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Old 05-14-2019, 07:50 PM
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Default I'd like an opinion please.

Not to air any 'dirty laundry' here, but I just had my first bad experience purchasing frogs. I purchased a group of frogs and tads from another forum member who had never shipped before. I gave advice on how to ship, etc... The shipping was significantly more than I expected because he used much larger containers than are normally used. I was ok with this, however, because I was just happy to be getting the frogs. Here's where things go awry. He ended up shipping them to the incorrect address (he gave them shipper incorrect zip code). When I found this out, it was too late to be corrected. I didn't want the frogs to perish, so I jumped in the car and drove a 10 hour round trip to pick up the frogs. I feel I'm entitled to a refund on the shipping but the seller feels differently. Before I proceed with other methods to get my money back, any opinions as to whether I'm owed a refund?
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Old 05-14-2019, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

yep. You are entitled to some amount of money back IMO. Off the top of my head I would say 1/2 of the shipping at least and even then you are still very much the nice guy and not asking for too much.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

That is terrible. I feel you are entitled to a refund. service/product paid, service/product received. What you explained falls short of that. I hope they understand this and offer you a full refund.
 
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Here's my opinion:
1. You paid for shipping (overnight shipping I presume), at a premium rate as the seller used larger than normal shipping containers.
2. You provided the seller with the correct address including zip code (correct?)
3. The vendor made a mistake and shipped to the wrong address (mistakes happen I've heard of worse mistakes than this).
4. You (out of concern for the frogs) drove 5 hours each way to pick them up, 10 hours total. I assume you spent at least $75 on gas to do this round trip (not to mention the time spent, etc.).

In my opinion the seller should refund to you whatever your cost of gas was to go pick them up, or the price you paid for shipping.
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Yes, refund of some type.

s
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Old 05-14-2019, 08:53 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

I feel like I have to add that the response to my request for a refund was, "I know you're quite frustrated by my mistake. I would be too, but I'm not a business with an obligation to my customers..."

I guess this can also serve as a word of warning for all of us who ship/receive frogs. You never really know who you're dealing with.
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Old 05-14-2019, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hp192 View Post
I feel like I have to add that the response to my request for a refund was, "I know you're quite frustrated by my mistake. I would be too, but I'm not a business with an obligation to my customers..."

I guess this can also serve as a word of warning for all of us who ship/receive frogs. You never really know who you're dealing with.
If that is the principles they operate under, then you should share their name so that others can avoid this person. If they are doing business, they need to conduct themselves accordingly. That is a disgusting statement.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:40 AM
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If they’re not a business with an obligation to customers, nor are they a business with an obligation of reputation.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:43 AM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

I'm curious: what shipper couldn't correct the zip code? Shipping with someone like SYR, their website catches things like that, I think.

That aside, you paid for shipping to your address. You did not get that, not at all. I think you are entitled to a refund of the entire shipping charges, at the least.

If it were me, I'd make exactly that argument in a PayPal dispute, and see what PP says.
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Old 05-15-2019, 01:56 AM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhylloBro View Post
If that is the principles they operate under, then you should share their name so that others can avoid this person.
Ain't hard to figure out.

Mods, doesn't everyone who posts ads here need a vendor feedback entry?

And, can factual accounts of negative experiences be posted in that thread?
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Old 05-15-2019, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

I don't think this was someone who breeds and sells frogs as a business...they were just moving and looking to sell their frogs before the move.

If you look back through the Frog Classifieds, it's not too hard to figure out who this was.

I appreciate the feedback, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't crazy in wanting a refund.

On a positive note, the frogs are doing well.
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Old 05-15-2019, 03:14 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hp192 View Post
I feel like I have to add that the response to my request for a refund was, "I know you're quite frustrated by my mistake. I would be too, but I'm not a business with an obligation to my customers..."
What a ridiculous thing to say.
Whether it's a hobbyist selling frogs, or someone selling an old couch on craigslist, one does have an obligation to provide the buyer with what they agreed to, and that includes shipping it to the right place. That they aren't doing it as a "business" does not absolve them of all responsibility.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:24 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hp192 View Post
On a positive note, the frogs are doing well.
I'm glad for that. You could've just let the frogs get shipped to their death, but you didn't. A good deed rarely goes unpunished, but that shouldn't stop people from doing them anyway.

