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Old 01-02-2005, 02:07 AM
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Default Pumilio Import Location Data ("Bruno", "Almir

We now have some location data on the recent pumilio imports. These locations are where the foundation stock were collected. The data is not exact nor do we have geographic coordinates or anything like that. I am not going to make an attempt to name these as new or existing morphs. I will simply provide what I was given and hopefully we can get some discussion going as to where to go from here.

Almirante - basically we were incorrect as they were collected nowhere near Almirante. These were collected "on the road to Chirique Grande". For those that have been there, there is a road to Chririque Grande that ends at the coast. In the ditches along side the road you can (could) find the "Chirique Grande" morph (green with black markings) and in the hills next to the road you find a red pumilio with bluish to gray legs. Not sure if these are identical to the "Man Creek" morph or not. I have only seen one picture of "Man Creek" and that one picture looks very similar to what we have. The location for "Man Creek" is pretty close to Chirique Grande so again, it is possibly the same frog but I'm really not sure. If anyone knows of a site that has more pictures of "Man Creek" pumilio please post it.

Bruno - again, these were collected quite a distance from where "Bruno" are reported so they are most likely not Bruno. There is also a size difference that probably rules Bruno out anyway. These were collected by "Boca del Rio Chirique, where the Chirique River meets the Carribean". These frogs resemble the pictures I've seen of "Chirique Grande" morph but were collected pretty far from Chirique Grande. The spotted, no spotted, green, greenish yellow, etc. were all collected from the same location.

So, thoughts and comments...
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Old 01-02-2005, 03:10 AM
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Great info, so is there any way to be sure?
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Old 01-02-2005, 11:35 AM
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Default Pumilio Location

Robb I understand most of the last 2 importations of the Pumilio have died, any info of any health testing being done on these animals, before or after export? Panama is now going through a chytrid crisis with entire geographic areas of amphibians being wiped out, I would hate to see anyone go through what we had to deal with after the Terribilis imports of '96. I know fecals have been run by some people, it would be great if anyone with any other test data would share that with us.
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Old 01-02-2005, 01:36 PM
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Specifically a skin test would be nice, especially on the bastimentos...although I've heard that even the almirante (or man creek, or whatever) have been coming in rough as well.

Has anyone tried a skin culture? I think this will be my pet project for this semester, the only problem is that I will only be able to identify whether or not the infection is fungal or bacterial. Is there anyone, if I send pics of the culture, who would be able to ID?
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Old 01-02-2005, 02:14 PM
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Kyle - I can't think of anything that would be gained from providing false location data. None of those morphs exist in the US anyway so I don't think there would be any benefit trying to "create" new ones.

Mark - I had one animal (red & blue) from the first shipment tested for Chytrid and it came back negative. I don't have exact numbers on losses from the last 2 shipments but there have been some number of losses in all of the shipments to date. I know one of the last 2 shipments came in very cold and I would attibute a lot of losses to that stress.

It would certainly be helpful to know what, if any, fungal tests have been done by others. We should start a different thread for that as I would like to know peoples thoughts on identification of these animals.
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Old 01-02-2005, 04:42 PM
 
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What are we going to call these "almirante" then? "On the road to Chirique Grande" morph is sure is not practical to use.

SB
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Old 01-02-2005, 05:52 PM
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Well, being that there is already an Almirante morph named because it is found near the "city" of Almirante I would prefer that we not confuse these two separate locations.
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Old 01-03-2005, 05:33 AM
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so what should we begin calling these morphs? I think a new name should begin being used fast, before any more confusion occurs.
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Old 01-03-2005, 07:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Well, being that there is already an Almirante morph named because it is found near the "city" of Almirante I would prefer that we not confuse these two separate locations.
I agree... any city or village close by, that people can adopt the name?

SB
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Old 01-03-2005, 06:50 PM
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I'm thinking Chirique River or Rio Chirique (same thing really) for the greens.

Still not sure about the reds.
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Old 01-03-2005, 11:05 PM
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I was unable to find a better map, but for those of you, like me, who don't know where the different cities are of the area, I found this:



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Old 01-04-2005, 12:17 AM
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Rob,


What are your thoughts regardiong the "red & blue" as" man creek?"....Like the Chiriqui River, there is a great deal of diversity in the morph...there are red with blue feet, red with off white feet, almost solid red, and then diferent variations on the red/blue combo.
I know the collection site issues with the morph. Should these even be labeled as such, or sshould they jsut be called "the panamanian red and blues"...thoughts?
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Old 01-04-2005, 01:15 PM
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Man Creek looks very similar to Almirante..see picture. About a few months ago I saw some pics from a German guy that was there begin 2004. He showed three different colourmorphs. Alle three were found around Chriqui Grande. Near the village, some where further besides the road and more inland. But no place in the neighbourhood to give names...so he called everything Chiriqui Grande while showing the slides. It's not easy to give names but something like Rio Chiriqui is not a bad plan i think. Then you have f.e: Chiriqui village, Chiriqui mountains, Rio Chiriqui.
I have doubts if the imported morphs are Bruno. For what I have understand from the first founder of the "bruno's" they were very small. Nothing to compare to Chriqui Grande...those ones are bigger. So if you see adult frogs of these morphs it should be 'easy' to see the difference I think.


