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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2009, 07:35 PM
Ed Ed is offline
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Rich,

You are refuting all our examples and cites....

Ca we get you on record as to exactly why you support mixed species vivariums?

and

Do you own any? How many years experience do you have with them?
I don't think Rich is defending Multispecies enclosures per se (or that is how I have read the intent behind his posts) but instead is questioning what is potentially an observation that may or may not have any real value when expanded out to multispecies enclosures.

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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2009, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Wow, this topic has certainly gained some speed and has snowballed into quite a debate about the merits/demerits of mixed-species tanks.

Now, to say that I am an expert on keeping dart frogs would be a stretch. I would consider myself a novice at best. I have two auratus that are almost a year old, and I am happy to say that they are doing great. Over the last year I have had numerous questions that I have needed help answering, and this forum has been a tremendous help to me. Those who post on this forum must understand the great importance of the knowledge they are sharing to individuals like myself.

That being said, I believe that this forum is a great place for opinions to be shared, and for those opinions to be questioned or challenged is a great thing.

But, as hobbyists in a field that most certainly has scientific roots, I believe it is irresponsible to make statements that are not based on scientific tests, in which hypotheses were actually tested, and pass them off as evidence for unrelated circumstances.

If two male leucs are observed to be showing territorial aggression toward each other, the only logical assumption that can be made is that male leucs are territorial. Now, one could hypothesize that if intra-species aggression is observed, then inter-species aggression may also be an issue in mixed species tanks. But, that would only be an opinion. Certainly there are those on this forum who have tested this hypothesis, with differing results. But the OP seems to have not tested this hypothesis, and therefore, has started a thread about the demerits of mixed-species tanks that is based on assumption and opinion, not personal observation of mixed-species interaction.

Jelly was simply bringing up the point that it was an irresponsible post because it made assumptions without employing the scientific method. Jelly, as responsiblity dictates, stated his experience with mixed-species tanks. Certainly others that have mixed-species experience have both congruent and conflicting results with Jelly. Theses are the only people who should be making statements about the merits/demerits of mixed-species tanks.

As a beginner in this hobby, I, and others like me, need answers to our questions that are based on fact, not opinion. While postulations are certainly valuable for starting conversation and debate, they should not be passed off as anything other than opinion, until they are tested and evidence has been obtained to support or refute them.

I have never tried a mixed-species tank. If I were to ever try one, my decision to do so would be greatly influenced by information I could obtain from this forum. Just like any decision I would make regarding my frogs, I would base my decisions on my level of experience, and my ability to understand the risks I may or may not be taking. I would hope others would employ the same responsibility regarding their frogs.

Thank you for considering my opinion on this matter
Chris
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2009, 07:59 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Fantastic post, Chris. I think it perfectly sums up the discussion thus far.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:08 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by afterdark View Post
Fantastic post, Chris. I think it perfectly sums up the discussion thus far.

I agree and I am leaving it at that.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:11 PM
 
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Wrongo...

Mike K, myself and Julio were in a elevator and a small Baltimore hotel room and there was no aggression noted. We even ate together. Julio and I even allowed Mike to eat without bullying him or taking his food.

Mike didn't seem to display any signs of stress and was observed to return to the breakfast buffet for a second helping of eggs!

Now if Kiera Knightley were to be suddenly introduced into the hotel room, I'm fairly certain that I would have pushed both Mike and Julio out of the room and /or stood on their heads until they passed out and then dragged them outside.
Dude, that is hilarious! Good job!!!!!!!
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Uncaonce View Post
Dude, that is hilarious! Good job!!!!!!!
Yeah....but....It seem's even I can make a rookie mistake....

It was brought to my attention that Mike may have been under some stress with resource competition all along.....he ate the entire plate of eggs and then proceeded to attempt to eat many more (buffet), possibly to ensure than Julio and I could not get to them.