I'm still interested in knowing how this could've gotten shipped to the wrong zip code. What shipper was used? The zip code discrepancy should've been caught, and FedEx deliveries, at least, can be rerouted while they're in transit. SYR is known to have intervened successfully in misdelivery situations.

Other potential shippers can benefit from knowing these details.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Yes (now anyhow ... ).

Yes.

And while "It ain't hard to figure out." - I'm not taking the time. If the buyer will confirm this with me I might discuss this seller with the other Mods. I'm not sure they belong on this site.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Ain't hard to figure out.

Mods, doesn't everyone who posts ads here need a vendor feedback entry?

And, can factual accounts of negative experiences be posted in that thread?
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:38 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
I'm glad for that. You could've just let the frogs get shipped to their death, but you didn't. A good deed rarely goes unpunished, but that shouldn't stop people from doing them anyway.

I'm still interested in knowing how this could've gotten shipped to the wrong zip code. What shipper was used? The zip code discrepancy should've been caught, and FedEx deliveries, at least, can be rerouted while they're in transit. SYR is known to have intervened successfully in misdelivery situations.

Other potential shippers can benefit from knowing these details.


Fedex was used. I didn't notice the mistake until the following morning when I checked on their progress using the shipping code. By this point, the frogs were already at main sorting center in Dallas. Fedex's answer was that only the shipper could reroute, so I contacted him. He called Fedex to reroute, but they said that because a signature was required by recipient, they could not reroute, but COULD send back to the shipper. The problem was that this occurred on a Saturday morning and shipper would not receive frogs until Monday. I figured by Monday their status might be 'no bueno' so I made the drive.

It does surprise me that Fedex allowed this package to be sent to a non-existent address. The incorrect zip code that was given was for a town called Joshua, TX., but the street address actually does not exist in Joshua, TX.

So I guess if there are some lessons to be learned:

1) Try to get shipper to text a picture of receipt immediately before sending the package so you can check the address.

2) It definitely seems like it's easier to reroute package if shipper doesn't require a signature on the receiving end.

3) Keep vehicle fully gassed up and pack a lunch in case you need to drive to Timbuktu on a rescue mission.
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

This is a textbook example of why I only like to ship on Mondays and Tuesdays. If there is a problem when you ship early in the week, the worst that happens is that the frogs arrive a day later. You can also usually get Fedex to grab the box wherever it is and take it to the office where it's climate controlled. If a problem happens close to the weekend, it will likely be the next Monday before they can do anything about it AND it's harder to get ahold of someone to put the box in the office.

Sorry you are having all this trouble. This problem is on the seller's part and he should AT LEAST refund the price of shipping. It doesn't matter whether he is a professional or not. It's just the right thing to do.

Mark
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Old 05-15-2019, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Exactly what Mark said. When I heard this issue extended into the weekend, that was my first thought.

s
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:32 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

As long as you provided the address and correct zip code then the fault lies with the shipper and they owe you a full refund on shipping at the least. You could have just let the frogs perish and they would have owed you a refund for everything.


There are somethings in the hobby that are up for interpretation. Like what is an acceptable price, what is an acceptably healthy frog. But just totally getting the shipping address wrong isnt up for interpretation they just screwed up now they gotta make it right.

The idea that they are not a business is false legally, you had a verbal agreement and they failed to honor it, if you have texts then its a written agreement. They agreed to ship to a specific address, they failed to do so, it might not be worth your time but you can absolutely take them to small claims court, and probably be compensated for time and mileage as well as shipping.

There is a feedback forum here so you can leave feedback. There is also a place called the board of inquiry at fauna classifieds to leave feedback. And IMHO it is your duty to leave feedback because if you dont you are leaving other people vulnerable to a dishonorable seller. I got screwed good once by a guy who had good feedback here but bad feedback at faunaclassifieds.
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Thanks for the details, hp192.

FYI for everyone, I believe that shipping live animals through FedEx is prohibited without special arrangement (it is just a FedEx terms of service violation, but still may cause headaches if they refuse your shipment or something). Companies such as Ship Your Reptiles have that arrangement, and getting your FedEx shipping labels through SYR gets you into that arrangement, and gets you into their bulk discount.

