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  #361 (permalink)  
Old 07-31-2009, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by earthfrog View Post

It reminds me of the commonly-available Glofish that are injected with neon-colors---they sell well and they may live awhile, but is it fair that they have to exist with that genetic manipulation---freaks of nature?.
Hi Susan,

It depends on the variety of glo-fish. If you are referring to the modified zebra danios, these are not injected but have been genetically modified with jellyfish genes and these genes are often passed down through multiple generations (it can vary depending on how many copies they incorporated initially) and do not have negative effects on thier reproduction. The injected fish are another story as they typically lose the color over the next couple of months.


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Originally Posted by earthfrog View Post
But these frogs have no recourse. I would say that there is a place for mixed tanks, but it is only in the hands of an experienced keeper at either a zoo or someone involved in conservation/study efforts---someone of great experience and knowledge. I think that many of the mixed tanks are just for jollies, and I do not condone that. It is in some cases cruel, notwithstanding the fact that these frogs will not be able to have a mate and live on.

I will not let my frogs be the ones that die in the corner of their 'playground'.

As noted above in several different posts, the problems are due to inappropriate choices for cage mates and/or inproper set-up of the enclosure. If the enclosure is set up properly then the frogs should breed and behave without any issues. If it is not appropriately set up.. well that is a different story.

Ed
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  #362 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2009, 12:11 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Hi Susan,

It depends on the variety of glo-fish. If you are referring to the modified zebra danios, these are not injected but have been genetically modified with jellyfish genes and these genes are often passed down through multiple generations (it can vary depending on how many copies they incorporated initially) and do not have negative effects on thier reproduction. The injected fish are another story as they typically lose the color over the next couple of months.


As noted above in several different posts, the problems are due to inappropriate choices for cage mates and/or inproper set-up of the enclosure. If the enclosure is set up properly then the frogs should breed and behave without any issues. If it is not appropriately set up.. well that is a different story.

Ed
Thanks, Ed. The summary at the bottom of your quote is what I was getting at in my last post.
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  #363 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2009, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Anyone from NYC see the current mixed dart frog exhibit at the Planetarium/Museum of Natural History?

One of the nicest [and I'd say only nice one] I've seen.

Huge exhibit...large enough to have pums hopping in broms 4 ft up, tricolor midway calling away and all sorts of terrestrials below. Well segregated by the size and massive root in the center [360 degree exhibit].

I cant imagine any of us could replicate 'nature' to this degree....without a room dedicated to the space....but it literally was the only time I've seen a set up that might convince me that it is at least possible to do it 'right'.

S
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  #364 (permalink)  
Old 08-04-2009, 04:15 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by skylsdale View Post

I think perceived prestige and popularity, and the possibility of something new and challenging that no one else has is a huge driver of price and supply in the hobby: a new frog hits the hobby, one of the first obtainers of said species posts pictures of it and everyone drools over it. Then the first person who breeds it posts pictures and an account of it and everyone drools over it. Then more people begin to obtain the frog and breed it...and everyone generally gets bored and starts looking for a new import or species or morph to drool over. The hobby and its fickle nature is its own worst enemy...