So you see...resource competition doesn't allways manifest itself with violence. Sometimes it can be..... sneaky.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2009, 08:34 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by imitator83 View Post
This may have been discussed, but after a while, this thread just seemed to blend together like one big whiney nightmare, so if it has been discussed, then I'm sorry. I was always under the impression that the biggest argument against mixed tanks was the likelihood that the two species would breed together and create a hybrid, and that some genius could then take these hybrid offspring and sell them off to newbies in the hobby as "a cool new morph". Many of the hybrids I have seen are kinda cool looking, imo, but the possibilities that this scenerio could happen seems pretty feesible, so I have stayed away from mixing species myself and people who do mix species. Even if you are responsible and would not do this, that would mean you would have to kill the eggs, tads and froglets created by the two species, and since I don't enjoy killing frogs, I stay away from mixing species. Just my thoughts...

...I wish I had a job where I the time to sit around and write essay-length responses to every differing opinion on a 6 page thread. It would be nice.....I didn't get to sit down at work tonight...
Wow, thank you, Scott, for pointing that out. That seems the only valid argument I ever heard against mixed species tanks (assuming the species require the same conditions). All these other arguments seem really to be arguments against overcrowding. But given the same number of frogs, I simply can't fathom how it would be more stressful to the frogs to have the frogs be different species. Perhaps some worry about racial tensions between the species?
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:50 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I made this comment in the thread with the pics of jellymans viv and will make it again since it has not been directly brought up. For me and for the success of any species for that matter is the ability to reproduce and keep the genes moving to another generation. If that is not happening I feel its not a success. Jellyman mentioned that he's never had offspring in his viv in the other thread and that alone tells me its unsuccessfull.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:23 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I have to agree with Tim, while reading this excellent debate I tried to decide what successful meant. I believe that with no offspring being produced by viable pairs that the experiment has failed. Surviving and thriving are two different things. Phil, you make awesome points even when you mean to be funny, how can I possibly know if one species is misinterpreting signals from another and being subdued? Sneaky or passive aggressive behavior is certainly harmful and I would never know it is going on. I would like to thank everyone on both sides of this, I am learning a lot from this discussion.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:36 PM
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Smile Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
I agree and I am leaving it at that.

Your not getting off that easy, Phil asked you for evidence supporting your claim that your mixed frogs are thriving, healthy frogs. If you are truly some great mixing master teaching others, you should have something to show everyone your wonderful methods. I looked through a lot of your past posts but to be honest they were pretty much nothing but negative, argumentative comments. I couldn't find any pics. I'm sure we would all enjoy seeing these.

I am not trying to start anything with you, I just think that if your going to support and encourage mixing you should have something to support your claims of how easy and wonderful it is.
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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2009, 09:46 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by joshieluv View Post
Your not getting off that easy, Phil asked you for evidence supporting your claim that are frogs are thriving, healthy frogs. If you are truly some great mixing master teaching others, you should have something to show everyone your wonderful methods. I looked through a lot of your past posts but to be honest they were pretty much nothing but negative, argumentative comments. I couldn't find any pics. I'm sure we would all enjoy seeing these.

I am not trying to start anything with you, I just think that if your going to support and encourage mixing you should have something to support your claims of how easy and wonderful it is.
I'll post pics. I said that I would this weekend. I love showing off my frogs. The tank is packed with a few extra plants that I have been aquiring for the new tank I am waiting for but it is essentially the same as the pictures I posted in a previous thread.

I'm simply not going to defend myself any longer from those that have no experience with mixed species tanks and subsequently have nothing substantial to offer other then an arguementative empty opinion.
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Old 05-15-2009, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

No offense folks but pictures really aren't going to tell you that much... a frog can be fat and immunosuppressed... that is one of the reasons I rarely ask for photographic proof..

As a further thought for those who want photographic evidence.. with respect to the photos.. when dealing with personal enclosures there is little if anything to indicate that the photos are recent, or even of those exact enclosures.

Ed
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:02 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by hendyUNLV24 View Post
Jelly was simply bringing up the point that it was an irresponsible post because it made assumptions without employing the scientific method. Jelly, as responsiblity dictates, stated his experience with mixed-species tanks. Certainly others that have mixed-species experience have both congruent and conflicting results with Jelly. Theses are the only people who should be making statements about the merits/demerits of mixed-species tanks.
I totally agree with your post up until this point. Observation alone is not scientific. Hence the problem Jelly has had with the OP. Now, that may be justified, but him saying that mixing works based on the fact that he has kept a mixed tank is no better. The only conclusion that can be made is that mixing won't necessarily outright kill frogs. It says nothing on whether or not frogs do well, or do no worse than a single species tank. In order to make any conclusions about mixing, he would have to do what I suggested.

