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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2020, 12:50 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Sure, who has disagreed?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2020, 12:56 AM
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Default We need to act, it is up to us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackReidMarx View Post
I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:



It is there more often than I expected, even given my experience in other forums. I would assert DB has a great wealth of passion and expertise that in many ways surpasses other forums I've encountered. Hence I didn't stop at lurking. I've had very positive experiences on this board thanks especially to fishingguy, Socratic, Fahad, and pumilio among others . Great job. At the same time, this high level of expertise can lend itself to a certain abrasive haughtiness and down-talking. Is it a majority of experienced members, or have I experienced much of it directly? No, yet it's definitely noticeable. There's the much discussed tired expert-demanding novice dynamic but there's also an expert-expert dynamic I've observed in which egos are very fragile while simultaneously expecting newcomers, even kids to have robust tolerance for abrasiveness, down-talking and sarcasm. There's a tension there and room for improvement on our part IMHO.

Are people generally sensitive, seeking validation over evidence? Absolutely. Has instant gratification made people more unreasonable? Sure. Yet, are these forces likely to change soon? I think not. For the sake of our ecothermic friends it's better to err on the side of inclusion, grace and humility - that is not to say it is easy. The right thing usually isn't. It's obviously bad for the hobby if people are afraid to ask questions, especially those most prone to mistakes. Dispelling myths and answering basic questions ad nauseam sucks but it is better than suffering frogs - it is easier said than done.

Do I now appreciate the time when the hobby was smaller? Damn right, I loved reptiles and amphibians out of the womb before it was cool but it's not about me or the fad folks on social media. It's about the animals and our responsibility to them. This must come above all else, even frustration with uninformed or willfully ignorant humans. You catch more flies -have more influence- with honey than vinegar. I want this board's knowledge to have more influence relative to the Youtubers. We can't compete with their videos and marketing savvy so we cannot afford to be haughty and exclusive.

If you have the bandwidth to help the fad folks, please go for it!! There is always a place for constructive and honest feedback. However, adding fuel to the fire or turning new folks away from the knowledge here because you had a bad day or have a need to feel smart is selfish and bad for the frogs. How we act is something we as a community have some control over...IME focusing too much on all the things we can't control (fads, trends, malicious fools, profiteering, language etc) is a road to madness.

*rant complete*
I personally have the same perspective. As someone who frequents forums for every animal I even think about keeping, this forum has been the most unenjoyable and unfriendly for a new member. This is coming from someone who joined tortoiseforum.org as a preteen to post my absolutely abhorrent tortoise enclosure for critique, only to receive friendly welcomes and great advice not coated in scorn. I return to that forum and others almost daily for their welcoming atmospheres and active community.

This forum is absolutely a treasure trove of information, experiences, and advice. However, it can be hard to ignore the perceived condescension. Starting messages with “where do I even start?” on posts asking for advice seems to be common, and a good example. Heck, here’s even a choice quote from one of my threads, directed to an issue that had been resolved roughly 30 posts prior.

“An inordinately familiar, yet somehow still rather amusing little shitstorm in a blender. ‘Hears turd plop in, then hears someone hit pulse. Like a dumbass, elects to observe the predictable result.’”

It’s not the honesty of posts that comes across as haughty. Not everything needs to be sugarcoated, and it is absolutely understandable that one would want to get to the point.

It’s phrases, expressions, even accusations, that have no place in a post meant to be helpful, meant to keep a keeper keen on continuing their journey into keeping or improving. It is of course not expected that every group should be devoid of these, as the internet is, of course, a space where opinions are shared freely and in most cases can be shared without regulation, to the extent of rules and guidelines. However, and this may (hopefully) just be my experience, they tend to stick out like a sore thumb.

It’s understandable that one would desire a direct, blunt, or even animus response to a newbie with an improperly set up enclosure with or without frogs, or conditions set to put frogs in the grave, because they care for the frogs in those conditions. But it’s important to remember that it’s not the frog receiving the responses.

Some of the easiest, most low effort ways someone can come across as friendly, helpful, or otherwise humble, is to just include a short compliment or praise before even the longest list of suggestions or corrections, and ensuring that the issue has not been resolved before commenting on it. “Your frogs are very cute!” And “I like what you did with the Pothos” can go a very long way, whether it is truly meant or not, and no one enjoys being told to fill in a water feature 4 times after confirming that it would be removed. You get more fruit flies with apple cider vinegar than than normal white, after all

This is of course not an attack on the forum or it’s members. Heck, I’d say most are great, and it would be hard to find issue with them, but minorities can be deafening. Any focus put on friendliness towards new keepers looking to learn from the great, experienced members on this massive library of irreplaceable info would likely improve this site greatly.


