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Old 08-09-2020, 10:14 PM
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Default We need to act, it is up to us!

I cannot stand it any longer. Please help me kill, destroy....errrm educate the people of facebook.

The word Bioactive needs to put to rest. It makes zero sense.
“My bioactive vivarium with live plants” is akin to “ I drive my automobile vehicle that moves me forwards with wheels”

Please don’t be that friend that smiles and lies to your friends to avoid issues (in some cases that is understandable, but this is too much.....

We live in a culture now that tries to be unique and self expressive over actually researching anything. People throw in the towel after a 6 minute google search...they need our help for frogs sake!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:35 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking us to do....
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Old 08-09-2020, 10:49 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Catch Phrase keeping and one-factor encapsulated ideologies poison development.

Its a problem.
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Old 08-09-2020, 11:13 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

The wisest thing I've ever heard about 'bioactive':

Quote:
Originally Posted by S2G View Post
[...] bio-active. Its such an overused term for marketing and it works. Hell your doorknob is bioactive.
As for this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick_ View Post
they need our help for frogs sake!!!!!!!!!!!
we are here and ready to help. Newcomers to DB too often come packing a self-fulfilling prophesy that they'll be talked down to, berated, chided, and they see that in our replies even when it isn't there.

My favorite lightbulb joke can be adapted to this forum (well, to all of life, actually):

Q: How many psychologists does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change.


As for this:
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Originally Posted by Nick_ View Post
educate the people of facebook.
"...much more difficult than weaving a rope out of sand..." -- Borges, The Circular Ruins
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:20 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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I'm not entirely sure what you're asking us to do....
I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl.

All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:25 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl.

All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.
Oh, I should go there?

Ha, ha, ha....hahahaha.....ho,ho...he,he....

I'd rather eat three month old fruit fly culture scrapings.
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:39 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl.

All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.
I am active on two facebook groups for dart frogs, I point people at dendroboard when folks ask for information on where to begin research.

I am all for helping people through any misunderstanding they may have but I feel like this ship has sailed. The dictionary defines bioactive as "having an effect on a living organism".

But just from reading a truly crazy amount of posts on facebook, on here, and elsewhere the word bioactive has become a 'term of art' meaning a term that has a definition different from its dictionary definition when used within a certain context. When regarding vivariums bioactive means (to the best of my understanding) a vivarium that has both plants and bugs as clean up crew.

Not exactly a lot more involved but there it is. The truth though is that it SOUNDS cool, so yeah, as has been pointed out its now a marketing thing /shrug

It doesn't bother me but I am coming to the froggy world after people have been saying 'bioactive' for a few years now, so maybe its different for folks who have been around longer?
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:49 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Oh, I should go there?



Ha, ha, ha....hahahaha.....ho,ho...he,he....



I'd rather eat three month old fruit fly culture scrapings.
Ew, just ew, man. I lost a wee bit of respect for you on offering to eat that... (I kid, I kid, mad respect for you SM).

Eh, I'm not going to another web location to try to educate people.
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Old 08-10-2020, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

I remember running into one stylishly tatted young lady on a video giving the run down to the masses, explaining how Keeping Bioactive is better because you do less maintenance, because of knowing about beneficial bacteria and the roles of the Clean Up Crews and other intelligent stuff, and that if you look at the world around you, and peoples jobs, the smarter people dont do hard jobs where they clean, and they get paid more and are more valuable to society than the manual labor type people.
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:20 AM
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Oh shoot I forgot to spell it the cool way..Bioactiv

So Lit!
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Old 08-10-2020, 06:46 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

I'm fairly new to the hobby and this board.
What is the OP asking here? What exactly is the threat to the frogs?

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Old 08-10-2020, 07:00 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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I'm fairly new to the hobby and this board.
What is the OP asking here? What exactly is the threat to the frogs?

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I don't think most of us have figured this out yet either.
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Old 08-10-2020, 11:47 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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I'm fairly new to the hobby and this board.
What is the OP asking here?
I think the point is that the "bioactive" discussions on FB are full of culpably ignorant people and knowledgable folks from DB should go save them, along with a questionable assumption that most ignorance is simply a matter of a lack of information.
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:17 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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I think the point is that the "bioactive" discussions on FB are full of culpably ignorant people and knowledgable folks from DB should go save them, along with a questionable assumption that most ignorance is simply a matter of a lack of information.
I recently deleted FB after 14 years or whatever it's been; just prior to that I had a long and detailed exchange in a group wherein I explained how that marketing term can be misleading and would be very difficult to execute within the context of high-metabolism, relatively large colubrids from semi-arid regions with limited resources.