Now, that said, I asked a number of questions of Jelly that I'd like to have answered:

Quote:
To Jelly, I've got a couple questions.

What benefit to each of the species is there for a mixed species tank?

You say that people want to mix to get a colorful display. Why can't this be done by creative planting and/or paludariums with fish? Keep in mind that many of the most colorful frogs are tiny, and without the creative planting, they'd look like specks of color on an otherwise green background.

Have you considered that your experience might be the 1 in a million success with mixing? Since that does seem to be the case given all of the evidence that mixing isn't good, is it really wise to advocate mixing? It would be likened to saying "Buy a lottery ticket because you will win $1,000,000."

Have you run single species tanks with the frogs in your mixed tanks and determined that weights, reproduction, eating, intraspecific competition, call rate, etc. are no different than in the mixed tank?

How big is your mixed tank? What species are in it and how many of each? What is the age of the frogs? What is the sex ratios of the species?

There is a big difference between surviving and thriving. For example, there has been a recent movement in the zoo industry to make habitats more natural. Animals survived in the concrete boxes that animals were kept in, but did not do well. It was found that animals did much better and thrived in more natural enclosures. Same thing with these frogs. Your frogs are surviving, but do you have evidence that they are thriving?

Just a few questions...
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:08 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

For myself, after digesting all of this, if all things were equal between the two populations and the only arguement to be made was the hybrid issue, that is where being responsible and a consiencous stewards and protectors of our beloved friends and dare I say, "loved ones", would prohibit mixed species environments all together. There, that's how I feel. Take it or leave it!
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:21 PM
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Smile Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I am not offering an opinion, just wanting evidence. Don't bother posting pics for me, someone showed me the thread you are talking about and I found it rather laughable.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
I'll post pics. I said that I would this weekend. I love showing off my frogs. The tank is packed with a few extra plants that I have been aquiring for the new tank I am waiting for but it is essentially the same as the pictures I posted in a previous thread.

I'm simply not going to defend myself any longer from those that have no experience with mixed species tanks and subsequently have nothing substantial to offer other then an arguementative empty opinion.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:26 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Just before I catch any flack from anyone, I would like to say that I'm not endorsing the OP or Jelly. I believe this topic is much more complex than many people are saying.

Just because OP observed action "A", doesn't mean action "B" is inevitable.

Just because Jelly claims success in multi-species tanks, that doesn't mean others will have the same success.

And of course, the matter of what is a successful frog population is a debate in itself.

Fecundity(the ability of a individual to pass on its genes to a new generation) is a very complex thing to determine. Also, it is not the only measure of the success of a species. Many individuals within a species may not find reproductive success, and instead will make efforts to ensure the success of closely related individuals, thus ensuring some of their genetics are passed on.

Furthermore, many of us have no desire for our frogs to reproduce. So, in my opinion, success for one person, is not always success for another.

Many of us spay or neuter our dogs and cats, but they still live long, healthy lives as successful pets, without reproducing. I know this analogy is a bit of a stretch, but I hope people will see my point.

Now, if Jelly were to make the admission that he is trying to have reproducing pairs, but has not acheived this, then I agree that he has not been successful. This could be for any number of reasons. I'm sure there are those of us with only one species in a tank that have had difficulty acheiving reproductive success.
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Old 05-15-2009, 10:56 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Good post (above).

Just when you think that you cannot possibly take another mixed species or hybrid thread......you read on and discover a lot of good postings, information and theories.

This was / is ,actually a very good thread, despite how it started.

The OP may have started the thread with a post that wasn't designed or written in the best fashion BUT he is to be commended for his desire to help, share and do the right thing.

Remember....we are all in this together. It is US (and frogs) against the world....if you really want to take it that far. We all have strong opinions and a passion for these animals. I am sure nobody thinks either advocate of this topic is a bad or horrible person who is mistreating their animals.

We all type and say some inflamatory stuff on ocassion and some of us like to debate (argue)...ehem...but there isn't anyone on this forum that I would refuse to have a beer and talk with.

Except Jellyshrimp.