Chriqui Grande:

Chriqui Grande:



man Creek:

picture copyright by T. Ostrowski


Bruno:

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Old 01-04-2005, 05:17 PM
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Rob,
Was there any collection info on the auratus that came in along with the pumilo?
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Old 01-04-2005, 09:51 PM
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Marcus - I think we can definitely say now that the greens are not Bruno. Based on, as you noted, size as well as the location that is about 30 miles south of where the Bruno morph was collected which is towards the top of the peninsula. The greens obviously look very similar to Chirique Grande but they were collected about 30-40 miles east of Chiriqui Grande. I guess it would be possible that this particular pumilio has a range from Chririqui Grande all the way over to Boca del Rio Chiriqui. I think calling these Chiriqui River kind of implies at the very least they are very similar to Chiriqui Grande. It only really matters if ever Chiriqui Grande gets imported then we have to make the decision if they should be kept separate.
The reds do look very much like your picture of Man Creek and the location seems to be in the general area of where the imported frogs are from. Do you have any other photos of these frogs that we can compare to? There is a lot of variation in the population that's been imported and it would be nice to have more than just one picture to make a comparison and decision on.

Will - the problem I see with labeling by color "Panamanian red & blues" is that there are other pumilio from Panama that are red & blue (almirante being one of them) which could be confusing. There are several red & blue/gray pumilio if you look at the two morph guides.
I'm not sure if we can figure out definitively whether or not they are from the same population as the Man Creek. So maybe Chiriqui Reds or something to distinguish the location as Chiriqui Grande but avoids using the CG name that is obviously already in use. If we can get more pix of Man Creek or otherwise determine that they are probably the same population maybe we call them "Man Creek04" to distinguish these from existing "Man Creek"s in the hobby or if "Man Creek" is ever imported.
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Old 01-05-2005, 12:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
I have doubts if the imported morphs are Bruno. For what I have understand from the first founder of the "bruno's" they were very small. Nothing to compare to Chriqui Grande...those ones are bigger. So if you see adult frogs of these morphs it should be 'easy' to see the difference I think.
What kind of size difference? The pair I had were slightly smaller than the "almirante" imports, but pattern-wise looked every bit the bruno.
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Old 01-05-2005, 01:55 AM
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Regardless of size the Bruno were collected 30 or more miles north of where these were found.

To answer another question, I was not given any information on the auratus.
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Old 01-05-2005, 03:12 PM
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Here's another little monkey wrench....I believe that we have at least two different morphs of the "Almirante/Man Creek/whattheheckever" imported into the US recently. This is confirmed since the adults of one of my groups are about half the size of the adults in the other groups. Both groups ("morphs") have now successfully bred and raised froglets, so neither group consists of juveniles. They exhibit quite different colorations as well. The truth is that you can almost never know exactly where a frog was collected unless you speak to the tribesman who personally picked the frog up. I believe it's still too early to tell exactly what we're getting in. Once we get several more importations, I think we'll be able to start putting the pieces together and figuring out where these guys are coming from since we'll have a much larger basis for comparison. It wouldn't hurt if someone who's planning a trip to Panama soon to do a little research and take some pics :wink:
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Old 01-05-2005, 09:58 PM
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Two different morphs? Who did you get your animals from? I have seen a lot of these animals and talked with the importer who has seen all of them and there was no significant difference that would suggest two different morphs. The colors and patterns are variable just like bastis. The exporter has also confirmed that all of the recent imports are descendents from the same location. So unless your animals came from another supplier I can't see them being two different morphs. Has anyone else reported this?
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Old 01-05-2005, 11:16 PM
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I'm at work as I type this, so I can't upload any pics. I'll see what pics I can dig up to give a good comparison. The difference in size is remarkable, literally twice the size of the other group. I received the smaller morphs from Pete at incrediblepets. He isn't importing pumilio anymore, unless he's changed his mind in the past two weeks. The green pumilio that I received from Pete are also very different from the "bruno's" that I've received from other importers.
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Old 01-05-2005, 11:30 PM
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I realize that this is extremely frustrating to those who hold themselves responsible for keeping the morphs straight in the hobby. But how is it absolutely impossible that frogs from locales other than what was mentioned made their way onto the farm?

And I also have spoken with a few dealers that may not be importing any more due to the recent high mortality rate.
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Old 01-05-2005, 11:39 PM
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Yes, please post pictures.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:36 AM
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I don't want to throw a wrench into anything but do we know FOR SURE that the same person/people collected these certain frogs at the same time at the same location(s)? If this is not the case then it is entirely possible that we have a mix of almirante/man creek. One thing that I notice that is odd is some of the pumilio have fairly granulated backs while others are smooth, and it reoccurs too much to just be a coincidence. Although my thoughts could just be random but I thought I'd bring it up since nobody else has. I can't say anything for the Chiriqui because I don't have any, but we all know how different the pumilio color morphs of the same locality can be.
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Old 01-06-2005, 05:59 AM
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These are pretty poor comparison shots, but I guess they'll have to suffice since they are the only ones I have at the moment. The first pic is of a proven female from the smaller-sized group. All of these frogs tend to have black spots running up the backs, eventually fading to an even red, and then returning to a more subdued red. White mottling is present on the undersides of all of these frogs.