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Last edited by TechnoCheese; 08-12-2020 at 01:12 AM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2020, 01:15 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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Originally Posted by Kmc View Post
Just being honest.

There is absolutely no way to control the perceptions of people on an online message board.
Control no. Educate yes. You can lead a horse to water but....

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Originally Posted by Kmc View Post
If more people spoke honestly, with all the candor and flaw of their raw and unrehearsed humanity, maybe then people wuld be so startled by the authenticity, they would actually be stirred by an insight or a warm breeze of empathy.
Or they may take it as a slap to the face, that we view their perceptions as wrong, and they will fight/argue until they are proven "right". But yes I hope what you say is true. As mentioned by others in previous posts, sometimes reaching someone is all about how the message is delivered.

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In the privacy of ones own thoughts, away from the online audience factor, people do think, mull things over, potentially consider another view.
I hope this is true, which is why I, and I suspect many others on this forum, continue to contribute. That or they go elsewhere to find reinforcement of their perceptions in another group more in line with their views.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2020, 01:29 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

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Originally Posted by TechnoCheese View Post
It’s phrases, expressions, even accusations, that have no place in a post meant to be helpful, meant to keep a keeper keen on continuing their journey into keeping or improving.
TC, I don't think you're wrong. But, frustration will find a way to express itself, even in the most kind-hearted among us. Some of this silliness just gets old.

Also, I don't think that encouraging everyone to 'continue their journey into keeping' is necessarily desirable, to put it mildly. If someone who wasn't willing to put in the slightest bit of effort on their own gets treated harshly and decides frogs aren't for them, that might be the best ending possible.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackReidMarx View Post
I am nervous to post this perspective, but I think it's too important to not say anything. As a newcomer I think I can add to this. Here it goes:



It is there more often than I expected, even given my experience in other forums. I would assert DB has a great wealth of passion and expertise that in many ways surpasses other forums I've encountered. Hence I didn't stop at lurking. I've had very positive experiences on this board thanks especially to fishingguy, Socratic, Fahad, and pumilio among others . Great job. At the same time, this high level of expertise can lend itself to a certain abrasive haughtiness and down-talking. Is it a majority of experienced members, or have I experienced much of it directly? No, yet it's definitely noticeable. There's the much discussed tired expert-demanding novice dynamic but there's also an expert-expert dynamic I've observed in which egos are very fragile while simultaneously expecting newcomers, even kids to have robust tolerance for abrasiveness, down-talking and sarcasm. There's a tension there and room for improvement on our part IMHO.

Are people generally sensitive, seeking validation over evidence? Absolutely. Has instant gratification made people more unreasonable? Sure. Yet, are these forces likely to change soon? I think not. For the sake of our ecothermic friends it's better to err on the side of inclusion, grace and humility - that is not to say it is easy. The right thing usually isn't. It's obviously bad for the hobby if people are afraid to ask questions, especially those most prone to mistakes. Dispelling myths and answering basic questions ad nauseam sucks but it is better than suffering frogs - it is easier said than done.

Do I now appreciate the time when the hobby was smaller? Damn right, I loved reptiles and amphibians out of the womb before it was cool but it's not about me or the fad folks on social media. It's about the animals and our responsibility to them. This must come above all else, even frustration with uninformed or willfully ignorant humans. You catch more flies -have more influence- with honey than vinegar. I want this board's knowledge to have more influence relative to the Youtubers. We can't compete with their videos and marketing savvy so we cannot afford to be haughty and exclusive.

If you have the bandwidth to help the fad folks, please go for it!! There is always a place for constructive and honest feedback. However, adding fuel to the fire or turning new folks away from the knowledge here because you had a bad day or have a need to feel smart is selfish and bad for the frogs. How we act is something we as a community have some control over...IME focusing too much on all the things we can't control (fads, trends, malicious fools, profiteering, language etc) is a road to madness.

*rant complete*
I personally rather ask someone a question who has experience, opposed to going and reading about it. It gives you a chance to get to know someone and its conversation. Nowadays, nobody even wants to have a telephone conversation. Everything has become so impersonal.