He's only 14.....
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:05 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
but there isn't anyone on this forum that I would refuse to have a beer and talk with.

Except Jellyshrimp.

He's only 14.....
He might be up for some kool-aid and a chat.
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:06 PM
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He might be up for some kool-aid and a chat.
Or...Mountain Dew if it's not too late at night....Certainly!
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by joshieluv View Post
I am not offering an opinion, just wanting evidence. Don't bother posting pics for me, someone showed me the thread you are talking about and I found it rather laughable.
Sorry, I'm not following you? I get bored with the same plants all the time so yes I do keep a few potted plants in my tank. Currently there is one. The majority of my plants are actually attached to cork bark.

I am curious as to exactly what you found laughable.

I just looked at the pics I previously posted and I'm pretty sure there actually are not any potted plants in those pictures?? But like I said, I do like to use some potted plants so they are easily swapped out for a different look from time to time.

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Old 05-15-2009, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by MonarchzMan View Post
I totally agree with your post up until this point. Observation alone is not scientific. Hence the problem Jelly has had with the OP. Now, that may be justified, but him saying that mixing works based on the fact that he has kept a mixed tank is no better. The only conclusion that can be made is that mixing won't necessarily outright kill frogs. It says nothing on whether or not frogs do well, or do no worse than a single species tank. In order to make any conclusions about mixing, he would have to do what I suggested.

Now, that said, I asked a number of questions of Jelly that I'd like to have answered:
Send me a PM if you would like to discuss.
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Old 05-16-2009, 01:05 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Here are a bunch of pics as requested. Ed please feel free to ask me to take another pic of something to ease your mind that they may be fakes. Not the best it has looked but I was expecting my new tank at the end of April but it was delayed until the end of may(hopefully) becasue they were waiting for a shipment of starfire glass so I have not trimmed or tidied it up in some time.

Sorry they are not such good shots. I just snapped them off really quick.







Below has three new hanging cork bark pieces I just received from SpringValley Farms
























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Old 05-16-2009, 01:40 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

You know, I briefly entertained the thought of writing a very very lengthy (more lengthy than this) reply just why, theoretically, dart frog intraspecific aggression should occur more commonly than interspecific aggression*, but then I thought, why bother? The rabid "mix-haters" aren't gonna take anyone who tries to have a reasonable discussion about this (animal behaviour is an extremely fascinating topic, in my opinion) serious anyway. Jeez, I am against mixing (for several reasons), but I'm still getting annoyed with people whose only statement to this particular problem of mixing seems to be "you suck, don't do it (anymore)". "Don't do it" is not a reason, it is advice that should point one in a certain direction, the reasons are WHY the advice points us in that direction.
So why might mixing not be a good idea:
- crossed morphs (in case you mix frogs of the same species, but not morph): Not cool. No-one wants to unknowingly buy a frog of "unpure" (lol) blood. Note: This doesn't stop people from buying tinc "Amotopo" and tinc "Agreja" though. Why not, I wonder? Apparently these morphs are the results of crossing morphs. Shouldn't that make them undesirable? Ah well.
- actual hybrid offspring occurring: It is possible that a auratus mate with a leucomelas, and a auratus x leucomelas hybrid offspring may be born of it. However, I am unsure whether these bastard frogs would even be fertile (anyone?).
- mixing small darts with larger ones: dude. Big will flatten little. If you don't need to expend much energy to take out a weaker individual that competes with you for food (etc), and that you can't breed with (same gender, or different species and gene pools too far apart), and there isn't much risk of injury, then why not do it? All the better for you (animal logic! )
- mixing more aggressive darts (a) with "less aggressive" ones (b): dude. A will flatten B. Or he might, at least.
- mixing bolder darts with shyer ones: And then they starved...
(the last three are all theoretical for me, I haven't tried them! And I don't want to.)
In conclusion: I wouldn't mix 'em.

