Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen! - Dendroboard
Dendroboard

Go Back   Dendroboard > Dart Frogs > General Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Advertise

Support Our Sponsors

facebook

Like Tree49Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 06:47 PM
Pumilo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 10,261
Thanks: 832
Thanked 1,816 Times in 1,320 Posts
Default Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

It's been awhile since I've written anything for dendroboard. Current events present an opportunity to back up a very real scenario.

Is everybody sick of hearing me talk about the creation of a novel pathogen yet? Too bad. I'm going to do it again.

If I wanted to create a novel pathogen, I could do it. I wouldn't even need a laboratory. Here's how simple it would be.
Method one.
Build a vivarium and put multiple species from different parts of the world in it. Supply conditions favorable for keeping these multiple species alive for an extended period of time.
Here's what can happen. Species 1 carries pathogens that it has developed immunities for. Species 2 has not been introduced to that pathogen and has no natural antibodies or immunities. If luck is on on the side of species 2, then the pathogen that species 1 carries will not be able to infect him.
Over time, however, this can still become problematic. Perhaps, even more problematic. You have created an environment in which both species can thrive. Therefore, species 2 is always in close contact with this seemingly harmless pathogen from species 1.
You have created a situation in which our harmless little pathogen can keep reproducing within species 1. The entire time, every new generation has the chance to adapt. Every new generation has the chance to become something that will affect species 2. Come on, we all saw Jurassic Park.
"If there's one thing the history of evolution has taught us, it's that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, it expands to new territories, and crashes through barriers painfully, maybe even dangerously, but, uh, well, there it is. ..."
"Life, uh, finds a way"
So will that pathogen, and who knows what it will become in the process? Are you aware that a virus can pick up any portion of its host's DNA, and Incorporated into its own viral genome? Bacteria also trade genes between each other quite readily.
There it is, friends. We have just created a new viral pathogen. I wonder if we'll get extra credit for the multiple bacterial pathogens we may have also created? What I'm trying to say here is, we have created a novel pathogen. Who knows what other species it could now attack? Could it become as bad as chytrid, wiping out every amphibian it crosses paths with? Could it even become chytrid itself? You better believe we're going to loop back around to that in a while.

"Oh, but Doug", you say, " we've heard you and Ed preach this before, and it all sounds like science fiction."

I'm not done yet. Let's look at another way to create a novel pathogen.
Method 2.
Set up an open air market place. Sell all kinds of weird, exotic meats. You could even sell the meat of the exotic pangolin. Being the worlds only scaled mammal, that should fetch a pretty penny, don't you think? Ideally, you'd want to keep plenty of people crowding through the place at all times. You want to keep sanitary conditions low, and maybe have some bats do an occasional fly by. Really, the more different species you can cram in there, the better your chances.

This, my friends, is covid-19...a novel pathogen.

The latest genetic testing shows that in all probability, covid 19 started from bats in China. The latest genetic testing indicates that the virus spread from bats to the Pangolin.
In the testing of 1000 animals, scientists found a 99% match in the genome sequencing of the virus found in pangolins and in human species.

The creation of a novel pathogen is NOT science fiction. Look around. It's affecting all of us right now. This is affecting everyone you know. The creation of a novel pathogen is nothing to be taken lightly.

I've been away from the Frog hobby for a while now, so perhaps this has changed. Once Upon a Time, the dreaded frog plague known as Chytrid, was theorized to have been created by accident, possibly within our very own frog Hobby, by keeping inappropriate animals together.
The very disease that threatens every frog hobbyist, may have been created by a frog hobbyist.

I will say it again, the creation of a novel pathogen is nothing to be taken lightly.

If you were expecting me to teach you how to mix species, sorry. I do not condone the mixing of animal species from different parts of the world.

It's not a theory anymore, people. Knock it off! Quit mixing species!
Dane, oldlady25715, Gamble and 5 others like this.
__________________
Doug
Questions are not ignorance. Questions are the birth of knowledge.
Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Pumilo For This Useful Post:
Broseph (03-25-2020), DendroVirago (03-28-2020), Gamble (03-30-2020), JBR (03-25-2020), Organics (03-25-2020), Socratic Monologue (03-25-2020)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:12 PM
Scott's Avatar
Mod
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 8,551
Blog Entries: 6
Thanks: 108
Thanked 439 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Welcome back Doug.

s
__________________
Join the Southwest Frog Group FB Page!
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 07:33 PM
Organics's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 107
Thanks: 12
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Arguments against mixing species
1) Can be difficult to properly pair different species if you have limited husbandry experience.
- Weak, implies time is all that is required to achieve success
2) Risk creating a bioweapon
- Strong(if you understand scale & systemic risk), research backed, prophetic, states with certainty there is limited/zero upside and unquantifiable downside.

Great post. I must've missed previous post on this but i hadn't seen this argument before.
Broseph likes this.
__________________
Big Brained & Talebian Posterboy

Ranitomeya Fantastica “True Nominal” 1.1.0
Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 08:20 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

I don't think the hobby needs to worry about that. People have been in contact with animals for as long as the two have been together and whatever will naturally occur has and will.