(I have *a lot* of experience with reptiles.)

The person was polite, did the online equivalent of smiling and nodding, said "Yes of course" and proceeded to do exactly what they were intending to do all along.

There are a lot of people online that ask for 'advice' but what they want is confirmation. I don't know if that's a social media thing or the result of incredibly effective marketing or what.

Not gonna lie, at that point I just give up.
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:27 AM
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Oh, I should go there?

Ha, ha, ha....hahahaha.....ho,ho...he,he....

I'd rather eat three month old fruit fly culture scrapings.
My exact thoughts....put far more eloquently than I could have.
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:36 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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There are a lot of people online that ask for 'advice' but what they want is confirmation. I don't know if that's a social media thing or the result of incredibly effective marketing or what.

Couldn't agree with you more...
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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I recently deleted FB after 14 years or whatever it's been; just prior to that I had a long and detailed exchange in a group wherein I explained how that marketing term can be misleading and would be very difficult to execute within the context of high-metabolism, relatively large colubrids from semi-arid regions with limited resources.
Yes, although rather than 'difficult to execute' (which is true, of course), I think the more important point is that it would not lead to improved outcomes relative to established methodology; there is no motivation for 90% of the "bioactive" craze beyond novelty.

Quote:
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There are a lot of people online that ask for 'advice' but what they want is confirmation. I don't know if that's a social media thing or the result of incredibly effective marketing or what.
I think that is just a human thing. Social media simply amplifies it, and makes it more apparent. Also, DBers are pretty bad at giving unwarranted confirmation, to the chagrin of some people.
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:53 AM
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Yes, although rather than 'difficult to execute' (which is true, of course), I think the more important point is that it would not lead to improved outcomes relative to established methodology; there is no motivation for 90% of the "bioactive" craze beyond novelty.
Right, I remember touching on that, although it was very probably more long-winded (have you met me? LOL) ...

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I think that is just a human thing. Social media simply amplifies it, and makes it more apparent. Also, DBers are pretty bad at giving unwarranted confirmation, to the chagrin of some people.
I concur.
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:54 AM
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I have repeatedly stated that I hate the term. I'm pretty moderate when it comes to a lot of my views, but this is not one of them. We have been doing things the way the "bioactive" crowd has just caught on to for years. Only they do it stupider and with flawed reasoning behind their ways. I checked out a couple of pages a while ago to see what the hubub was about and offended by what I read.

I saw nitwits saying the more diverse the enclosure the better "since diversity better approximates nature. More species present represents a more complete natural chain". This may be true in a nature preserve, but it couldn't be further from the truth in a small glass box.

I saw people advocate taking soil from various places outdoors was preferable to a substrate such as abg due to the hitchhikers contained within, without any care of where the soil was collected, or what hitchhikers may be present. Many advocate not cleaning or taking precautions with regard to sterilizing from using stuff from outdoors. The advice sounded like a nice recipe for chytrid or any other number of problems. Furthermore, the "diversity methodology" essentially justifies new hobbyist and even some experienced hobbyists vision of setting up mixed species enclosures.

And everything has it's own micro environment. Including my toilet seat. Should I add dung beetles to my bathroom habitat to handle the waste since the bacteria colonies aren't diverse enough?

Sorry for the poorly worded rant. I'm at work and don't have the time to connect the dots on my thoughts and reasonings regarding bioactive. I just believe it is lame beyond all measure.
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:56 AM
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I think the point is that the "bioactive" discussions on FB are full of culpably ignorant people and knowledgable folks from DB should go save them, along with a questionable assumption that most ignorance is simply a matter of a lack of information.
Oh social media is indeed full of misinformed misinformers.

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Old 08-11-2020, 01:41 AM
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Its unfortunate when a term with an actual definition gets popularized like this.

It makes it difficult to use the term ever again in its true sense. Ive seen it happen with other words and its irritating when a term would be useful but because it now has an insufferable coating on it, you cant.

