, define all of these vague terms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
Succesfull: all qualities from well maintained, plump frogs, no excessive aggression
Define "plump" most of the frogs in enclosures are obese when compared to the wild counterparts. How do you determine if your plump is obese. Obesity could very be a sign of poor husbandry.

Define excessive aggression and how you reached that result.

Ed
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adven2er View Post
I try not to get involved in these discussions. I have been into this hobby for only a short while and can be considered a noob at this point. I will only speak from my own personal experience.
Well.... Myself and two friends got into this hobby just last year.
I have a single species enclosure, a group of four Leucs. All seem healthy.
Friend #1 got 2 Azueres 2 G&B auratus 1 Luec and 1 Cobalt. He has lost 3 of his frogs since.
Friend #2 got 1 Azueres and 1 Leuc. She lost her Leuc. (competition for food)
There are many reasons why I've had success and they have not. I know for a fact that I did much more research than they did. I went with a single species enclosure because of the research I did. I know some of the other PDF boards deal with the same mixing questions as here and almost all mixing threads I've read were started by people with almost no experience.
There are alot of questions here.
What size setups did they have?
How well were they designed?
Where did the plants come from?(possible contamination or fertilizer?
Were backup tanks ready in case frogs needed to be seperated?
How often and how much was being fed?
Were did they get the frogs?
Were the frogs in good health prior to be introduced?
What was the umidity levels?
Was there proper drainage?


If there was an atmosphere of open communication here all these questions could have been asked and the information could have been obtained. The answers to these questions would have greatly increased the chances of a successful setup.
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