In the US we have 20 open trades per year (just throwing out a number) with vendors selling animals from the same original breeding sources.

The worlds wild caught animal markets (for eating or local pet trade) have been an ongoing event every day for hundreds or thousands of years.

I think the likeliness that we unleash a killer virus from our tanks is low to none.

I also keep fish and birds. Lots more sources and mixed wild caught specimens in those than frogs.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:15 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,735
Thanks: 81
Thanked 225 Times in 213 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
People have been in contact with animals for as long as the two have been together and whatever will naturally occur has and will.
The point is what can happen artificially; there ain't nothin' natural about the mixing that some keepers do.

Also, on that line of argument ("whatever is going to happen, is going to happen"), a person can justify any atrocity whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
I think the likeliness that we unleash a killer virus from our tanks is low to none.
You caught what Pumilo wrote about the possibility that chytrid was such a pathogen, caused by genetic mixing in captivity, right? That means nothing to you, or what?

BS arguments ("whatever is going to happen...") and "likeliness" claims in the face of a counterexample are both worthless.
Dane and Organics like this.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman

Last edited by Socratic Monologue; 03-25-2020 at 09:18 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:17 PM
Organics's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 107
Thanks: 12
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
Default Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
I don't think the hobby needs to worry about that. People have been in contact with animals for as long as the two have been together and whatever will naturally occur has and will.

In the US we have 20 open trades per year (just throwing out a number) with vendors selling animals from the same original breeding sources.

The worlds wild caught animal markets (for eating or local pet trade) have been an ongoing event every day for hundreds or thousands of years.

I think the likeliness that we unleash a killer virus from our tanks is low to none.

I also keep fish and birds. Lots more sources and mixed wild caught specimens in those than frogs.

Even if likelihood is .001%(non-zero probability)of total ruin(whether for humans(as we see with SARS) or for our frogs(chytrid as pumilo stated may have started from us) given enough time it WILL lead to ruin. See Nassim Taleb’s non-zero probability risk resulting in ruin.

Two domains linear and nonlinear, this is in the nonlinear domain and human intuition is particular poor in assessing risk in this domain.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
Big Brained & Talebian Posterboy

Ranitomeya Fantastica “True Nominal” 1.1.0

Last edited by Organics; 03-25-2020 at 09:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:36 PM
Sage_Exotics's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 13
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default

Great post!

Honestly, I don’t see why people mix species from different part of the world anyway. There’s no benefit for the frogs, and just risk. The minimal benefit for the keeper isn’t worth it. Personally, I don’t think I’d enjoy keeping animals if I wasn’t positive I was providing the best I could for them. Seeing them thrive and knowing they’re safe is so rewarding, I don’t see why anyone would sacrifice that just to mix species.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 09:49 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,735
Thanks: 81
Thanked 225 Times in 213 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Another example: typhoid kills 600,000 people a year, and does it because of genetic recombination:

https://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/1/61.short

Oh, my -- and influenza, from a mixing of pathogens from different species: "Independent assortment between an animal and a human strain of influenza virus during a mixed infection can yield an antigenically novel influenza virus strain capable of infecting humans but carrying animal-strain hemagglutinin and/or neuraminidase surface molecules. This recombinant can infect individuals that are immune to the parent human virus. This mechanism results in an immediate, major antigenic change and is called antigenic shift. Antigenic shifts in influenza virus antigens can give rise to pandemics (worldwide epidemics) of influenza. Such antigenic shifts have occurred relatively frequently during recent history."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK8439/
Organics likes this.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman

Last edited by Socratic Monologue; 03-25-2020 at 09:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 10:17 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

I've never heard that chytrid could have been caused by the hobby. It is a fungus. Frogs live in probably the worst environments around the world and this fungus likely naturally evolved in the wild. The amphibian trade could have spread the disease but it did not start there.

The mixing of species has always been one of personal view and this is where opinions differ. Not only in the amphibian hobby but in almost animal husbandry. Sometimes it's for the health of the animal. Most times it's other motivations.

In birds, some mutations are unhealthy while others get the best of both and is the start of something new.

I'm not one to either advocate for or against mixing as I know every situation has it's own reasons, but I know Heinekenvirus isn't coming out of tanks.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2020, 10:26 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Another example: typhoid kills 600,000 people a year, and does it because of genetic recombination:

https://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/1/61.short

Oh, my -- and influenza, from a mixing of pathogens from different species: "Independent assortment between an animal and a human strain of influenza virus during a mixed infection can yield an antigenically novel influenza virus strain capable of infecting humans but carrying animal-strain hemagglutinin and/or neuraminidase surface molecules. This recombinant can infect individuals that are immune to the parent human virus. This mechanism results in an immediate, major antigenic change and is called antigenic shift. Antigenic shifts in influenza virus antigens can give rise to pandemics (worldwide epidemics) of influenza. Such antigenic shifts have occurred relatively frequently during recent history."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK8439/
Diseases have always been with man and wild. It's the nature of the natural world. Europeans killed natives with their disease when they colonized America. If anything, we should concentrate on protecting our tanks from the outside and not the outside from us.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 01:28 AM
Pumilo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 10,261
Thanks: 832
Thanked 1,816 Times in 1,320 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

He didn't even read the post or he wouldn't have claimed not to know about chytrid.
Some people choose not learn. I'm not going to waste time arguing with them.
I'll bet that's not the reaction you guys expected from me.
Scott and Organics like this.
__________________
Doug
Questions are not ignorance. Questions are the birth of knowledge.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 02:44 AM
Scott's Avatar
Mod
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Tucson, AZ
Posts: 8,551
Blog Entries: 6
Thanks: 108
Thanked 439 Times in 262 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Nah Doug - sooner or later people get tired of arguing with ignorance.