If I ever use a word thats popular like that, know I mean it in the old, obscure, unpopular way.
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Old 08-11-2020, 01:00 PM
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The person was polite, did the online equivalent of smiling and nodding, said "Yes of course" and proceeded to do exactly what they were intending to do all along.
This is Dendroboard in 2020 except that they demand information and are not polite when you give them anything except for what they wanted to hear in the first place.
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Old 08-11-2020, 01:27 PM
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I never seen different on any forum or other social media group for that mather.
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Old 08-11-2020, 02:39 PM
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This is Dendroboard in 2020 except that they demand information and are not polite when you give them anything except for what they wanted to hear in the first place.
I've seen a fair bit of that since I joined. The demand thing must come straight from Facebook ... err ... 'culture' for lack of a better term. Saw that there a lot more.

As if there aren't people on the other end of those messages, just an amorphous, impersonal "Internet" that exists solely for instant gratification and soundbites.

People used to do actual research (yeah, I sound like a cranky old dude now -- and I'm not even *that* old but I'll give you cranky) ... now I see a lot of would-be hobbyists pop up and say:

SHOW ME YOUR SET-UPS or I'M DOING RESEARCH HOW DO I TAKE CARE OF THIS ANIMAL I JUST BOUGHT

So they haven't done any of the basic reading which is more readily available than ever. They have no specific questions. They expect strangers to take time out of their day to write them a textbook on the spot, and if they don't like what they see, move on to the next person until they get what they want to hear.

Obviously that's an extreme example, but it's not an insignificant number of people and makes me worry about not only the animals but where this hobby's going to wind up. It's no wonder that ignorant legislators and special interest groups have a field day with people like this setting a (loud) example.

I have nothing against beginners and understand it takes some time before you even know the right questions to ask, but I don't think I'm alone in noticing a really poor shift in attitude.

This is probably related to the hobby now expanding outside of its once much smaller niche due to social media, with more people comes more of what you don't want along with the good. I guess time will sort it out, just bothers me that it's not good for the animals.

To be fair I've seen a couple of veteran keepers act like total jerks on social media, too. Always makes me raise an eyebrow when grown adults think it's okay to be rude to strangers on the internet from the safety and comfort of their own home. The world's full of tough guys. Who knew?
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Old 08-11-2020, 03:25 PM
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Ah yikes, twinge of red here. But I know my 'emotional currency' is connection, and I dont start off being rude or wanting to.

My problem is a low threshhold of grace with people who gather the consensus they ask for yet willfully choose the option of lesser animal life quality because it fits their space or energy level or other convenience factor.

The other thing thats difficult to manage is when trying to explain a thing, a thing that one has worked with intimately for years and someone who is asking about said thing; wants to debate about the fundamentals of it, though they only became aware of it, like 3 weeks ago, or even 10 minutes.

Its still good to share things as you never know how it will manifest in some other scenario with someone else reading in the future of its exposure.

Keeping ones patience in check can help ensure the palatability of its reception. I type this as a reminder to myself.
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Old 08-11-2020, 03:50 PM
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Ah yikes, twinge of red here. But I know my 'emotional currency' is connection, and I dont start off being rude or wanting to.

My problem is a low threshhold of grace with people who gather the consensus they ask for yet willfully choose the option of lesser animal life quality because it fits their space or energy level or other convenience factor. [snip]
Everyone has their moments, but I was more referring to someone immediately being abrasive, sarcastic or outright rude to someone with whom they've never had any interaction with.

At that point it's no longer about the hobby or the animals. Pseudo-anonymity and distance can bring out the worst in people.
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Old 08-11-2020, 04:48 PM
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Allow me to use the parlance of our times to repurpose two words; Defund bioactive.
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Old 08-11-2020, 05:09 PM
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I never seen different on any forum or other social media group for that mather.
If you were referring to my comment, Tijl, it's sad because it didn't used to be that way here. I think it's only the last 3 or 4 years that people have become so demanding. It has really made me limit my participation, to be honest. I don't have the bandwidth to answer new people's questions only to have them tell me I am wrong. Sorry, OP, I certainly don't have the bandwidth to extend to all of social media. I appreciate you fighting the good fight, but all too often, it's pearls before swine. Remember - never fight with a pig; you both get dirty and the pig likes it.