* Oh yes, if anyone is wondering, in "short": Breeding partners! Since it's every animal's main objectives to a) stay alive (and if possible in good condition) and b) (under favorable conditions) to have as many offspring as possible, it is only logical that, let's say, a male tinc should be more threatened by another tinc than a male of another species, since the animal will recognize the other male as a member of the same species, and that will mean the other male will automatically be seen as a rival for the ladies. Which, of course, they won't like. Stress. Threatening. Fighting. The more similar a frog is to the first male's species, the more likely it is he will be seen as a rival for females. Similar in shape, seize, color, pattern, sound (their call is very important! Do tinc males get angry when they hear leucs (in a different tank) calling? Do tinc females react to leuc males calling? Not really. But they get pissed (males) when they hear other tincs), smell (though, of course, I don't know how good frogs can smell, at that).
Even for a different species which occupies the same ecological niche as another species, they're only rivals regarding one of the two main objectives: stay alive + in good condition. That means they're competitors for food, water (well, not regarding darts here ), breeding/nesting spots, and possibly territory as well. That doesn't mean they like each other, of course, just because they're not competing for females. It means they won't necessarily want to expend the energy to get rid of the other (if they are about equal opponents), if it is not necessary.
This is the point where it would be logical that another male leuc means more stress for a male leuc than another male tinc. The second male leuc is a major threat to the first male leucs chances to have offspring (and vice versa, of course). Now both main objectives are threatened. Not cool.

See? Theoretically it makes sense that having same-species animals of the same gender in a tank/cage/small area/whatever together can be just as, if not more critical regarding stress and fighting than a mixed tank. Lol I will probably be getting negative rep points just for stating this, even though I have stated before that I am, in fact, against mixing, but for other reasons.

Practically, studies have been done on other animals (like birds) that show exactly this: that intraspecific aggression is more common than interspecific aggression. (Right now, I'm pretty sure I even have one report sitting around on my hardware somewhere, a report that states intraspecific aggression occurred more than twice as often than interspecific aggression in a certain kind of bird (I forgot, though I am reasonably sure it was some kind of Shrike).

Of course, if you cram too many beings into a tank/cage/area/whatever, some individuals will inevitably end up drawing the short straw. Too densely populated area = lack of space/resources = stress = weakened immune system and/or death, aggression (intra- and interspecies), infanticide, etc - all those nasty things.

In light of this, I don't believe the original poster made a very good argument here. because "my two same-species same-gender frogs are fighting, now look what would happen if you mixed frogs?" yeah, kinda self-explanatory.

And now I'm done. I'm sure all extreme anti-dart-mixers (now that sounds wrong ) will just hate this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
There are alot of questions here.
What size setups did they have?
How well were they designed?
Where did the plants come from?(possible contamination or fertilizer?
Were backup tanks ready in case frogs needed to be seperated?
How often and how much was being fed?
Were did they get the frogs?
Were the frogs in good health prior to be introduced?
What was the umidity levels?
Was there proper drainage?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post

NONE of these questions matter. These were new hobbyists that purchased some of their first frogs from.....somebody.... and ended up with a mixed species tank.

Not all new people have computers or can immediately access DB or PM you for advice on issues that crop up.

My guess is that you are going to say that all this is purely coincidental....
To put it mildly, I am surprised that no other Dendroboard member participating in this discussion has taken some real offense to this statement. So you're saying it doesn't matter whether the frogs introduced into the tank were actually healthy in the first place? They could have been parasite-infested, for example. I guess quarantining and getting the frogs' fecals done isn't all that important after all, so long as you make sure you don't put two different species in the same tank. Too low a humidity will not actually cause frogs in a mixed species tank to die and shrivel up because of dehydration, no it will be because THEY HAVE SUCKED THE WATER OUT OF EACH OTHER, LIKE INSECT-EATING, WATER-SUCKING LITTLE KILLING MACHINES. How they have done this, of course, is another question.
These frogs could have died of pretty much anything. Without proper information we'll never be able to guess at a probable cause. Saying "Ooh they were mixed THAT'S IT!" is simply not enough. And I am saying this even though I am by no means a supporter of mixed species tanks.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Blackbird,

I really don't think you have any idea as to exactly how hard it was to try to read and comprehend your post.......

I mean no disrespect, but is English your second language?

If you are unclear or unsure about one of my posts, please either re-read the posts above mine in order to bring it into context or post again without all the other confusing tangents and replies to two or three different people........makes it really hard to understand.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:03 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Okay. Too many frogs, Jesus. We should try and do what's best for our frogs. This isn't it. I doubt the frogs are even able to get territorial in your tank in the first place. It's like in the fish stores, where there are sooo many territorial fish crammed into one tank that they can't even begin to establish a territory. Just. It's beyond "not cool". It'd piss me off if I saw it at a pet store, even.