It's a waste of time.

s
Woodswalker likes this.
__________________
Join the Southwest Frog Group FB Page!
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 04:44 PM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
I don't think the hobby needs to worry about that. People have been in contact with animals for as long as the two have been together and whatever will naturally occur has and will.

In the US we have 20 open trades per year (just throwing out a number) with vendors selling animals from the same original breeding sources.

The worlds wild caught animal markets (for eating or local pet trade) have been an ongoing event every day for hundreds or thousands of years.

I think the likeliness that we unleash a killer virus from our tanks is low to none.

I also keep fish and birds. Lots more sources and mixed wild caught specimens in those than frogs.
This has got to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read that deploys decent grammar.

I will isolate only one item - comparing the Wet Markets of "hundreds or thousands of years ago" to the scale and populace density impact of today.

Sure, the filth and hardcore cruelty often for ridiculous purposes are an inherited similarity but to minimize our eras exploding scope in the face of what is happening now, Wow.

Last edited by Kmc; 03-26-2020 at 04:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 06:30 PM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post

with vendors selling animals from the same original breeding sources.
Another untrue "Belief".

Some people prefer the comfort of myopia and mythology to the inconvenience of not getting to do anything they want.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:44 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

And you guys can educate me on the impact mixing species has with regards to a global pandemic. So far I see beauty in man's creations; from canaries to fish to dogs, etc.

The premise of this thread is one of not mixing species because the possibility of creating "a new viral pathogen" with examples of the coronavirus and chytrid.

Covid-19 started from "bats in China". Not Chinese bats bred to Mexican bats at the Saint Louis Zoo whose caretaker accidentally carried the disease home to infect their dog and subsequently spreading it to the general population. It's from the wild.

We now know Chytrid has been isolated to have strongly begun somewhere in Korea. It was present in the wild long before any of us were keeping frogs.

"Theorized" is just a guess and we all have one. Spreading false information or theories becomes fact to those who cannot or do not do their own research.

If you didn't know, there is currently a poultry bird flu (virulent newcastle disease) going on in Southern California right now with quarantine zones more strict than Covid-19 and healthy birds in the area killed by the government to stop the spread. Any species of poultry who contracts the disease will die.

Man did not create this one either by breeding an Asian chicken to a Canadian one.
epiphyte likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:49 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmc View Post
Another untrue "Belief".

Some people prefer the comfort of myopia and mythology to the inconvenience of not getting to do anything they want.
That was intended more as a figure of speech. I was at a reptile show a couple weeks ago and many prior. Lot's of vendors obtain or breed from the same original source when you ask them what bloodline their animals are from.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 07:58 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmc View Post
This has got to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever read that deploys decent grammar.

I will isolate only one item - comparing the Wet Markets of "hundreds or thousands of years ago" to the scale and populace density impact of today.

Sure, the filth and hardcore cruelty often for ridiculous purposes are an inherited similarity but to minimize our eras exploding scope in the face of what is happening now, Wow.
We can look at all the historical plagues of the world and I'm sure none was created by man that couldn't naturally occur, or one that couldn't find it's way.

Quote from Pumelo's post:

"If there's one thing the history of evolution has taught us, it's that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, it expands to new territories, and crashes through barriers painfully, maybe even dangerously, but, uh, well, there it is...."

"Life, uh, finds a way"
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 08:55 PM
Johanovich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Belgium
Posts: 129
Thanks: 9
Thanked 21 Times in 17 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
Covid-19 started from "bats in China". Not Chinese bats bred to Mexican bats at the Saint Louis Zoo whose caretaker accidentally carried the disease home to infect their dog and subsequently spreading it to the general population. It's from the wild.

Man did not create this one either by breeding an Asian chicken to a Canadian one.

We can look at all the historical plagues of the world and I'm sure none was created by man that couldn't naturally occur, or one that couldn't find it's way.
Yes, but it went from wild bats to pangolins to humans. The sole reason this could happen is because there are markets in China with living animals kept close together in stressfull conditions. This caused a lowering of their immune systems, making them susceptible to these kind of viruses. The reason humans then got it is because the air quality in Wuhan is amongst the worst in the world, causing respiratory problems and, again, creating an opportunity for the virus to go from one species to the next.