Mark
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Old 08-11-2020, 05:12 PM
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Unfortunately I think the ship has sailed. As someone with more experience with chams I can't help but face-palm when I see all the new folks in the cham hobby being sold on "bioactive" setups when chams don't need it. There's no way it's less maintenance to use substrate and maintain microfauna colonies than standard cham husbandry. Chams are tricky enough for new folks so why make it more complicated? They covet likes, re-posts and shares of their "slice of rainforest", and there will always be someone who will find a way to profit off such motivations.

That being said, these forces are much bigger than our hobby. While bemoaning them may reinforce our in-group identity and make us feel good, it probably won't help new hobbyists or the animals much.
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Old 08-11-2020, 05:46 PM
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I've said it before,

content creators like Troy Golberg for example give and show the content PEOPLE want.. Not what FROGS need. Their buisnessmodel is based to grow or sell their product and this unfortunatly is not providing the information people need since they do not care about such content..

If you show (or tell) people what the frogs need or want, (well y'all know cause otherwise we would not been having topics like this..) they refuse this information because they have seen different from influencers and other media that showed amazing green and moist tanks!

This is exactly what is wrong in Europe with the 'standardized' frog tanks. Everyone want that perfect 'slice of nature', not the frog habitat with the ugly leaflitter for example..

Vivariums, frogs, fish or any other animals for that mather have become a luxury product in our world. They are not considered live animals and an important part of the ecosystem but rather a display indoor for our amusement.. Unfortunatly luxury products are also trow away products, so when it dies, replace it.. Just like flowers for example.
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Just let it be.

Humans operate on simple principles and there is not much you can do about it. Sometimes people try to fix how we speak or whatever but ultimately people are going to keep doing what they do. People need some word, a word to help them differentiate between keeping animals on largely inert disposable / high maintenance substrates and keeping them in soil with an ecosystem. Bioactive is what they came up with and it is now engrained and going to stick. No honestly unless you come up with a better word I dont think you are going to change anything, and even if you do you still might not change anything.

A really relevant example of this is actually from our very own world. Poison dart frogs were once called poison arrow frogs, then and people would argue they were actually used on darts, this was early in the game. Then there was even a movement to strip dart from the name and call them poison frogs since only 1 or 2 species were known to be used with darts. But ultimately the mass market just stuck with poison dart frogs. It is what it is.You can invest a whole bunch of energy trying to change a word and it wont mean anything. Its better to put that energy toward better things, like just generally helping to make sure the frogs that are out there are best cared for.

Language always has to keep changing and always will, thats how humans operate I wont dig into the psychology of that but its something that you just have to accept.
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Old 08-11-2020, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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[snip]
That being said, these forces are much bigger than our hobby. While bemoaning them may reinforce our in-group identity and make us feel good, it probably won't help new hobbyists or the animals much.
Countering marketing and social media's 'trend-of-the-week' with good information is all you can do. And hope that staying on-message will attract people who care, eventually.

The way I see husbandry breaking down is:

1. What works for most people most of the time by eliminating variables to avoid problems over time, while giving the animals things they can use.

There always seems to be "that guy" popping up to tell you what he's "done for years and never had a problem" and "look at my prolific, healthy charges".

Well great, your Kung Fu is pretty good, but you can't expect everyone to replicate that successfully when they barely know how to culture fruit flies.

2. What doesn't work at all and will definitely kill your charges.

3. What you can get away with for an indefinite period of time before something otherwise avoidable eventually goes wrong. A LOT of the questionable practices experienced keepers argue against here fall into this category.

I made mistakes years ago; my tanks weren't as well-ventilated as they are today and they were surely too wet. I got lucky and didn't have any problems, but if I'd continued in that vein for a decade I probably would have; or maybe my frogs would have soldiered on but had a less than ideal existence, which isn't cool for all the obvious reasons.

4. Highly experienced keepers in the position of being able to recognize issues and deal with them, in addition to having the time and inclination to monitor for those issues, sometimes making unusual choices.

That last one takes years of observation and learning. It doesn't come from a care-sheet and it requires resources a lot of people may not have.

So in light of all this one just keeps explaining that there's a formula that builds a foundation for long-term success.

I don't know, I suppose it's more about arguing *for* the better option instead of wasting your breath arguing *against* the latest trend.

(I need to go yell at some kids to get off my lawn.)
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Old 08-11-2020, 08:19 PM
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I could not resist..