And on the whole "Bioactive" topic, I personally hate it when people say an enclosure they are trying to sell is Bioactive, when it really isn't. Most people aren't going to try to look for a springtail or isopod at that very moment.

Just to throw this out there, for anybody in SoCal, in or around LA, DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM THIS GUY IN SUNLAND! HE CLAIMS IS SETUPS ARE BIOACTIVE...AND I ASSURE YOU, THEY 100% ARE NOT!!!!! jUST WANTED TO SPREAD THE WORD. I know there are many honest people out there and its a shame how people will say or do anything to make a quick buck.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:21 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Sometimes too, a member may just not 'like' another member, for whatever reason, so that what they post is seen thru a lens of critical review.

But every person is waaay more dimensional than the slice we experience of them.

It is an odd open plains, these message boards, actually kind of fascinating in its own right.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2020, 04:30 AM
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Default Re: We need to act, it is up to us!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
TC, I don't think you're wrong. But, frustration will find a way to express itself, even in the most kind-hearted among us. Some of this silliness just gets old.

Also, I don't think that encouraging everyone to 'continue their journey into keeping' is necessarily desirable, to put it mildly. If someone who wasn't willing to put in the slightest bit of effort on their own gets treated harshly and decides frogs aren't for them, that might be the best ending possible.

You’re absolutely right there. There is a point, with any living thing, where someone may just not be the right fit for the animal.


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Old 08-12-2020, 06:25 AM
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The Right Fit for many people is to not have any live animal at all that requires specialized care, and all animals require specialized care if your really doing it.

More often than not if someone is shiddy to a frog, they're going to be same with a leopard gecko.

Tolerance for neglect shouldnt be the bar of keeper fitness for what they "pick" yet it is, outstandingly so.

Ive been accused of being an animal rights activist. I have animals so according to the criteria, I dont qualify. Humans in any group thing make me queasy, so no.

Yet in an epiphanic moment one day, during a discussion somewhere else I suddenly realized it wasnt an insult. considering some alternatives.
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Old 08-12-2020, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmc View Post
Just being honest.

There is absolutely no way to control the perceptions of people on an online message board.

If more people spoke honestly, with all the candor and flaw of their raw and unrehearsed humanity, maybe then people wuld be so startled by the authenticity, they would actually be stirred by an insight or a warm breeze of empathy.

In the privacy of ones own thoughts, away from the online audience factor, people do think, mull things over, potentially consider another view.
You seem to be all about the animals, Kmc, and I really respect that about you. You are passionate about trying to better the lives of the frogs that people come to this board to talk and learn about. If that's the case, you (and me and the rest of us) need to stop making it about individual people. None of us should be taking this stuff personally. If our goal really is to improve the way people care for their frogs, we need to pay a lot more attention to the long game and be willing to suck up our own egos in the short run.

I think we are in danger of winning all the battles but losing the war. We need to be a lot less worried about winning arguments and being right and a lot more worried about the impact we have on the hobby. This is where we need to be paying attention to how the message is being delivered. If what is important is making a difference in how people care for animals, then we need to worry about the perceptions of people on an online message board. Yeah, they are going to misconstrue what we say sometimes regardless of how gently we say it, but that's ok.

It's troubling to me that we have this reputation of being jerks (and make no mistake, we do have this reputation, and I feel it's earned). JackReidMarx and TechnoCheese, thanks for your comments. Why would anyone want to come to a place with the reputation that ours has? If they stop coming, what impact are we going to have? I think that we are in danger of being a bunch of old codgers shaking our fists at the storm. I think we are right in the advice we give and right in our philosophy of how we approach animal husbandry. If we behave like a bunch of bullies, however, we are in danger of being right all by ourselves in a room that no one comes to anymore.

So, I think the path forward is to remember that everything we write is read by way more people than the particular person whose question we are answering. That person may not take our advice. However, we can still win because lots of other people are watching and learning. Unfortunately, they also learn the stuff that we don't want to teach. They learn that we are a place where we have to be right and other people have to be wrong and where we think we know better than anyone else. They learn that if they want to talk about something controversial, they will be met with ridicule and dismissal. I would rather be teaching other things than these.