Nobody said that mixing species would cause new pathogens to occur because they interbred. The fact that they are in close proximity causes the viruses to potentially go from one species to another. And yes these diseases could potentially occur naturally, but what is happening here is that humans are accelerating the process by continued exposure of different species.

Also: nobody said that chytrid and covid-19 are man-made, it was said they possibly originated under man-made circumstances, which is a vastly different statement.
__________________
D auratus panama special, costa rica
E anthonyi, E tricolor
T corticale, M baroni, A dorsalis
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:13 PM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
That was intended more as a figure of speech. I was at a reptile show a couple weeks ago and many prior. Lot's of vendors obtain or breed from the same original source when you ask them what bloodline their animals are from.

Ohh Okay, of course. You asked them and they told you. I mean, its a Reptile Show, so its gotta be true - right!?
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 09:35 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,735
Thanks: 81
Thanked 225 Times in 213 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
"Theorized" is just a guess and we all have one.
Xue, my background is in academia. I can say, conclusively, that to theorize as scientific researchers do is not simply to guess.

Do you have a plan for where you're taking this? It seems that your lashing out has run its course and might simply be better if it ended.

OK?
Johanovich likes this.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 10:26 PM
Pumilo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 10,261
Thanks: 832
Thanked 1,816 Times in 1,320 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
We can look at all the historical plagues of the world and I'm sure none was created by man that couldn't naturally occur, or one that couldn't find it's way.

Quote from Pumelo's post:

"If there's one thing the history of evolution has taught us, it's that life will not be contained. Life breaks free, it expands to new territories, and crashes through barriers painfully, maybe even dangerously, but, uh, well, there it is...."

"Life, uh, finds a way"
Oh my God! He is quoting a movie. I used a line from a very well known movie, to lighten the post a bit. I even said it was from a movie. It's humor. He is using a line from a movie to try and discredit me? Now that is the funniest thing I've seen for weeks!

Seriously though, Sue, if you are going to use my name, spell it right. You don't even have to spell it. Use the quote button.

I wish I could use my favorite line from Dexter. There will be a few imaginatively replaced words, but here it is.

Vince Masuka "That's not opinion. That's science and science is one cold-hearted (person) with a 14-(ounce hammer)"
__________________
Doug
Questions are not ignorance. Questions are the birth of knowledge.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2020, 11:44 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumilo View Post
Oh my God! He is quoting a movie. I used a line from a very well known movie, to lighten the post a bit. I even said it was from a movie. It's humor. He is using a line from a movie to try and discredit me? Now that is the funniest thing I've seen for weeks!

Seriously though, Sue, if you are going to use my name, spell it right. You don't even have to spell it. Use the quote button.

I wish I could use my favorite line from Dexter. There will be a few imaginatively replaced words, but here it is.

Vince Masuka "That's not opinion. That's science and science is one cold-hearted (person) with a 14-(ounce hammer)"
You quoted a movie to use as supporting "evidence" on a possibility that you believe in, and, you do it against with the Dexter quote thinking your opinion is fact. But I'm not a Dexter kinda guy so I'll concede that one to you.

I'm not here to discredit you. I just have a different opinion than you regarding our role in the prevention of a worldwide pandemic.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 12:03 AM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Xue, my background is in academia. I can say, conclusively, that to theorize as scientific researchers do is not simply to guess.

Do you have a plan for where you're taking this? It seems that your lashing out has run its course and might simply be better if it ended.

OK?
Yes, I agree on scientific theories. People also come up with theories that have no supporting evidence and chytrid in particular - I have never heard it could have been from the hobby. Maybe I'm not in the right circle.

I have a long time friend who is a biologist who has worked on the chytrid trail in salamanders and frogs and have never heard of such a thing.

For about 3 years I helped collect specimen. We worked more with salamanders than frogs and I never actually saw a dead frog but I'm well aware of the disease.

I don't intend to take this anywhere other than stating a difference of opinion. This is far from lashing out. Do we not want opposing views to an unfounded philosophy?
epiphyte likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:57 AM
Johanovich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Belgium
Posts: 129
Thanks: 9
Thanked 21 Times in 17 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xue View Post
Yes, I agree on scientific theories. People also come up with theories that have no supporting evidence and chytrid in particular - I have never heard it could have been from the hobby. Maybe I'm not in the right circle.

I have a long time friend who is a biologist who has worked on the chytrid trail in salamanders and frogs and have never heard of such a thing.

For about 3 years I helped collect specimen. We worked more with salamanders than frogs and I never actually saw a dead frog but I'm well aware of the disease.

I don't intend to take this anywhere other than stating a difference of opinion. This is far from lashing out. Do we not want opposing views to an unfounded philosophy?
Chytrid is indeed likely a naturally occuring fungus as far as we know, but there are some things to also take into account here:

African clawed frogs do not experience the same symptoms as most other frogs. Because they were traded across the world as pregnancy tests this likely caused the global spread, or at least had a massive impact on it. Similarly, the more recent spread in SE-Asia is currently thought to have originated from imported american bullfrogs, who are also not very affected by chytrid but do carry it.