Although there is obviously a somewhat selfish aspect to the hobby in that we choose to keep these animals in captivity for our interest and enjoyment, I also think that the character of our hobby has the potential to affect these animals for better or worse. I think it will affect how we manage (or don't bother to manage) the animals in our care. I think it will affect how we will work together (or don't work together) toward conservation of amphibian species in the wild. The hobby could become an increasingly fickle and narcissistic market (and I'm sure aspects of it will), or it could be comprised of some folks who decided to be serious about the plight many of these species face and commit to doing something about it. Sometimes that may mean NOT keeping 20 different species and having to sell your entire collection 18 months down the road. Maybe it means keeping two different species and keeping them really well, being a solid source and steward for those speices in the hobby and captive cultivation. Maybe it consists of actually managing your animals (like in the *cough*ASN network*cough*) so they are actively being tracked so we know what's going where, what's in trouble and needs attention and what's not, etc. Maybe it means sometimes selling your frogs at a premium price because that's what you feel they're worth and it helps recoup some of the effort/time you put into raising them...and maybe sometimes it means giving a few away free and putting them into the hands of someone who is truly capable of doing well with that species.
I def. think this is at the root of the issue w/mixing and not mixing---conservation.
I remember reading about how when orchids were first imported, they were expensive and many died due to lack of care---and now many years later, we have lost so many species b/c of the craze of consumerism. I would like to be at least one person who works against that tide by breeding my frogs.
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  #365 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 04:21 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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I would like to be at least one person who works against that tide by breeding my frogs.
Breeding doesn't necessarily equal conservation or maintaining a species in the hobby--it's the purposeful management and tracking of animals within the hobby that will help preserve a captive species. You can breed all you want of species X and even know the exact history of where it came from...but if no one knows where it's going after that, how well it's doing once it's in someone else's hands, etc. then we're somewhat deluding ourselves by thinking we've "saved" or "established" this species. We could be breeding it, but those offspring are just heading out into some sort of vacuum.
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  #366 (permalink)  
Old 08-09-2009, 11:23 PM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by skylsdale View Post
Breeding doesn't necessarily equal conservation or maintaining a species in the hobby--it's the purposeful management and tracking of animals within the hobby that will help preserve a captive species. You can breed all you want of species X and even know the exact history of where it came from...but if no one knows where it's going after that, how well it's doing once it's in someone else's hands, etc. then we're somewhat deluding ourselves by thinking we've "saved" or "established" this species. We could be breeding it, but those offspring are just heading out into some sort of vacuum.
Very true. I think screening buyers and distributing offspring to others who will properly care for them is essential to conservation. Furthermore, I think the ones most likely to properly care for them are those who make themselves accountable to parent conservation organizations. This is not to say that those who are not part of those organizations will not care for them well, but without accountability (should something happen to the caretakers), there is no fallback for the frogs and many species may disappear in the hands of some who will not work to protect them.
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  #367 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 12:45 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
It depends on the variety of glo-fish. If you are referring to the modified zebra danios, these are not injected but have been genetically modified with jellyfish genes and these genes are often passed down through multiple generations (it can vary depending on how many copies they incorporated initially) and do not have negative effects on thier reproduction. The injected fish are another story as they typically lose the color over the next couple of months. Ed
i notice you say that the "glowing" genes in the Glofish (i better be careful using that since it's a copyrighted name haha) have been successfully passed to multiple generations of offspring. was this done by those holding patents during initial research or for breeding stock? i was under the impression that the US allows them to be sold (FDA since i believe they control genetically modified animals in the US) but only as sterile specimens (to quell the outrage that was sure to follow the release of these fish on to the market)

is this not the case?

james
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  #368 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

Quote:
Very true. I think screening buyers and distributing offspring to others who will properly care for them is essential to conservation. Furthermore, I think the ones most likely to properly care for them are those who make themselves accountable to parent conservation organizations. This is not to say that those who are not part of those organizations will not care for them well, but without accountability (should something happen to the caretakers), there is no fallback for the frogs and many species may disappear in the hands of some who will not work to protect them.
Even in light of all that, if we don't know where they're going we can't know how they're actually doing. Frogs could be going into the hands of great hobbyists and herpetoculturists...but even they can neglect to hold back an assurance colony of offspring, experience a hickup in life, etc. that can eliminate a major source of species X in captivity. If that happens, and we don't know where they've gone and no way to track/manage what's gone out into the expanse of the hobby...we could lose the entire species or morph in captivity. It's happened before, and some have never made it back into the hobby (the "Giron Valley" form of E. tricolor comes to mind). There are forms of species that have disappeared, even in the hands of skilled hobbyists.

Registering animals in things like the ASN can help us track trends and respond to rapid drops in popularity, captive numbers, etc. If we don't know what's out there, or what numbers its existing in...we simply can't do anything about it. I agree with what you've said...but even in screening buyers, having high husbandry practices, etc...if we aren't actually registering and tracking them, we don't have any more potential in stopping the loss of a morph/species in the hobby than we have ever had in its history.
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  #369 (permalink)  
Old 08-10-2009, 04:11 AM
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Default Re: So, you want a reason to not mix species?

I totally agree---and for my part, I am not into fads in other regards, so the current hot new frog isn't going to cause me to abandon/sell my current ones in favor of the next new, rare thing.

I concede that registering and tracking animals so that ASN knows who has what and how many are out there helps us not to take what we have for granted---who knows what a frog's fate is without a reliable fallback like that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylsdale View Post
Even in light of all that, if we don't know where they're going we can't know how they're actually doing. Frogs could be going into the hands of great hobbyists and herpetoculturists...but even they can neglect to hold back an assurance colony of offspring, experience a hickup in life, etc. that can eliminate a major source of species X in captivity. If that happens, and we don't know where they've gone and no way to track/manage what's gone out into the expanse of the hobby...we could lose the entire species or morph in captivity. It's happened before, and some have never made it back into the hobby (the "Giron Valley" form of E. tricolor comes to mind). There are forms of species that have disappeared, even in the hands of skilled hobbyists.

Registering animals in things like the ASN can help us track trends and respond to rapid drops in popularity, captive numbers, etc. If we don't know what's out there, or what numbers its existing in...we simply can't do anything about it. I agree with what you've said...but even in screening buyers, having high husbandry practices, etc...if we aren't actually registering and tracking them, we don't have any more potential in stopping the loss of a morph/species in the hobby than we have ever had in its history.
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