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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2009, 09:51 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Mike didn't seem to display any signs of stress and was observed to return to the breakfast buffet for a second helping of eggs!
I'm still fairly new so I might be wrong, but I would think egg eating is a sign of stress, aggression and territorial issues.



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Old 05-14-2009, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma
Mike didn't seem to display any signs of stress and was observed to return to the breakfast buffet for a second helping of eggs!

I'm still fairly new so I might be wrong, but I would think egg eating is a sign of stress, aggression and territorial issues.endquote

This is a surprise to me...
1) I didn't know that Mike could lay eggs
2) that he was selling them for the commercial food market (wow, that is a lot of eggs to lay, Mike must be one prolific egg layer...)


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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2009, 09:54 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
There are alot of questions here.
What size setups did they have?
How well were they designed?
Where did the plants come from?(possible contamination or fertilizer?
Were backup tanks ready in case frogs needed to be seperated?
How often and how much was being fed?
Were did they get the frogs?
Were the frogs in good health prior to be introduced?
What was the umidity levels?
Was there proper drainage?
NONE of these questions matter. These were new hobbyists that purchased some of their first frogs from.....somebody.... and ended up with a mixed species tank.

Not all new people have computers or can immediately access DB or PM you for advice on issues that crop up.

My guess is that you are going to say that all this is purely coincidental....
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:55 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
As with anything else that involved animal welfare.. the individual's definition is not necessarily the accepted standard as the welfare of the animal is what needs to be considered optimal.




Define adequate size and on what standard and proof that the size is adequate?
Define proper substrate and on what standard and proof that the substrate is "proper".
Define well planted and define not overgrown.
Define proper humidity and on what standard and proof. Does the proper humidity apply to all species that could be housed in the enclosure?



As above, define all of these vague terms.



Define "plump" most of the frogs in enclosures are obese when compared to the wild counterparts. How do you determine if your plump is obese. Obesity could very be a sign of poor husbandry.

Define excessive aggression and how you reached that result.

Ed
Ed,
It's not an exact science. Yes you are very capable of quoting a source from a book that will give you some statistics but in reality very little is known that can be proven to be 100% correct when it comes to dart frogs. If needed I'm sure someone(and it is not going to be me) can find a quote in a book or publication that contradicts your quote. The way I would answer all your questions would be based on what has worked for me and the success I have had with my frogs and the other tanks I have helped setup. This does not mean that my way is the only way or the best way just that it does work under the parameters i have been using.

Honestly the true measure of all your questions is observation. We can mimic the environment to temp and humidity and try to landscape them with optimal use of the environment,. but what it really comes down to is whether or not your frogs get along and this is only identified through observation. The more in tune you are with your setup the better chance of success you will have. If you throw 5 frogs in a cube and look at them once a week, probably not so much.
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Old 05-14-2009, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by salix View Post
I'm still fairly new so I might be wrong, but I would think egg eating is a sign of stress, aggression and territorial issues.



Deb

Deb THAT is Hilarious!
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2009, 09:59 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
NONE of these questions matter. These were new hobbyists that purchased some of their first frogs from.....somebody.... and ended up with a mixed species tank.

Not all new people have computers or can immediately access DB or PM you for advice on issues that crop up.

My guess is that you are going to say that all this is purely coincidental....
That is ridiculous. If they purchased frogs without doing the research then none of this matters in the first place. Everyone of those questions are relevant to whether or not they would have a successful single or mixed species tank. Not all people have computers, but all have access to the library and the libraries have computers. You honestly should just stop posting because your agenda is clear, you do not believe in mixed tanks but have no experience, proof, or evidence as to why they cannot be successful. All you have is second hand info passed onto you from others without experience.
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:05 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
I'm simply tired of the same people who have no experience on the subject trying to tell everyone they know what is best and not giving any credit to those that actually have experience(trial and error if the case may be).


Well, I know that temperatures in the high 90F's are not conducive to the health and good keeping of dart frogs based on what I have read in print and on here.

I do not need a summer power outage or a science experiment to be able to speak intelligently on the issues and concerns of high temperatures.

I also believe that supplements are "good" to use and to not allow them to expire or otherwise go bad. I don't think I need or want to test that senario either.