Kmc, I quoted your message, but this is way beyond you, so please don't think I am talking straight at you. Many of us have issues in this area, including me. Your comment just gave me a thin excuse for talking about something that has been on my mind for a long time :-) And, OP, sorry your topic has morphed into something completely different!

Mark
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 08-12-2020, 01:40 PM
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Its Ok! I dont mind.

I think taking the time to unpack ones perspective is a a good thing, the more thorough the better.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
[snip]
So, I think the path forward is to remember that everything we write is read by way more people than the particular person whose question we are answering. That person may not take our advice. However, we can still win because lots of other people are watching and learning. Unfortunately, they also learn the stuff that we don't want to teach. They learn that we are a place where we have to be right and other people have to be wrong and where we think we know better than anyone else. They learn that if they want to talk about something controversial, they will be met with ridicule and dismissal. I would rather be teaching other things than these.

[snip]
I totally understand why a hobby like this engenders passionate responses. Care for the animals in question, significant amounts of money and even more time invested; and it seems communication online is more fraught than it used to be due to the massive impact of social media changing the way people exchange information.

Taking a step back, we're a bunch of weirdos who keep colourful tropical frogs in glass boxes. We should be the best weirdos we can be so the animals that depend on us have good lives, but I think maybe most of us agree there's never a reason to act elitist or make other people feel uncomfortable unless they're actively being rude to you. And even if so, what's it going to accomplish to get in an argument online?

To my knowledge, I've never changed anyone's mind that wasn't open to new information. Either they're open or they're not.

Some of my opinions are unpopular, and because I try to be careful and precise online, I come across as pedantic and long-winded sometimes (in real life I swear like a sailor and I'm a lot more relaxed than Internet Me) -- but I try to stay civil. If not for the other person for my own mental health.

Because I'm not that smart I still get drawn into arguments sometimes, but I avoid it more often than not these days and I'm happier for it.

When I gave that 'bioactive' person all of the information I had as to why they were maybe barking up the wrong tree for colubrid husbandry, it annoyed me when it clearly fell on deaf ears, but I didn't beat a dead horse. You win some, you lose some.

I'm already worried that this forum with its 1,099,792 posts is going to disappear into the ether one day; no need to hasten its demise by unleashing fire and brimstone on people, I guess.

I still remember a curt and dismissive response I got from some smug 'veteran keeper' about 17 years ago, who couldn't understand that I was trying to build up reference points in order to figure out the right questions to ask. He succeeded in looking like an *** and I managed to get what I needed without His Holiness.

Gatekeepers suck; you see a lot of it in any niche hobby.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:27 PM
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I think the core issue being discussed right now is Internet Etiquette.

As has been pointed out we can't see each other, can't read body language or facial expressions. Only our text.

If I was standing physically next to someone having a conversation I can with the movement of one eyebrow tell the other person with perfect understanding that everything I am saying should be ignored as a joke.

That doesn't work on a forum.

This doesn't mean our posts must be sterile, devoid of any emotion or eloquence. So how do we make that happen?

1) We can WRITE our emotions
2) We need to respect our fellow forum goers, this is especially true when they are being super dumb/hardheaded/out right dangerous

Number 2 is I suspect the hard one for many folks, but lets address number 1 first for simplicity sake.

1) The simple inclusion of various emotes can go a LONG way to making people feel welcome and heard. Or let them know you are not trying to be a jerk and have no hard feelings about a subject. This can be a smile face such as or it could be something like a video game emote like my preferred /shrug

It tells people that your own personal feelings are light-hearted and not meant to be 'my way or the highway'.

2) Respecting fellow forum goers can be hard when someone is actively doing something horrible. A couple of things to keep in mind is that a) if they are posting here then they have already decided to seek out information above and beyond whatever they currently posses, making them infinitely better then the person who muddles through something without taking this step, and b) if we turn them away or tell them not to keep a frog (especially one they already own) we are almost certainly not solving a problem and helping a frog but rather sweeping that problem under the rug. If someone has a frog and a tank then they almost certainly have at least 100 dollars invested and quite possibly a lot more. Us telling them things that baldly contradict their own thoughts and opinions is probably not going to convert them to our way of thinking. Instead its more likely they will just stop posting and go away thinking 'DB is just a bunch of jerks'.

A better strategy is to direct them down the right path and provide examples of why it is the better path.

Example: Newbie shows up with a significant water feature in a small viv.