This is what pumilio is referring to with the dangers of mixing. If you mix an apparently healthy wild individual that carries a hidden disease with another species, this disease can jump across species. Fungi do not work the same way as viruses (who can easily incorporate new genetic material into their own) but there is still al lot of potential for exchanging genetic material between strains/species.

This also applies to organisms that normally do not cause disease. The skin/gut flora and fauna of a frog from S-America could potentially make a frog from SE-Asia ill because of opportunistic taxa and a lack of proper immune respons (I don't have actual frog examples for this, but opportunistic bacteria and yeasts are a well documented phenomenon. I do have a scientific paper showing that skin bacteria are different in captivity compared to wild specimens).

Furthermore a strain that is nonlethal for species occuring in specific conditions can be extremely deadly to a lot of other species in other environments. The apparent susceptibility of chytrid fungus to temperature points to this being partly the case here.

There is a decent chance that the hobby helped the spread of chytrid across the globe and it may also have caused more deadly strains to appear because it could spread to new hosts. Chytrid has several known nonlethal strains (some of the earlier documented cases of it in the 1800s and early 1900s were nonlethal), yet now we see an extremely lethal form going around the globe.
__________________
D auratus panama special, costa rica
E anthonyi, E tricolor
T corticale, M baroni, A dorsalis

Last edited by Johanovich; 03-27-2020 at 10:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 02:59 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 188
Thanks: 8
Thanked 24 Times in 22 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

I feel like whilst there is a real but extremely minimal risk here, arguing that mixing species could create novel pathogens and comparing it to covid 19 is so hyperbolic that it's likely to be counterproductive. There are much better and simpler arguments against mixing species.
Also if Doug expected everyone to agree wholeheartedly with his post why bother posting it at all? Seems to me it was desgned to draw out opposing opinions from people like Xue and begin a discussion. None of you have enough authority that anyone is just going to blindly accept whatever you say about best practices regardless of any "background in academia" and it seems pointless to get frustrated with people voicing dissenting opinions as bringing them into the discussion must have been the intent of the original post.
I know that some of you were or are also reefkeepers, has anyone addressed Xue's point about community fishkeeping? did/do you all take the same measures to avoid mixing species from different geographical areas of the ocean or different bodies of freshwater? If not, why? Surely the risk of a novel pathogen escaping into the environment from mixed community fishtanks is far greater as often water from changes is poured straight down the drain.
Mixing species of fish from all around the world has been going on for hundreds of years at a scale that dwarfs the tiny niche hobby of keeping dart frogs, which novel pathogens emerged as a result of this?
I'm not arguing in favour of mixing species I'm just genuinely curious.
Anyone who doubts that what Doug outlines is possible at all just needs to google 'novel pathogens zoos" to see that it's something which does occur but I still think there are simpler arguments that are more likely to actually convince people not to mix species though.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 03:05 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 188
Thanks: 8
Thanked 24 Times in 22 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Found some information about problematic fish pathogens actually but I'm still curious about problems arising specifically from the monumental scale of species mixing that occurs in the fishkeeping hobby.

Quote:
Pathogens capable of inciting disease pandemics are a major global worry. Just look at human concerns about antibiotic abuse and the occurrence of MRSA. Look at recent worries about Ebola outbreaks. Even look at the return of diseases that could easily be prevented in humans, were people not so blinkered and scientifically ill informed about vaccines. Disease pandemics are a major fear.

If you’re a newcomer to the hobby, then whatever you think you know about fish farming – forget it. If you have images of clinical facilities where each and every fish is treated like a newborn infant, then it’s back to the drawing board time. Farms are businesses, plain and simple. The goal is to get young fish out of adults as eggs, to hatch them, and to get them up to saleable juveniles as soon as possible, and that means that pretty much anything is on the cards to get them there. Antibiotics are used where necessary (and maybe even where not), and not just the kinds of antibiotics that you or I might have access to via a vet. Different countries have different laws about what can and can’t be used, and in some it’s a bit of a medicine free for all.

Hopefully we all know the dangers of antibiotic abuse, but in case anyone is unsure, here’s a brief recap:

Antibiotics kill things indiscriminately (the very word 'antibiotic' literally translates as ‘against life’). The idea is that they kill bacteria at a lower dose rate than which they kill the host. So if a fish gets ill, you can poison everything in the tank with antibiotics, and the pathogens making the fish ill should die before the fish does, and then you can stop the antibiotics.

However, if you leave a few bacteria behind, they start to get immune, and can build tolerance to the antibiotic. So, the next outbreak of bacteria will be a bit 'harder' to control than the first lot. Repeat the process, leave a few bacteria behind, and they get harder to kill again, until eventually you end up with pathogens that are so resistant to antibiotics that you’d need to use a dose rate so high that you’d kill the host before the pathogen.

That’s the abridged version, anyway.

The problem of course is that unregulated use of antibiotics over in the farming nations could quite feasibly create a strain of bacteria that our own antibiotics have no effect against. With diseased fish coming in, and no ability to cure them, we wouldn’t stand a chance.

But it’s not just bacteria.