Other than a "science experiment"....what EXACTLY are you trying to achieve with your mantle of "champion of mixing"?

That it can be done?
That Mt Everest can be climbed?
That it is as "good or better" than a single species tank?

What is it?
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Old 05-14-2009, 10:10 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Jellyman - you must have some pretty dang successful mixed tanks to be so confident that it's no problem.

Please share your secrets with the rest of us.

If you are looking for 'evidence':
The fact is there have been many threads posted about a dead, sick or stressed frog and one of the parameters has been a mixed tank.

How many threads can you find with examples of stress-free, happy mixing?
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:06 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by afterdark View Post
Jellyman - you must have some pretty dang successful mixed tanks to be so confident that it's no problem.

Please share your secrets with the rest of us.

If you are looking for 'evidence':
The fact is there have been many threads posted about a dead, sick or stressed frog and one of the parameters has been a mixed tank.

How many threads can you find with examples of stress-free, happy mixing?
Not many because those that keep mixed tanks either stopped coming to this site or are afraid if they do admit it they will be attacked as I am. I see far more threads of peoples single species tank frog deaths and can site probably 100 but you know how to you the search function so I will let you look it up if you are truely interested.

As a matter of fact my tanks have been very successful. I have only lost one frog becasue he escaped and it was too late when I found him. I do admit that a bit of luck was involved since there is very little help from the hobby community. I have posted several times in numerous threads of how to be successsful. You have chosen either not to read them or have simply disregarded the information.

I would love to start a thread with how to setup a mixed tank but those that have no experience know more then I do and it would just be me defending my information.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:09 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post

Well, I know that temperatures in the high 90F's are not conducive to the health and good keeping of dart frogs based on what I have read in print and on here.

I do not need a summer power outage or a science experiment to be able to speak intelligently on the issues and concerns of high temperatures.

I also believe that supplements are "good" to use and to not allow them to expire or otherwise go bad. I don't think I need or want to test that senario either.

Other than a "science experiment"....what EXACTLY are you trying to achieve with your mantle of "champion of mixing"?

That it can be done?
That Mt Everest can be climbed?
That it is as "good or better" than a single species tank?

What is it?
That's it exactly. That it can be done. Because as you said you have read 1000 posts over the past three years of members asking how to do so. With that much interest it is a good reason to find out if and how this can be accomplished so those that simply want to enjoy a colorful vivarium will be enabled to do so. That has been my opinion since day one.


I've answered your questions but you still have not answered mine:
What experience do you have that enables you to give advice on mixed species tanks?
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Ugh. Everyone please just stop.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Mike,

I understand your pain....you can click "unsubscribe" to this thread.

Me?....I have to say, that Jel and I have a "little more" to discuss.....
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2009, 11:24 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
I've answered your questions but you still have not answered mine:
What experience do you have that enables you to give advice on mixed species tanks?
Read my above post....I don't need to stick my hand on the stove to know that it's not a good idea.

You are right...I don't own a mixed species viv.

Here's an idea jel.......why not post your success? Lets have a few pics of your viv and your frogs.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:32 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
It's not an exact science. Yes you are very capable of quoting a source from a book that will give you some statistics but in reality very little is known that can be proven to be 100% correct when it comes to dart frogs..
So why does something have to be proven 100% to be used to determine the parameters to be of value in setting the parameters needed for the care of the frogs?
Not to be offensive, but your answer appears to be a dodge to avoid defining those conditions as a hard knowledge of those conditions is required to be able to house species that are not going to compete together much less those that will directly compete...

The measure of success, that I would suggest using is as follows
1) life span exceeds the median and approaches the reported maximum for those species
2) optimizing the display of natural behaviors occuring in all species housed there including demonstration of normal activity patterns as shown in the literature.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
We can mimic the environment to temp and humidity and try to landscape them with optimal use of the environment,. but what it really comes down to is whether or not your frogs get along and this is only identified through observation. The more in tune you are with your setup the better chance of success you will have. If you throw 5 frogs in a cube and look at them once a week, probably not so much.
The ability to have significant differences in temperment is not something that has been seen in anurans.. that is a mammalian trait that is being misapplied.. anurans are much more hard-wired along those lines which is why the issue is not the same species but behavior and shape. The plasticity in the behavior occurs due to resource allocation and core territories not whether or not one frog is more "tolerant" than another.