Just - how long have you been keeping the frogs like this? Without one dying? Sort of curious, here.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:05 AM
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....and Jel.....kudos to you for having the guts to post those pics, at least.

as to comments?......I got......nothin'......
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:09 AM
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A picture is worth a thousand words, dude, you said it all with that catstrophe of a viv.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:10 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Blackbird,

I really don't think you have any idea as to exactly how hard it was to try to read and comprehend your post.......

I mean no disrespect, but is English your second language?

If you are unclear or unsure about one of my posts, please either re-read the posts above mine in order to bring it into context or post again without all the other confusing tangents and replies to two or three different people........makes it really hard to understand.
Aw hell... I'm sorry my English seems to be confusing... but yes, in fact, whether you meant to disrespect or not (I'm not too good at catching your kind of sarcasm) English is in fact my second language. Though I've been told I'm not so bad I can't be understood by native speakers. Oh well. No worries though, I'm not insulted. Also, I understood your post. That's pretty much why it annoyed me so. I'm sorry though, I didn't mean too hurt anyone's sensibilities. You know, just in case I did.

"two or three people"? Lol... I only quoted Jellymany so that people would have a better idea what I was talking about regarding your reply to him. I didn't reply to him at all in that post.

If you are still confused about my post feel free to ask me. I'd hate to miss out on a potentially good discussion simply because of communication problems.

P.S.: Any spelling errors, grammar errors, wrongly used phrases and incorrect idioms you can totally keep. For free.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:15 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

No disrespect meant here, I assure you.

Your English is fine, by itself.....it was just the length of the posting and the references to multiple other posts / people, I think.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:37 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Blackbird

I was able to kill a delicious molson canadian tallboy reading your first post 3 times Shorten it up a bit please. What were you getting at?


Jellyman

There's no way those frogs are living like that! That has to be staged. Never would you see all those frogs out like that in those positions. That's what frogs do when you first put them in a viv. They're searching all over the place. It's obvious


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Old 05-16-2009, 02:38 AM
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* Oh yes, if anyone is wondering, in "short": Breeding partners! Since it's every animal's main objectives to a) stay alive (and if possible in good condition) and b) (under favorable conditions) to have as many offspring as possible,
Careful with painting with so broad a brush Wolves are an excellent example of not following B

Quote:
This is the point where it would be logical that another male leuc means more stress for a male leuc than another male tinc. The second male leuc is a major threat to the first male leucs chances to have offspring (and vice versa, of course). Now both main objectives are threatened. Not cool.
But you're assuming that a leuc male would be able to recognize a tinc male. I don't think that that would be the case. My guess is that it would not see it as a male, but simply as a potential competitor of resources, and that would be an issue. And in that case, it would be worse for a leuc male because it would see both males and females of the opposite sex in a negative light rather than just males.

Jelly, what is laughable is that you have 16 frogs that are mostly terrestrial (some will climb, but they tend to spend the vast majority of their time on the ground), so you have 16 frogs sharing 8 square feet of space. That's two frogs per square foot. That is ridiculous density. Not only that, but some of the frogs look thin to me, which really doesn't surprise me at that density.

Also I asked the questions so that the answers would be posted on the thread. If I wanted them to be answered in PM, I would have sent you a PM. Answers to those questions would make or break your case. If you find the answers to the questions not to your liking, then perhaps you should rethink your stance on if mixing works.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Okay. Too many frogs, Jesus. We should try and do what's best for our frogs. This isn't it. I doubt the frogs are even able to get territorial in your tank in the first place. It's like in the fish stores, where there are sooo many territorial fish crammed into one tank that they can't even begin to establish a territory. Just. It's beyond "not cool". It'd piss me off if I saw it at a pet store, even.

Just - how long have you been keeping the frogs like this? Without one dying? Sort of curious, here.

Agreed, it is too many. Although, they are feeding in that picture and are in basically 1/6th of the available floor space(and that does not include any of the additional area that they have access to above the ground level or within the ground level). I am waiting for the arrival of my new tank that will be 6' long x 3' wide x 30" tall. Basically doubles the size of the current enclosure.