You could say: Get rid of that water feature, its bad for the frogs.

Or you could say: Honestly I worry about that water feature, they are hard to maintain and your frogs do not need them to be happy and healthy. If you are bound and determined to have it then look out for your clean up crew drowning in it, extra supplement powder fowling the water, frog poop fouling the water, substrate leeching and fowling the water, the water itself stinking, the water causing too much humidity which will impair the frogs and your ability to see them, and worst of all frogs getting sick from fowled water. I know a water feature seems like a nice idea but in practice the darn things are hard to deal with and within a few weeks to a few months will look terrible. /shrug just my 2 cents.


In the first example you will get someone arguing with you about a water feature. In the second example they can see where you are coming from and if nothing else, it at least lets them know what to look out for so when the inevitable starts to happen they can be on top of it to correct the issue as opposed to letting it build up towards self destruction.

Additionally if they decide to keep the darn water feature and your prediction comes to fruition, they will in their own mind know that DB told them what to do and the advice was sound. Now they will come back to seek more advice and be even more open to hearing it.

TL;DR - We should be nice to everyone, especially the people who most irritate us because if they are here reading posts they have the potential to be good keepers.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:34 PM
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it could be something like a video game emote like my preferred /shrug
I am not the only user here who has interpreted that as offensively dismissive. Many of us have not the remotest clue what video game culture is like -- likely, most of us who remember adult life pre-internet.
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:53 PM
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I think it is funny how most of us here think we are still fighting this war, while we already lost it a very long time aggo..

We have to be honest with ourself and just look at the basic numbers. Forums or websites like dendroboard and similar information don't reach as much people like instagram, facebook, Youtube and other sources of influence. NOT EVEN CLOSE!


The fight amogst ourselves of how we talk to people here is a never ending disscucion that has absolotely nothing to contribute since all the above reasons already pointed out in this entire disscusion.. Some people need the hard approach, others need a soft approach.. I never done research on what approach works best, have any of you done this?
People who come here and spend the time realy do their own research will take any advice or critisism, this is something older hobbyist also noticed. Or at least I did, so I don't worry about those people..

(back on topic now)

Again, this is not the main reseaon people are scared to come here and start a topic. People don't come here simply because they have much easier acces to other dartfrog related content that requires a lot less reading and preparation.. That is the true root root of evil what this topic is actualy al about..

My advice ; also start using the easy accesible social media platforms and share all the photo's and other content you can produce and want to share. This will reach a lot more people and provide them with the correct information and materials. I personaly always refer to dendroboard and some specific topics posted here when people ask for advice. This helps people who are realy interested in taking care of these special and unique frogs we are blessed to work with on a daily base.

Those who don't listen, already made up their mind a go with the big marketingstrategy and products already trown in their face.. Animal 'keeping' is big buissness, we are simply unable to compete against this or make people aware of this.

This is why I've said before our frogs are luxury products and products need to be sold and consumed. The more the better, at any cost as long as their is profit to be made..

This is simplythe way this world works.
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:21 PM
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I think it is funny how most of us here think we are still fighting this war, while we already lost it a very long time aggo..[snip]
LOL...very good point. I'd take it further and say there was never actually a 'war' -- the world just changed. It was really noticeable for me because I was gone from all of this for about 10 years. I came back and everything had changed drastically.

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[snip] My advice ; also start using the easy accesible social media platforms and share all the photo's and other content you can produce and want to share. This will reach a lot more people and provide them with the correct information and materials. [snip]

I've noticed that you're very good with social media. In my own case I'm only on Instagram these days, and unlikely to find time for anything else at this point in my life. But you're absolutely correct that there was a paradigm shift, which is why I keep bringing up the eventual extinction of this board.

Being able to archive this is a completely different topic for another thread.
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Old 08-12-2020, 06:04 PM
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No. This is not the issue. You are right that there are other, more popular ways to get information. I don't care about those other ways. I am completely disinterested in other forms of social media. This is the place that I choose to spend my time, help people, and learn.

The war is not between the various ways that people try to learn about frogs. The war is against misinformation and mistreating animals. It can be fought on lots of different battle fields. This is one of them and how we fight the war matters.

People still come here and ask questions. All too often, they are treated poorly when they do. This is not acceptable. I can't figure out why treating people well is so controversial for some on this board.

Mark

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Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
I think it is funny how most of us here think we are still fighting this war, while we already lost it a very long time aggo..