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Old 05-14-2009, 11:35 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
There are alot of questions here.
What size setups did they have?
How well were they designed?
Where did the plants come from?(possible contamination or fertilizer?
Were backup tanks ready in case frogs needed to be seperated?
How often and how much was being fed?
Were did they get the frogs?
Were the frogs in good health prior to be introduced?
What was the umidity levels?
Was there proper drainage?


If there was an atmosphere of open communication here all these questions could have been asked and the information could have been obtained. The answers to these questions would have greatly increased the chances of a successful setup.
I was merely trying to point out that, most people who mix, lack the proper husbandry skills to begin with. You've stated before that only the most advanced froggers should be mixing frogs. Why then would they need your advise. If someone asks the question they are surely not an advanced frogger. The answer should be a resounding no!
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:40 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
So why does something have to be proven 100% to be used to determine the parameters to be of value in setting the parameters needed for the care of the frogs?

"It does not have to be 100%. That is my point. Everyone wants to argue that mixed tanks should not be kept because there is no 100% proven method."

Not to be offensive, but your answer appears to be a dodge to avoid defining those conditions as a hard knowledge of those conditions is required to be able to house species that are not going to compete together much less those that will directly compete...

"No offense taken. Valid question. I have put down a good portion of my experience in other threads and have been told they are off topic. I'd would love to post them but feel I would probably be booted from the board for all the ruckas it would cause."



The measure of success, that I would suggest using is as follows
1) life span exceeds the median and approaches the reported maximum for those species
2) optimizing the display of natural behaviors occuring in all species housed there including demonstration of normal activity patterns as shown in the literature.




The ability to have significant differences in temperment is not something that has been seen in anurans.. that is a mammalian trait that is being misapplied.. anurans are much more hard-wired along those lines which is why the issue is not the same species but behavior and shape. The plasticity in the behavior occurs due to resource allocation and core territories not whether or not one frog is more "tolerant" than another.

"I disagree with you on this point. I feel it is completely relevant in the social structure of the frogs."


Ed

My responses are quoted within. Was not sure how to best try and answer your questions.
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Old 05-14-2009, 11:44 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Philsuma View Post
Read my above post....I don't need to stick my hand on the stove to know that it's not a good idea.

You are right...I don't own a mixed species viv.

Here's an idea jel.......why not post your success? Lets have a few pics of your viv and your frogs.
I've done that and was accused of lying about the age of my viv. Use the search function and you should be able to find them. Good try.

But just to humor this I will take some pics this weekend. I'll be taking it down in the next month once my new tank arrives.

Anyhow, time to play with my children. Thanks for all the discussion today. Makes work go by faster See you all tomorrow. Same Bat Time, Same Bat Channel.

Last edited by Jellyman; 05-14-2009 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 05-15-2009, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

so, back to the point on page 1...

That's cool that you saw them both calling, and are obviously successful to the point of having calling males. I hope all works out well for you.

Kyle/Mods, theoretical questions:

1) I've spent a lot of good time on Dendroboard, but can I get the last 15 minutes of my life back?

2) Is there a bottom threshold on reputation that a member must reach before banishment or at least infraction?
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

[QUOTE=Jellyman;362829]That's it exactly. That it can be done. Because as you said you have read 1000 posts over the past three years of members asking how to do so. With that much interest it is a good reason to find out if and how this can be accomplished so those that simply want to enjoy a colorful vivarium will be enabled to do so. That has been my opinion since day one.