There are a few pathogens on the horizon that are cause for concern at this time. In coldwater fish, there are the dreaded illnesses of KHV (Koi herpes virus) and SVC (Spring viraemia of Carp), both of which have the potential to cause massive problems to Cyprinids. Not so long ago, massive wipeouts from the former blighted farms across the world, causing losses on unmentionable scales in both ornamental and food fish culture. Here in the UK, some retailers faced the furious backlash from introducing the disease to consumer’s ponds. One was even driven to bankruptcy over it.

In the tropical world, I am very twitchy about Tetrahymena pyriformis, otherwise known as Guppy disease (though this is unfair as many fish are susceptible). This disease can cause massive mortality at breakneck speeds, especially in farm, wholesale and retail environments. I’m not the only one worried about this particular pathogen, either.

What is so very infuriating is the ‘wait and see’ attitude of some traders. This is not a disease to ignore, and to do so is not just at your own peril, but that of the entire industry.

Last edited by Louis; 03-27-2020 at 03:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 05:41 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanovich View Post
Chytrid is indeed likely a naturally occuring fungus as far as we know, but there are some things to also take into account here:

African clawed frogs do not experience the same symptoms as most other frogs. Because they were traded across the world as pregnancy tests this likely caused the global spread, or at least had a massive impact on it. Similarly, the more recent spread in SE-Asia is currently thought to have originated from imported american bullfrogs, who are also not very affected by chytrid but do carry it.

This is what pumilio is referring to with the dangers of mixing. If you mix an apparently healthy wild individual that carries a hidden disease with another species, this disease can jump across species. Fungi do not work the same way as viruses (who can easily incorporate new genetic material into their own) but there is still al lot of potential for exchanging genetic material between strains/species.

This also applies to organisms that normally do not cause disease. The skin/gut flora and fauna of a frog from S-America could potentially make a frog from SE-Asia ill because of opportunistic taxa and a lack of proper immune respons (I don't have actual frog examples for this, but opportunistic bacteria and yeasts are a well documented phenomenon. I do have a scientific paper showing that skin bacteria are different in captivity compared to wild specimens).

Furthermore a strain that is nonlethal for species occuring in specific conditions can be extremely deadly to a lot of other species in other environments. The apparent susceptibility of chytrid fungus to temperature points to this being partly the case here.

There is a decent chance that the hobby helped the spread of chytrid across the globe and it may also have caused more deadly strains to appear because it could spread to new hosts. Chytrid has several known nonlethal strains (some of the earlier documented cases of it in the 1800s and early 1900s were nonlethal), yet now we see an extremely lethal form going around the globe.
The mixing of animals in the amphibian and reptile hobby are very minimal as far as I have experienced, and again, the likeliness that we start something is not one that I think will happen. Our animals are contained in our homes for the most part, and they themselves are contained inside an enclosure with minimal handling, if any.

If the premise of the conversation was that our hobby could potentially spread diseases then I think we would all agree that we can and possibly may have contributed.

The introduction of non-native species to the local environment is a far more probability in my opinion, like the pythons in Florida and Asian Carp in the Mississippi here in the states.

It's a different conversation.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:02 PM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Most people who keep/acquire fish, amphibians, reptiles are not hobbyists that think about pathogens, the future of the industry, or even the environment.

They are casual enthusiasts who are drawn to the exotic appearance, and mythical low maintenance of herpetofauna.

The internet is a study in itself - a psychodramatic Serengeti of paradoxical input/output.

Many undescribed diseases outside the radar have occurred. Were these self limited by the isolative factor of singular ownership?

A large % of ill herps that reach the treatment tables of exotics-treating practices are treated empirically, because of limited diagnostic equipments (in comparison to human medical facilities) unwillingness of client to spend money, and unknown, yet unstudied etiologies.

The vast array of bodies compared to human medicine, who's doctors must learn Only One Model, is demanding of awe to the Veterinarian that endeavors to treat exotics patients.

The catch 22 of the propagation, wild collection, and distribution of living animals being an industry means the bigger it gets the more risk there is of biological mishap.

Human actions are unlimited and impossible to control. I am truly, truly biting my tongue on this understatement.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:11 PM
Xue Xue is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Posts: 34
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Here is another angle.

Among other things, I do a lot of fishing.

People often use bait from the ocean or other parts of the country/world and toss it in the local lake, for catfish especially. Sometimes they even use animals packaged as food for bait. Lots of Asian markets have wild caught fish and frogs, bugs, etc. packaged foods. I'm sure some of those end up in local bodies of waters and I'm sure if any diseases were on them could have been deposited.

I haven't done this specifically because I don't fish for catfish, but I have used packaged foods from Asia in the ocean. I've also used them to feed my aquarium fish, fresh and salt.
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:28 PM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

I'm not sure what your angle is.

Please explain?

Last edited by Kmc; 03-27-2020 at 06:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:46 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,735
Thanks: 81
Thanked 225 Times in 213 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis View Post
None of you have enough authority that anyone is just going to blindly accept whatever you say about best practices regardless of any "background in academia"
You're quoting me -- witheringly, or it at least comes off as such -- so I'll reply.