I have receipts that will date the frogs from being purchased from Saurian Ent. and Vansihing Jewel in July 2002. That would make them almost 7 years old.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:43 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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A picture is worth a thousand words, dude, you said it all with that catstrophe of a viv.
Yeah, it is definitely not in it's finer moments as far as eye appeal. It has been neglected for the past two months. I was expecting my new tank at the end of April and had been aquiring items for the build(this is all in a different thread) but the place building my tank is waiting on a starphire glass shipment and the tank got pushed back until the end of May. Hopefully my new 6' long x 3' wide x 30" wide will get less of a rude comment from you.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:45 AM
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Maybe I'm the only one who missed it, but Glenn made an excellent point. Frogs do not do that, I have to search for mine because they hide so well except at froggy dinner time.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:48 AM
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Sorry Jelly, just a bit of a shock. No harm intended.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:50 AM
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I have receipts that will date the frogs from being purchased from Saurian Ent. and Vansihing Jewel in July 2002. That would make them almost 7 years old.
No offense, but that means nothing. Simply means that you bought frogs in 2002. Unless you have them PIT tagged and those numbers are printed on those receipts, you cannot prove that those frogs are in fact the same ones you bought in 2002.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:51 AM
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Careful with painting with so broad a brush Wolves are an excellent example of not following B



But you're assuming that a leuc male would be able to recognize a tinc male. I don't think that that would be the case. My guess is that it would not see it as a male, but simply as a potential competitor of resources, and that would be an issue. And in that case, it would be worse for a leuc male because it would see both males and females of the opposite sex in a negative light rather than just males.

Jelly, what is laughable is that you have 16 frogs that are mostly terrestrial (some will climb, but they tend to spend the vast majority of their time on the ground), so you have 16 frogs sharing 8 square feet of space. That's two frogs per square foot. That is ridiculous density. Not only that, but some of the frogs look thin to me, which really doesn't surprise me at that density.

Also I asked the questions so that the answers would be posted on the thread. If I wanted them to be answered in PM, I would have sent you a PM. Answers to those questions would make or break your case. If you find the answers to the questions not to your liking, then perhaps you should rethink your stance on if mixing works.
I am refraining from defending myself from the likes of hobbiest that have no experience and hence no ground to stand on when giving advice or arguing that I am wrong. I answered all of your questions in a PM. Why do you have a problem with that? Are you continuing to post only with the intent to argue? I told you in the PM that if my answers did not meet your standards to be more specific and I would do my best to answer them.

I do agree that there are too many frogs in the current setup. I'll be upgrading soon to a tank twice the size. And I actually have 18 frogs 4+4+4+4+2=18 and they are in 6 square feet of living space 2x3=6. And again, I agree with you that there are too many frogs for that amount of space.

And you are really reaching if you think my frogs look thin.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:55 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Blackbird

I was able to kill a delicious molson canadian tallboy reading your first post 3 times Shorten it up a bit please. What were you getting at?


Jellyman

There's no way those frogs are living like that! That has to be staged. Never would you see all those frogs out like that in those positions. That's what frogs do when you first put them in a viv. They're searching all over the place. It's obvious


Glenn
That's what they do when it is feeding time. I can take a picture at anytime for you if you would like. You are welcome to come to the house at anytime. Anyone that is around the Kansas City area is welcome to come by anytime. You can stop by uninvited so there is no chance of me staging a tank. They are only out like that when I feed them because I feed in the front left corner of the tank. The remainder of the time they are all over the place.
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:55 AM
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Maybe I'm the only one who missed it, but Glenn made an excellent point. Frogs do not do that, I have to search for mine because they hide so well except at froggy dinner time.

Come on jellyman. I don't mean at all to be rude but they just don't behave like that unless they've just been put into a viv

Especially that many

Glenn
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Old 05-16-2009, 02:56 AM
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No offense, but that means nothing. Simply means that you bought frogs in 2002. Unless you have them PIT tagged and those numbers are printed on those receipts, you cannot prove that those frogs are in fact the same ones you bought in 2002.
I knew one of you great die hards would take that stance. No they are not tagged. What is PIT tagged?? Are you talking like a microchip or something?
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