To mix speicies in the same viv is just considered " bad practice" and it does not mean it cant be done.
its not a good idea to yell "bomb" on a plane but it doesnt mean you cant physically do it. its just not a very good idea.

when i first came into the hobby i asked also how come no one has mixed vivs and everyone jumped down my throat and i didnt think it was that serious. after careful re search and reading i find that the PDF's are just very easily stressed animals and to achieve great things with them you would want to keep their stress levels down. im not one for going with the norm on alot of things but i do like to follow good practice and be considered a "good frogger" would i like a mixed speicies tank with different types of frogs and colors sure who wouldnt? but with mixing comes cross breeding and everything else. this debate is truely useless because frogging is all opinion there hasnt been proved to be a right way or a wrong way to do anything in this trade yet. im sure there are ppl out there culturing fruit flys in a old shoe.
but i dont believe that we need to all get on our high horses and throw big words and fancy terms quote books and throw out correct or incorrect data to enjoy our collections. but as it stands and just how it will always stand.. ( mixing tanks is bad practice ) i have witnessed ppl purchase frogs at shows and such or through private sale of different species of PDF's and the seller say its ok to keep them all together ( and their own statement to justify it ) " keep them together till 8 months of sexual maturity" and i just smile and walk away.. not my business. could i have said something.. sure.. but why? to get into a heated debate which can possibly end in someone missing teeth? not worth my time. but jelly i would like to see your sucess of your mixed tanks you seem like a very educated and straight foward person and i happen to know Phil personally and he happens to be a very great and sucessful frogger which is why the only good out of this debate is that im learning from both ends. no matter if i agree or disagree. but lets please not let it get out of hand by any means. because remeber one thing.. both sides are in this hobby for the love of the animal.
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:18 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Some people would argue with a fence post if they thought it would argue back.
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

The only way to stop these threads is to stop responding period............................................ .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...........................
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Old 05-15-2009, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Some people would argue with a fence post if they thought it would argue back.
No I would not.

Let's start our own side argument.
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
So why does something have to be proven 100% to be used to determine the parameters to be of value in setting the parameters needed for the care of the frogs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
"It does not have to be 100%. That is my point. Everyone wants to argue that mixed tanks should not be kept because there is no 100% proven method."
So your position on this argument is that because you say we don't understand the various aspects of the required husbandry to set up a well maintain enclosures (humidity, substrate etc) as they haven't been 100% defined, this supports multispecies enclosures as we don't understand 100% of the parameters needed for those enclosures? If this not your argument, then please define the questions I asked above.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
The ability to have significant differences in temperment is not something that has been seen in anurans.. that is a mammalian trait that is being misapplied.. anurans are much more hard-wired along those lines which is why the issue is not the same species but behavior and shape. The plasticity in the behavior occurs due to resource allocation and core territories not whether or not one frog is more "tolerant" than another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jellyman View Post
I disagree with you on this point. I feel it is completely relevant in the social structure of the frogs."

If the frogs had the ability to be "tolerant" then it would be relevent, however this view point is not supported by the published literature. There is a technical term for "tolerance" in territorial species. This is known as Dear Enemy Phenomena and the studies have shown that this doesn't occur in dendrobatids.

A second highly possible scenario is that the frogs are showing "tolerance" because the normal behaviors are being suppressed for one reason or another....

Can you provide any hard data to back up that the supposed "tolerance" occurs in the frogs?


Ed
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:20 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by afterdark View Post
If you are looking for 'evidence':
The fact is there have been many threads posted about a dead, sick or stressed frog and one of the parameters has been a mixed tank.
And there have been equally many where it hasn't been a mixed tank, and yet, when it is mixed, people always assume thats the problem. Sometimes its not. Sometimes it is. But people ALWAYS jump to the conclusion that it is, and that doesn't help.
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:22 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Rich Conley View Post
And there have been equally many where it hasn't been a mixed tank, and yet, when it is mixed, people always assume thats the problem. Sometimes its not. Sometimes it is. But people ALWAYS jump to the conclusion that it is, and that doesn't help.
Well it would be fair to say that in all cases thier heart stopped beating....

Ed
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:24 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Well it would be fair to say that in all cases thier heart stopped beating....

Ed
Right, but I DESPISE when people turn anecdote into "fact"
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:28 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Right, but I DESPISE when people turn anecdote into "fact"
Can we assume that the heart stopped beating in all of those cases as a fact?

Ed
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Old 05-15-2009, 03:30 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quite the thread. Kind of nutty thread, but that's what happens with mixing threads. I'm glad Phil lightened the mood.

To Jelly, I've got a couple questions.

What benefit to each of the species is there for a mixed species tank?