We have to be honest with ourself and just look at the basic numbers. Forums or websites like dendroboard and similar information don't reach as much people like instagram, facebook, Youtube and other sources of influence. NOT EVEN CLOSE!


The fight amogst ourselves of how we talk to people here is a never ending disscucion that has absolotely nothing to contribute since all the above reasons already pointed out in this entire disscusion.. Some people need the hard approach, others need a soft approach.. I never done research on what approach works best, have any of you done this?
People who come here and spend the time realy do their own research will take any advice or critisism, this is something older hobbyist also noticed. Or at least I did, so I don't worry about those people..

(back on topic now)

Again, this is not the main reseaon people are scared to come here and start a topic. People don't come here simply because they have much easier acces to other dartfrog related content that requires a lot less reading and preparation.. That is the true root root of evil what this topic is actualy al about..

My advice ; also start using the easy accesible social media platforms and share all the photo's and other content you can produce and want to share. This will reach a lot more people and provide them with the correct information and materials. I personaly always refer to dendroboard and some specific topics posted here when people ask for advice. This helps people who are realy interested in taking care of these special and unique frogs we are blessed to work with on a daily base.

Those who don't listen, already made up their mind a go with the big marketingstrategy and products already trown in their face.. Animal 'keeping' is big buissness, we are simply unable to compete against this or make people aware of this.

This is why I've said before our frogs are luxury products and products need to be sold and consumed. The more the better, at any cost as long as their is profit to be made..

This is simplythe way this world works.
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Old 08-12-2020, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
No. This is not the issue. You are right that there are other, more popular ways to get information. I don't care about those other ways. I am completely disinterested in other forms of social media. This is the place that I choose to spend my time, help people, and learn.

The war is not between the various ways that people try to learn about frogs. The war is against misinformation and mistreating animals. It can be fought on lots of different battle fields. This is one of them and how we fight the war matters.
I agree with both of you because several of these things can be true at once. I prefer Dendroboard but online culture (such as it is) has for the most part moved on. One day even Facebook will be replaced, as unbelievable as that may seem now.

But as Mark has been saying, since we're still here, we should try to play nice or what's really the point of a hobby forum? An interesting archive with a handful of cranky froggers waiting to age out of the hobby? (That's a rhetorical question).

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Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
I can't figure out why treating people well is so controversial for some on this board.

Mark
At best it's fatigue, at worst it's that gatekeeper mentality I mentioned.

Both of which suggest it's a good idea to take a step back and put things in perspective.

It doesn't just chase off new hobbyists. I know a couple of people who've been in this game 20, 30 years and they keep away from any kind of engagement online because they got tired of the fracas. They're probably lurking, reading my posts and laughing at me right now.
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:00 PM
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If you want to go to war with the 'misinformation' spread about animal keeping, you have no other choice than to fight this war on the platforms the people get their information from. Mayebe, just mayebe 0.01% of all the global information on frog keeping is collected from this website, so your fighting your battle in the wrong place if that is what you are trying to do..

'How to treat people' on this particular forum is a totaly different topic than what the OP intented.. If you want to fight this, than you are on the correct website, but not the correct topic. At least that is my opnion..

I 'try' to give up the fight by simply and only showing my way and experience of vivarium building and frog keeping even while I still continue to learn from other hobbyists both new and older topics. Using a lot of photo helps me reach out the community especialy on Instagram. I believe the succes of all social media is based in photo's or video's lately.. Who has the time to read it research these days? So that's a big part of why I decided to join Instagram 6 months aggo.

I find it's a lot more progressive to answer the questions people want to know and ask about the information and photo's I personaly share in the platforms I post on. Since they already have interest in those topics or photo's, it seems easier for them to understand the explaination and reasons in the choices I make. Rather when it's not their topics or build they ask opnions on. I found most people just like to copy what they seen before since they think that's what works.

When people post their own questions and topics, 80-90% they are only looking for confirmation. Not critisism.. No body wants to hear their hard work and effort in putting in a nice water feauture was a mistake and the money spend was trown away.. Especialy since they just did what very influencial people told them to do or buy.. That is exactly how terms like 'BIOACTIVE' become standardized.. It is all just simple marketing scemes..