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Old 08-11-2020, 08:23 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Newcomers to DB too often come packing a self-fulfilling prophesy that they'll be talked down to, berated, chided, and they see that in our replies even when it isn't there.
It is there more often than I expected, even given my experience in other forums. I would assert DB has a great wealth of passion and expertise that in many ways surpasses other forums I've encountered. Hence I didn't stop at lurking. I've had very positive experiences on this board thanks especially to fishingguy, Socratic, Fahad, and pumilio among others . Great job. At the same time, this high level of expertise can lend itself to a certain abrasive haughtiness and down-talking. Is it a majority of experienced members, or have I experienced much of it directly? No, yet it's definitely noticeable. There's the much discussed tired expert-demanding novice dynamic but there's also an expert-expert dynamic I've observed in which egos are very fragile while simultaneously expecting newcomers, even kids to have robust tolerance for abrasiveness, down-talking and sarcasm. There's a tension there and room for improvement on our part IMHO.

Are people generally sensitive, seeking validation over evidence? Absolutely. Has instant gratification made people more unreasonable? Sure. Yet, are these forces likely to change soon? I think not. For the sake of our ecothermic friends it's better to err on the side of inclusion, grace and humility - that is not to say it is easy. The right thing usually isn't. It's obviously bad for the hobby if people are afraid to ask questions, especially those most prone to mistakes. Dispelling myths and answering basic questions ad nauseam sucks but it is better than suffering frogs - it is easier said than done.

Do I now appreciate the time when the hobby was smaller? Damn right, I loved reptiles and amphibians out of the womb before it was cool but it's not about me or the fad folks on social media. It's about the animals and our responsibility to them. This must come above all else, even frustration with uninformed or willfully ignorant humans. You catch more flies -have more influence- with honey than vinegar. I want this board's knowledge to have more influence relative to the Youtubers. We can't compete with their videos and marketing savvy so we cannot afford to be haughty and exclusive.

If you have the bandwidth to help the fad folks, please go for it!! There is always a place for constructive and honest feedback. However, adding fuel to the fire or turning new folks away from the knowledge here because you had a bad day or have a need to feel smart is selfish and bad for the frogs. How we act is something we as a community have some control over...IME focusing too much on all the things we can't control (fads, trends, malicious fools, profiteering, language etc) is a road to madness.

*rant complete*
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Its being forgotten that internet discourse isnt the same as face to face non virtual conversation.

There is a substantial absence of normal conversive cues, eye contact, nuanced amendment and emotive alignment of understnding and clarification.

As a result these Blanks in communication are "filled in" per subtext in projection by the reader.

Combine this with a structure that enables one to pause and deliberate in response - unlike spontaneous exchange, cherry pick and ignore points and what you have is a mutated version of communication far removed from our native capacities, yet treated as if it is Real Conversation.
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:22 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackReidMarx View Post
I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:



It is there more often than I expected, even given my experience in other forums. I would assert DB has a great wealth of passion and expertise that in many ways surpasses other forums I've encountered. Hence I didn't stop at lurking. I've had very positive experiences on this board thanks especially to fishingguy, Socratic, Fahad, and pumilio among others . Great job. At the same time, this high level of expertise can lend itself to a certain abrasive haughtiness and down-talking. Is it a majority of experienced members, or have I experienced much of it directly? No, yet it's definitely noticeable. There's the much discussed tired expert-demanding novice dynamic but there's also an expert-expert dynamic I've observed in which egos are very fragile while simultaneously expecting newcomers, even kids to have robust tolerance for abrasiveness, down-talking and sarcasm. There's a tension there and room for improvement on our part IMHO.

Are people generally sensitive, seeking validation over evidence? Absolutely. Has instant gratification made people more unreasonable? Sure. Yet, are these forces likely to change soon? I think not. For the sake of our ecothermic friends it's better to err on the side of inclusion, grace and humility - that is not to say it is easy. The right thing usually isn't. It's obviously bad for the hobby if people are afraid to ask questions, especially those most prone to mistakes. Dispelling myths and answering basic questions ad nauseam sucks but it is better than suffering frogs - it is easier said than done.

Do I now appreciate the time when the hobby was smaller? Damn right, I loved reptiles and amphibians out of the womb before it was cool but it's not about me or the fad folks on social media. It's about the animals and our responsibility to them. This must come above all else, even frustration with uninformed or willfully ignorant humans. You catch more flies -have more influence- with honey than vinegar. I want this board's knowledge to have more influence relative to the Youtubers. We can't compete with their videos and marketing savvy so we cannot afford to be haughty and exclusive.