You say that people want to mix to get a colorful display. Why can't this be done by creative planting and/or paludariums with fish? Keep in mind that many of the most colorful frogs are tiny, and without the creative planting, they'd look like specks of color on an otherwise green background.

Have you considered that your experience might be the 1 in a million success with mixing? Since that does seem to be the case given all of the evidence that mixing isn't good, is it really wise to advocate mixing? It would be likened to saying "Buy a lottery ticket because you will win $1,000,000."

Have you run single species tanks with the frogs in your mixed tanks and determined that weights, reproduction, eating, intraspecific competition, call rate, etc. are no different than in the mixed tank?

How big is your mixed tank? What species are in it and how many of each? What is the age of the frogs? What is the sex ratios of the species?

There is a big difference between surviving and thriving. For example, there has been a recent movement in the zoo industry to make habitats more natural. Animals survived in the concrete boxes that animals were kept in, but did not do well. It was found that animals did much better and thrived in more natural enclosures. Same thing with these frogs. Your frogs are surviving, but do you have evidence that they are thriving?

Just a few questions...
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:26 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

This may have been discussed, but after a while, this thread just seemed to blend together like one big whiney nightmare, so if it has been discussed, then I'm sorry. I was always under the impression that the biggest argument against mixed tanks was the likelihood that the two species would breed together and create a hybrid, and that some genius could then take these hybrid offspring and sell them off to newbies in the hobby as "a cool new morph". Many of the hybrids I have seen are kinda cool looking, imo, but the possibilities that this scenerio could happen seems pretty feesible, so I have stayed away from mixing species myself and people who do mix species. Even if you are responsible and would not do this, that would mean you would have to kill the eggs, tads and froglets created by the two species, and since I don't enjoy killing frogs, I stay away from mixing species. Just my thoughts...

...I wish I had a job where I the time to sit around and write essay-length responses to every differing opinion on a 6 page thread. It would be nice.....I didn't get to sit down at work tonight...
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Old 05-15-2009, 04:44 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Same thing with these frogs. Your frogs are surviving, but do you have evidence that they are thriving?
You could ask that question to almost any frogger here, and they'd be no more qualified to answer it than he is.

Again, no different in single species and mixed species tanks.
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Old 05-15-2009, 04:47 PM
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What benefit to each of the species is there for a mixed species tank?
What benefit is there to any species being kept in a glass box in your house? What benefit to the animal is there to keeping a pair of Pums in a 20g tank, as opposed to a more natural 300g tank? What benefit to the animal is there to feeding it an incomplete diet that robs it of its natural defense mechanisms?

The "What benefit?" question really doesn't work, now does it?
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Old 05-15-2009, 04:54 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Can we assume that the heart stopped beating in all of those cases as a fact?

Ed
Yes Ed, but we can not just assume what caused that fact without taking everything into consideration.


Every thread I've seen with a mixed tank, and a sick/dead frog, nobody ever asks about supplements. Nobody ever asks about whether fecals were done. Nobody ever asks about overcrowding. Nobody ever asks about temperature.

It was 105 degrees yesterday, but mixing must have killed the frogs.



I'm not saying mixing is a good thing, or that people should be doing it, but that a lot of the jumping on mixing keeps the actual issues from being ascertained. This thread is a great example of the obfuscation that goes on: the thread is about a bunch of leucs fighting in a single species environment. What does that have to do with mixing?
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:16 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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What benefit is there to any species being kept in a glass box in your house? What benefit to the animal is there to keeping a pair of Pums in a 20g tank, as opposed to a more natural 300g tank? What benefit to the animal is there to feeding it an incomplete diet that robs it of its natural defense mechanisms?

The "What benefit?" question really doesn't work, now does it?
Well... lets look at the enclosure reference here... why is a 300 gallon more "natural"?

Rich you stated that you despise anecdote turned to fact but this is exactly what you are doing here.. as this is not stated as opinion.

It is a known fact (and you can pull it up out of the literature) that one of the main drivers of territoriality as defined by space is resource allocation... if the resource allocation is correct in a 20 gallon then it can be as natural as the 300 gallon and if the allocation is incorrect then the 300 gallon would actually be less natural...