So I say PREVENT instead of CURE.
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:58 PM
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I prefer Dendroboard but online culture (such as it is) has for the most part moved on. One day even Facebook will be replaced, as unbelievable as that may seem now.
It is funny how something that is, what, 15 years old has such a hold on us that we have a hard time believing it is wasn't created in the Big Bang, or handed down by Moses. Just like the 'stuff on the internet is permanent' nearsighted silliness (this is not a reference to your recent use of this phrase recently, Fahad, because I don't think you were advocating for it, exactly).

I don't use FB except to lurk, but other non-hobby websites I read comments on can get really nasty (I mean sites like Jalopnik -- it is about cars, for Pete's sake). I admit that you catch more flies with honey, but I don't think DB is special in periodic outbursts of passion, and at least we get upset about something that matters; many of the threads that get hot are about more than just how to keep frogs in a box, too.

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Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
People still come here and ask questions. All too often, they are treated poorly when they do. This is not acceptable. I can't figure out why treating people well is so controversial for some on this board.
Even though it sometimes sounds like I'm disagreeing with you on this, Mark, I really appreciate this voice of yours here, and I do not believe I am alone in doing so. I very much hope you continue to do so. Without you injecting this attitude of yours, things would not be even as civil as they are. Thank you.
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Old 08-12-2020, 11:44 PM
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I think everyone on the boarDs should be on the bioactive social media pages helping with questions and letting people know that the vivariums we have been keeping as froggers for decades are all in the same category of glass boxes full of dirt and chlorophyl.



All the people that stumble upon the FB groups for bioactive are essentially being robbed of the decades of experience and information from forums such as this.
No they aren't being robbed. They have found a FB Group. The be all end all of all research and information an omnipotence. They can find DB just as easily as you did but they won't. They're lazy, that's why they are getting all their info from a FB group.
They deserve what they get.

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Old 08-14-2020, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fahad View Post
I prefer Dendroboard but online culture (such as it is) has for the most part moved on. One day even Facebook will be replaced, as unbelievable as that may seem now.
It is funny how something that is, what, 15 years old has such a hold on us that we have a hard time believing it is wasn't created in the Big Bang, or handed down by Moses. Just like the 'stuff on the internet is permanent' nearsighted silliness (this is not a reference to your recent use of this phrase recently, Fahad, because I don't think you were advocating for it, exactly).

I don't use FB except to lurk, but other non-hobby websites I read comments on can get really nasty (I mean sites like Jalopnik -- it is about cars, for Pete's sake). I admit that you catch more flies with honey, but I don't think DB is special in periodic outbursts of passion, and at least we get upset about something that matters; many of the threads that get hot are about more than just how to keep frogs in a box, too.

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Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
People still come here and ask questions. All too often, they are treated poorly when they do. This is not acceptable. I can't figure out why treating people well is so controversial for some on this board.
Even though it sometimes sounds like I'm disagreeing with you on this, Mark, I really appreciate this voice of yours here, and I do not believe I am alone in doing so. I very much hope you continue to do so. Without you injecting this attitude of yours, things would not be even as civil as they are. Thank you. <img src="http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" class="inlineimg" />
Agreed on Jalopnik and all the other boards on what I believe is called the Kinja-verse. The level of snark and outright nastiness is depressing in the comment section.
I remember reefers getting upset over the term "nitrate factory" whenever someone showed off their wet/dry bio-ball/bale sump set up. The bioactive thing has definitely gone overboard when I see or hear about it bioactive kits for desert herp vivs. I could be wrong, maybe it's worked for some people.
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Old 08-14-2020, 05:43 PM
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Its only fair to note though, for every 'rude' response - there seems to be many more One Issue Posters, with an urgent inquiry who gets detailed focus, often from more than one member, who fully apply their energy to help, yet the new questioner never returns with a follow up, or even a simple thank you.
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:23 PM
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Oh, I should go there?

Ha, ha, ha....hahahaha.....ho,ho...he,he....

I'd rather eat three month old fruit fly culture scrapings.
Yeah...I deleted FB for a reason.
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Old 08-16-2020, 12:53 AM
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I'm an IT guy by trade and it's the same way I cringe when people say "The Cloud" like it's something new. It's sales & marketing people that don't know anything re-branding the internet.

"Social Distancing" Needed another catch phrase for that one. Not saying you shouldn't keep space or wear a face mask because how can it hurt. Just the saying drives me crazy.

I get it and the world we now live in makes me want to social distance .
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