If you have the bandwidth to help the fad folks, please go for it!! There is always a place for constructive and honest feedback. However, adding fuel to the fire or turning new folks away from the knowledge here because you had a bad day or have a need to feel smart is selfish and bad for the frogs. How we act is something we as a community have some control over...IME focusing too much on all the things we can't control (fads, trends, malicious fools, profiteering, language etc) is a road to madness.

*rant complete*
I don't think you should feel the need to feel nervous about your post. I think you bring up some very fair points and observations. Socratic's point holds water as well.

DB today is not at all what it once was in terms of participation once upon a time. And perhaps we are collectively to blame in some respects for this, due to elitist behavior/snobbery/haughtiness etc. At points in the past I would argue that this forum was a downright scary place to be for a new hobbyists as there was little margin for ignorance, or alternate methodologies. With that said, as participation has declined, I see a more approachable and patient environment here...at least at first. But as has been pointed out already, many new members are fishing for a response that validates their views or methods, and won't hear reason until they get the response they want. And that to me is frustrating. If it were anecdotal in it's frequency I could look past it as a stubborn individual. But it occurs with such great frequency that it is well...frustrating. And after trying to reason with someone like that repeatedly, over and over, again and again, well sometimes my and other's responses are less sensitively crafted, and more direct and assertive. I don't blame people for putting out these "unwelcoming" responses after trying reason first.

At the end of the day, I can handle ignorance, or misinformed hobbyists. We were all at one point ignorant in this hobby and no doubt along the way received some questionable information. What really grinds my gears are the impulsive ones. People who buy pets without any idea of how to care for them. Sure I'll help them out though. Unfortunately by identifying themselves as impulsive they have almost lost all my respect I might have had for them. That respect can be earned back however, if they show an openness to learning and an open mind.

Sorry for the long winded response. Gotta get back to work
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Old 08-11-2020, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Maybe also, its hard to pretend that just because somebody Wants to Keep an animal, doesn't mean they should, just because they can get it.

Some of us can see its not going to be good from the first few sentences.

For those of us who have seen horrific consequences, to the point where we just wished to God they would have just died faster, and not lingered and suffered in stupidity and neglect extraordinary, unless youve seen what we have seen and took home with us, yeah, we get angry.
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Old 08-11-2020, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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Maybe also, its hard to pretend that just because somebody Wants to Keep an animal, doesn't mean they should, just because they can get it.

Some of us can see its not going to be good from the first few sentences.

For those of us who have seen horrific consequences, to the point where we just wished to God they would have just died faster, and not lingered and suffered in stupidity and neglect extraordinary, unless youve seen what we have seen and took home with us, yeah, we get angry.
Entirely true, but coming out and saying this to people is exactly what gives this forum the reputation that JackReidMarx refers to. It makes us look especially bad when we go to the mat on issues for which there is no strong consensus. I think all we can do is to state what has worked for us, refer people to other threads here and information elsewhere that make the point, and then let others make an informed decision. That is where the bandwidth I was referring to kicks in. All too often people ignore what we tell them. That's when you just have to rely on the fact that we may not have reached the OP but there will be lots more people that come and read and never post, and maybe we can make a difference to them. Bullying people (even if it is only perceived as such) is not going to achieve the desired result - better care for the animals we love. How the message is delivered can be as important as the message itself.

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Old 08-11-2020, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Just being honest.

There is absolutely no way to control the perceptions of people on an online message board.

If more people spoke honestly, with all the candor and flaw of their raw and unrehearsed humanity, maybe then people wuld be so startled by the authenticity, they would actually be stirred by an insight or a warm breeze of empathy.

In the privacy of ones own thoughts, away from the online audience factor, people do think, mull things over, potentially consider another view.
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Old 08-12-2020, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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[snip]

If more people spoke honestly, with all the candor and flaw of their raw and unrehearsed humanity, maybe then people wuld be so startled by the authenticity, they would actually be stirred by an insight or a warm breeze of empathy.

[snip]
While this is possible, it has been my experience (online) since about 1997 that the candor you refer to usually elicits hostility and degrades signal.

Diplomacy and honesty aren't mutually exclusive.

I understand the frustration, but that's when -- having conveyed the information -- I disengage. It's outta my hands.
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