That reference to my background was mentioned in order only to establish that I have the experience necessary to speak knowledgeably about the comparison between "theorizing" (which I took to mean 'hypothesis formation') and "just a guess"; I thought that launching into a discussion of the scientific method would have fallen on deaf ears. I made no reference there to best practices. No one in this thread has made a 'best practices' argument from authority, as far as I recall, so your accusation is unjustified.

Nor is anyone requesting that someone accept anything "blindly"; I don't know why you'd make that claim, unless it were to be "hyperbolic". I linked to two sources that show the existence of novel pathogen formation through genetic transfer; if that's not enough evidence to show that such a mechanism exists, I don't know what would be.

This fact (that such a mechanism exists) itself makes it unnecessary to search for examples in the ornamental fish industry. Maybe such examples are known, maybe they are not; it wouldn't prove anything about the current discussion either way. Doug's point was that it is a known mechanism, and that mixing species in captivity is a possible locus for that mixing to occur. That's all. The Covid-19 part was a different argument, "another way" (there's the marker for a shift in argument) -- a way that involves not genetic mixing but species-crossing. This argument is relevant in a discussion of mixing species in vivs, which is I assume why he made that case here.

Also: maybe there are simpler arguments as to why not to mix species. I think there are, too (on a certain reading of 'simpler', anyway), but that does not diminish Doug's argument in the least. We are not here to learn only the simplest truths; we are here to learn all the truths.

That specific background I mentioned: my Master's was in evolutionary theory (evolutionary moral psychology, specifically) and my minor field of study at the PhD level was the philosophy of science. If someone doesn't think that qualifies a person to (as I was doing up there, recall) make a distinction between scientific hypothesis formation and mere guessing (which actually is a completely non-contentious, middle-school-level claim), then I simply don't know what to say.
Dane, Johanovich, Kmc and 1 others like this.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 06:46 PM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

I sense a hint of provocateur in your posts, Xue.

I smell it sharply in your last.

Yes, people blithely use the world around them as their own table and toilet.

Thanks for the reminder, Xue.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-27-2020, 09:48 PM
Pumilo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 10,261
Thanks: 832
Thanked 1,816 Times in 1,320 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

I'm just fine with Xue and Louis posting that the risk is minimum, then defending their stance. Yes, that is exactly what this forum is for. I love it. No, not for the argument. Every time somebody posts, postive or negative, this thread gets top posted again for everybody to see. Every time somebody replies, positive or negative, The "replies" count goes up on the dendroboard home page. Every time the "replies" count goes up, The "views" count goes up. Every time both of these numbers climb, and thread gets top posted, this thread looks more and more interesting to visitors.

I already know that Xue won't change his stance. That doesn't matter. All that matters is that more and more people see this thread.
Plenty of people see the difference between science, and people's limited experience. It doesn't matter how limited or extensive one person's personal experience is. It doesn't matter what one person's opinion is.
Are you ready for this one? It doesn't matter what my opinion is, and it doesn't matter what my experience is.
Science tells a story that cannot be refuted. So please, if you find this utterly ridiculous, keep posting!


In all seriousness, friends, if you have an acquaintance with the attitude, "whatever happens is gonna happen", STAY AWAY FROM THEM! Covid 19 is real, and the attitude that whatever is gonna happen, is gonna happen, is a good way to check yourself into a hospital!!
Stay safe, and stay smart.
__________________
Doug
Questions are not ignorance. Questions are the birth of knowledge.

Last edited by Pumilo; 03-27-2020 at 09:50 PM. Reason: added info
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-28-2020, 12:27 AM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Internet discussions are a mutation of discourse. There are integral elements missing, and an 'audience' peer factor added.

If you present an item that strikes a note of veracity, that causes the 'original doubter' to question their own position, it will, because of the audience factor and human ego, instigate even more heel grinding and defense of premise, even as they read information that they didnt have exposure to before, that privately makes them realize they are wrong.


So its good this is here.

Mechanisms exist. Being responsible means letting that be enough to influence your behaviors.

The world and its life do not belong to your wants.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2020, 12:31 AM
Dr. Manhattan's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 94
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Damn, does this mean I shouldn't have different species of rainbow fish from Australia and New Guinea mixed together ?
Organics likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2020, 12:54 AM
Dr. Manhattan's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 94
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Default

https://www.insider.com/orangutans-a...ium-zoo-2020-4

While we're on the subject.......
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2020, 05:45 AM
Kmc Kmc is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 528
Thanks: 52
Thanked 24 Times in 24 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

What's your point?

There are many zoos that dont even allow other than designated primate keepers anywhere near great apes, their night houses or prep rooms.

This zoo has decided to enable interface of otters and orangutans, as a part of mental enrichment. It is also attractive from a visitors draw standpoint.

But many zoos would go in a different direction. Animals that come in contact with their own waste matter per vehicle of water situ can pose an infectious risk.

This particular zoo has decided or has otherwise taken some measure, to allow interaction.

It is probably very entertaining for the orangs. And same here in the thread.