Personally in my opinion, larger may be better as it can allow for greater microniches but this is totally dependent on how the enclosure is managed.

If you are referring to the natural defenses with respect to the toxins, this is an incomplete idea as there are a number of peptides that provide natural defenses that are not dietarily related and the idea that the dietarily derived ones are important for captive animals is still speculation without any hard data while the idea that the problem is more related to hypovitaminosis of retinol is gaining support based on other captive anurans.


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Old 05-15-2009, 05:30 PM
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Yes Ed, but we can not just assume what caused that fact without taking everything into consideration.
I was being tounge in cheek but you seem to have an axe to grind over this issue.. so as a simple fact in and of itself, the final cause of death of the frog(s) was organ failure.. any thing else was what contributed to the final cause of death....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Conley View Post
Every thread I've seen with a mixed tank, and a sick/dead frog, nobody ever asks about supplements. Nobody ever asks about whether fecals were done. Nobody ever asks about overcrowding. Nobody ever asks about temperature.

It was 105 degrees yesterday, but mixing must have killed the frogs. .
With respect to the supplements... vitamin and mineral requirements are highly conserved with some variations in some species (tolerance etc) and the effects of various stressors (positive and negative) are also highly conserved.. (you can search this in the literature but I would suggest starting with the references in the Nutrition Chapter of Mader's first book by Donoghue etal). Stressors can increase the metabolic need for different vitamins and/or minerals and based on the data seen in other anurans, the requirement for retinol in captive anurans is increased and we are seeing more and more signs of hypovitaminosis of A in captive anurans (everything from some forms of embryo death, SLS, to suppression of the immune system) and if the "mixed enclosure) is set up improperly or managed improperly then mixing will cause the frog to die due to the effects of stress on the animal (for a review of stress in this manner I suggest Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles (stress and the effects of stress are also highly conserved). So the cause of death is stress as manifested by x,y,z caused by improper management....

Now I will agree that many people jump to to stress due to mixing as the causative factor, given the multifocal manifestations of stress in anurans and how it can lead to death, this is also not an unreasonable suggestion. Even a necropsy cannot rule out stress due to improper management as death due to an infection could be a result of immunesuppression due to the stress...

The same can be said about supplements, etc. The only things that can be ruled out are those that cause mechanical trauma or are documented as major issues such as a rapid thermal spike (but this is also a stress in and of itself).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Conley View Post
I'm not saying mixing is a good thing, or that people should be doing it, but that a lot of the jumping on mixing keeps the actual issues from being ascertained. This thread is a great example of the obfuscation that goes on: the thread is about a bunch of leucs fighting in a single species environment. What does that have to do with mixing?
Actually its not a great obfuscation as the title of the thread indicates. The original poster was using the observed behaviors within a single species enclosure to make the connection to multispecies. The thread has evolved from that point.

Ed
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:37 PM
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Actually its not a great obfuscation as the title of the thread indicates. The original poster was using the observed behaviors within a single species enclosure to make the connection to multispecies. The thread has evolved from that point.

Ed
And I don't think that the behavior within a single species tank points out any dangers of a multispecies tank that aren't already present in a single species tank.


The original poster was using an observation that is relevant to ALL tanks with more than one individual, multispecies or not.

The title of this thread should be "so, you want a reason to keep an eye on same sex frogs?"


EDIT:

Ed, let me try to be more clear here: Cross Species aggression can most certainly be an issue in mixed tanks. Signals are often not the same, and animals misread aggression cues. All these are potential issues. Generally mixed tanks have higher densities, which also cause issues (IE, one pair of each species in a tank only big enough for one total pair).

I just do not feel that anything the OP posted is any more relevant to mixed tanks than it is to tanks as a whole, and that the thread title, and his assumptive jump are inappropriate given the specifics. If you don't agree, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Last edited by Rich Conley; 05-15-2009 at 05:44 PM.
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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You could ask that question to almost any frogger here, and they'd be no more qualified to answer it than he is.

Again, no different in single species and mixed species tanks.
Try asking how many people have played around with ratios of sexes, enclosures, environments, and enclosure make up, and I think that you will be very surprised at how many people have toyed around with their frog tanks to help make life better for their frogs. I know froggers that have tried all sorts of methods for their frogs. It's fairly common practice.