I just logged into my SYR account and tried to book a shipment to a known good address, except I juxtaposed the last two digits of the zip. SYR's website showed me a popup that suggested the correct zip code; I could have sent the package to a bunk address, but I would have had to override the site's suggested correction.

SYR also has pages and pages of instructional text and video, and intervenes on your behalf when shipping gets weird.
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Old 05-15-2019, 05:43 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott View Post
Yes (now anyhow ... ).

Yes.

And while "It ain't hard to figure out." - I'm not taking the time. If the buyer will confirm this with me I might discuss this seller with the other Mods. I'm not sure they belong on this site.

DB Mods
OK. I believe that the current seller doesn't have one; I couldn't find it by looking through the seller's past posts.

There is also one other current classified ad whose poster doesn't have a VF thread, though I have no reason at all to think that the seller is anything but upstanding. I'll PM you that info.
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Old 05-15-2019, 09:03 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

jkdub there you go, lol...........................................
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:27 AM
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Default I'd like an opinion please.

Well if any one wants to here my side of the story since my name is out there for everyone to hate. I sold the frogs for $300 and then I did as directed and shipped them priority next day which was $250. $550 total. I know I made a mistake but I spent two hours talking with fedex before the posting person decided to have them held at a place and to go pick them up. I offered a refund and I refunded him $300 but I can not afford to give back $250 because that would be paying him to take my frogs and I donít have that much to give. A $250 loss, 4 breeding adult frogs, 3 frogletts, 7 tadpoles all gone was not something I was willing to do. I did what I could, you all can decide the rest.


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Last edited by jkdub; 05-16-2019 at 03:02 AM.
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:37 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Ah, the devil is in the details. It's a difficult situation, for sure. There is lots to learn on all sides from this story. $250 is absolutely exorbitant for shipping. That must have been a good sized box! I don't usually pay any more than $60 or $70 at most for shipping and that seems like a lot. You can save money by going with Ship Your Reptiles but their packing instructions are not always ideal for amphibians (they are focused on reptiles and fish). For instance, they don't really acknowledge my favorite tool for shipping - Phase 22 packs. In general, you want to use as small containers as possible so that the frogs are a bit easier to secure; and you pay shipping in part based on the dimensions of the package. You want next day by 10:30 shipping and I always prefer to ship to the nearest hub for pickup. It protects you (as the seller) and it protects your frogs. If the buyer insists on having things shipped to their house, you can let them know that it is at their risk, have them take pictures as soon as they open the box, etc. There are lots of really good threads and a sticky or two on shipping (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ge...e-threads.html).

If done right, the stress is pretty low, so make sure you read up on it and ask questions on the board if you aren't confident. I am sorry this situation occurred, but try to keep things in perspective. Sounds like the frogs are in good shape, and we get to talk about how the situation could have been improved so that other folks can avoid a similar situation. jkdub, I appreciate you providing more detail. I hope this situation doesn't sour you on the hobby in general. I am sure that if you choose to ship in the future that it won't go this way and you are always welcome to come and ask questions on the board if it comes up again.

Mark
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Old 05-16-2019, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkdub View Post
Well if any one wants to here my side of the story since my name is out there for everyone to hate. I sold the frogs for $300 and then I did as directed and shipped them priority next day which was $250. $550 total. I know I made a mistake but I spent two hours talking with fedex before the posting person decided to have them held at a place and to go pick them up. I offered a refund and I refunded him $300 but I can not afford to give back $250 because that would be paying him to take my frogs and I donít have that much to give. A $250 loss, 4 breeding adult frogs, 3 frogletts, 7 tadpoles all gone was not something I was willing to do. I did what I could, you all can decide the rest.


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This is the first notification I've had by any means of a refund. Checked paypal and yes, the refund has taken place. I don't think this thread needs any more posts, but there's definitely some good lessons here for purchasers and sellers alike.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
This is a textbook example of why I only like to ship on Mondays and Tuesdays. If there is a problem when you ship early in the week, the worst that happens is that the frogs arrive a day later. You can also usually get Fedex to grab the box wherever it is and take it to the office where it's climate controlled.
Mark
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:00 PM
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Default Re: I'd like an opinion please.

Based on this - I'm closing this thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hp192 View Post
This is the first notification I've had by any means of a refund. Checked paypal and yes, the refund has taken place. I don't think this thread needs any more posts, but there's definitely some good lessons here for purchasers and sellers alike.
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