You've proven no point by adding it, but it did make me smile.
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2020, 06:46 AM
Johanovich's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Belgium
Posts: 129
Thanks: 9
Thanked 21 Times in 17 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmc View Post
What's your point?

There are many zoos that dont even allow other than designated primate keepers anywhere near great apes, their night houses or prep rooms.

This zoo has decided to enable interface of otters and orangutans, as a part of mental enrichment. It is also attractive from a visitors draw standpoint.

But many zoos would go in a different direction. Animals that come in contact with their own waste matter per vehicle of water situ can pose an infectious risk.

This particular zoo has decided or has otherwise taken some measure, to allow interaction.

It is probably very entertaining for the orangs. And same here in the thread.

You've proven no point by adding it, but it did make me smile.

This particular zoo is often frowned upon by most other zoos in Belgium.

It does not particularly care for conservation based breeding programs and it still allows people to feed the animals (leading for example to massively obese ring-tailed makis because they get cookies etc from people). The reason it gets to do this kind of stuff is because it is privately owned and goes more for the sensation based entertainment for attracting more visitors.
__________________
D auratus panama special, costa rica
E anthonyi, E tricolor
T corticale, M baroni, A dorsalis
Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Johanovich For This Useful Post:
Kmc (04-03-2020), Pumilo (04-03-2020), Socratic Monologue (04-03-2020)
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2020, 12:21 PM
Apoplast's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Twin Cities, MN, USA
Posts: 43
Thanks: 13
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

This has been a most interesting discussion thread! Thanks Pumilo for initiating it! The timing and format of the discussion was, of course, very likely to engender a response. I do fear it's blurred the gradients in viral transmission a bit. Mixing species in an enclosure, whether it be frogs or tropical fish is most likely (note: here I am using "likely" as a vernacular statement relating to probability) to wipe out your charges, and far less likely to create a global pandemic in novel lineages. Not impossible of course. At the scale of loss from a single keeper, it may well be that this does happen on the regular with tropical fish. We are in no way setup to track and uncover that in the millions of fish keepers around the world. Same would apply to herps, fwiw.

Creating a global pandemic in humans... Well that, interestingly is the exact same process from the stand point of a virus. You have to clear some hurdles, but the process is the same. You need to be able to get into a new species; that is access. You need to able to evade the immune response (immune responses vary wildly across the tree of life). You need to be able to replicate within the new host. But that of course is the sing point jump, which may happen far more often than we are comfortable thinking about. The last hurdle is that you need to be able to spread between your new hosts. Once you've cleared that, you are free to access a new resource, whether that is sweeping through a hobbyist's collection, or across the sea of humanity that spans the globe.

Engaging ways to think about this form the propensity for wildlife to human end:

https://ensia.com/features/covid-19-...alth-zoonoses/

If you prefer a film here is one from some friends of mine:
https://www.pbs.org/spillover-zika-e.../watch-videos/
Socratic Monologue likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2020, 12:40 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 188
Thanks: 8
Thanked 24 Times in 22 Posts
Default Re: Mixing Species, or Let's create a novel pathogen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Manhattan View Post
Damn, does this mean I shouldn't have different species of rainbow fish from Australia and New Guinea mixed together ?
I'm not in favour of mixing species in vivariums but I'm still genuinely curious about this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
I know that some of you were or are also reefkeepers, has anyone addressed Xue's point about community fishkeeping? did/do you all take the same measures to avoid mixing species from different geographical areas of the ocean or different bodies of freshwater? If not, why? Surely the risk of a novel pathogen escaping into the environment from mixed community fishtanks is far greater as water from changes are often poured straight down the drain.
I've never seen mixing species discussed in the same way on reef or aquarium forums and I know that Pumilio for example was a reefkeeper and coral farmer. Presumably he never kept any community aquariums, never bought or sold any live rock, strictly isolated species from different areas and sterlisied all of the waste water generated before disposing of it but I really want to know if there's a reason why this potentially isn't as much of a concern for fishkeepers or if it's just something that's overlooked given that people have grown used to keeping community aquariums for hundreds of years without, as far as I'm aware, creating any novel pathogens. As of 2012 in the US there were an estimated

Quote:
73 million homes with more than 151.1 million freshwater and 8.61 million saltwater fishes. During the past decade, fishes were one of the fastest growing categories of pets in the U.S., increasing in ownership by more than 20% over the previous decade [1]. Ornamental fishes sold in the country are both bred domestically and imported from abroad [2], [3]. More than 90% of live non-domesticated wildlife imported to the U.S. during the period 2000–2006 was freshwater and marine ornamental fishes, originating largely from Southeast Asia, and totaling ∼1.1 billion individuals. On average, ∼18 thousand shipments and ∼187 million live aquarium fishes were imported annually, 99% of which were intended for commercial sale in the pet industry.
In terms of scale and risk keeping dart frogs seems almost insignificant in comparison and as Pumilio was involved in this trade I'm sure he must have previously addressed this issue.
I am not advocating for mixing species of amphibian. don't mix species. I am genuinely interested in seeing this point addressed though if someone has any specific knowledge.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.