And generally, when people do that, they can easily tell whether or not the frogs are doing better: they're out more, calling more, breeding, active, maintaining natural behavior.

The problem that Jelly has is that each species is unique in all of those things. In order to see that they're thriving in a multi-species environment, he needs to observe how they do, in the same conditions, in a single-species environment. If they maintain the same quality of life in a single species environment or a poorer quality of life in a single species environment, he would have a significant argument for mixing. He has not yet done that, at least that he has indicated.
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Old 05-15-2009, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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And I don't think that the behavior within a single species tank points out any dangers of a multispecies tank that aren't already present in a single species tank.


The original poster was using an observation that is relevant to ALL tanks with more than one individual, multispecies or not.

The title of this thread should be "so, you want a reason to keep an eye on same sex frogs?"


EDIT:

Ed, let me try to be more clear here: Cross Species aggression can most certainly be an issue in mixed tanks. Signals are often not the same, and animals misread aggression cues. All these are potential issues. Generally mixed tanks have higher densities, which also cause issues (IE, one pair of each species in a tank only big enough for one total pair).

I just do not feel that anything the OP posted is any more relevant to mixed tanks than it is to tanks as a whole, and that the thread title, and his assumptive jump are inappropriate given the specifics. If you don't agree, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
One thing that I haven't really seen addressed or acknowledged is that territoriality differs between species. Leucs are considered a relatively non-aggressive species whereas tincs are considered to be more aggressive. I think that the point that the OP was making is that fights can occur and be instigated by non-aggressive species in a mixed tank. I'm sure people would expect aggressive species like Tincs to instigate fights, but would not necessarily expect the non-aggressive species to instigate them. So, while one's eye may be on the tincs for being bullies, one might miss the fights that still happen with the frogs that aren't supposed to be bullies.
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Old 05-15-2009, 06:32 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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One thing that I haven't really seen addressed or acknowledged is that territoriality differs between species. Leucs are considered a relatively non-aggressive species whereas tincs are considered to be more aggressive. I think that the point that the OP was making is that fights can occur and be instigated by non-aggressive species in a mixed tank. I'm sure people would expect aggressive species like Tincs to instigate fights, but would not necessarily expect the non-aggressive species to instigate them. So, while one's eye may be on the tincs for being bullies, one might miss the fights that still happen with the frogs that aren't supposed to be bullies.
The aggressiveness of the tinctorius is dependent on a number of things... but again it does fall back onto resource allocations.. one of the reasons you see such aggression in tinctorius is that the females are territorial in defending what may be a limited resource (access to a male and oviposition sites). (for a good reference in dealing with a different Dendrobatid see BioOne Online Journals - Space Use of Amazonian Poison Frogs: Testing the Reproductive Resource Defense Hypothesis) (but tinctorius are closer to JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie)

In the distant and dark past, I was able to maintain groups of tinctorius in 20 gallon longs without the issues seen today by providing more than one male and multiple egg deposition sites....

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Old 05-15-2009, 06:35 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Rich,

You are refuting all our examples and cites....

Ca we get you on record as to exactly why you support mixed species vivariums?

and

Do you own any? How many years experience do you have with them?
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Old 05-15-2009, 07:33 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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And I don't think that the behavior within a single species tank points out any dangers of a multispecies tank that aren't already present in a single species tank.


The original poster was using an observation that is relevant to ALL tanks with more than one individual, multispecies or not.

The title of this thread should be "so, you want a reason to keep an eye on same sex frogs?"

Hi Rich,

I'm not sure that the idea behind the observation precludes either the title, the attempted application of the observation or the subsequent evolution of the thread. Misapplication etc of the observation is in part what the discussion is where it should be addressed...
With that said, I'm don't really see a preponderance of evidence that an observation that could be applied to any multiple animal enclosures invalidates the OP's original premise or title.

While it may in some aspects be better addressed to single species enclosures, that is in part what the discussion subsequent to the original post can address if the readers choose to do so.. in this case, the weight of the discussion is on the multiple dendrobatid species enclosures.

Ed
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