The second pic is of a proven female of the larger-sized group. These frogs exhibit a much more uniform dorsal coloration and no white mottling occurs on the ventral sides. All of these individuals lack any black spotting. The difference in size is comparable to that of a French Guiana tinctorius to a Surinam Cobalt.....a huge difference.


Both groups are sexually mature (obviously, since they've been successfully bred). Because of this coupled with the huge differences in size and coloration patterns, I'm inclined to say that they are different morphs.

As far as the farms are concerned, I believe that these are practically just holding facilities until the frogs are ready to be shipped off. Yes, there may be some breeding going on and the project may be legitimate to a point, but the sheer numbers and diversity of the pumilio that are coming in suggests to me that these frogs probably don't originate from the same locales. Thus, I don't believe that we can say that all of the frogs that have red backs and blue legs are from wherever. I wish we could, it would make identification a heck of alot easier.



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Old 01-06-2005, 07:36 AM
 
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Hi Randy,

Would it be possible that the smaller ones are actually original frogs that were collected directly from the wild that the farmer bred to build their number?

It would be interesting to see if the offsprings from the smaller ones grow larger than the parents... ie: approaching the size of the big ones.

I've seen the difference what nutritious food, can make. I have seen small tumbnails produce huge (adult) offsprings.

The first picture also looks like a frog collected from the wild. It has that "rough" look and brighter color. The second looks like a CB frog...

Steven
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Old 01-06-2005, 07:52 AM
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the only problem that I see with that theory (and randy will have to correct me if I'm wrong about this) is that the froglets that he posted in the classified section look like they were bred by the smaller, black spotted morph of "almirantes". If you go check they look like an exact replica of the first frog.
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Old 01-06-2005, 01:07 PM
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I have one with black spotting and a mottled underside that is the same size as all the rest of my group.



I also have individuals that are almost solid orange with just small tan patches on the legs. I have heard there are individuals selling these solid oranges (I have seen ones with almost no leg coloration) as Cayo Nancy.



We can doubt the exporters and the farm all we want. We will never be 100% sure of any of this. If we want to claim morphs based on slight color and size differences we've got probably 6 different morphs of these and 7 or 8 of the Chiriquis. You may be right, maybe you have a mini morph of almirante or man creek. Maybe other people that have these 1/2 size frogs will come forward. All of my frogs and all the frogs that I have seen come in from that farm look to be variations of the same frog.

If you get better comparison pictures please post them.
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Old 01-06-2005, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lydia
I realize that this is extremely frustrating to those who hold themselves responsible for keeping the morphs straight in the hobby...
BTW - I don't hold myself responsible and I hope nobody else is holding me responsible. The only thing we are 100% sure of is that they are Dendrobates pumilio. The rest is a best guess based on the information we have been provided.
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Old 01-06-2005, 01:39 PM
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I think it's just natural variation. They are definitely not Cayo Nancy. I have some pictures somewhere of those forms when I was there, and they are significantly different.
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Old 01-06-2005, 01:47 PM
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That's my point, even though these look different, they are the same frog. And they are definitely not Cayo Nancy.
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Old 01-06-2005, 02:01 PM
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so what is this?




also "Almirante", copyrights T. Ostrowski

@ Lydia,
As far as i know the 'bruno' are max 15mm in size while the "Chriqui Grande" and "Almirante" are bigger. I have seen the cg/al in real and they are larger/bigger then 15 mm. With bigger i mean rounder.
Look at the bruno pics..these animals are not very round.
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Old 01-06-2005, 02:09 PM
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I just hope they don't get broke down into different "morphs" for their various appearance.
Mark W.
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Old 01-06-2005, 02:15 PM
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Exactly, without location information you wouldn't know what that frog was. The only reason I am saying the imports are not Almirante is because we were told the founding stock was collected on the road to Chiriqui Grande which is 40-50 miles southeast of Almirante. There are tons of variable red with blueish legged pumilio, so all we have to go on is location. You obviously cannot base a morph solely on looks.
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Old 01-06-2005, 02:35 PM
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Dont know if this was proposed or not but can a shared data base of pics of these imports be setup for all to see. Keeping each import separated by date and vendor purchased from etc. could be extremely helpful. I can't imagine pics of all animals would go here but representatives of the norm to the extreme would be great.
Just a thought.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:13 PM
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Coloration is an extremely variable trait in darts, BUT size of adults is not. Rob, do the frogs in your collection vary this much as adults? As mentioned before, a Frenchy compared to a Cobalt is huge. I don't house the smaller individuals with the larger, hence I have no side-by-side pics. You're right, Rob, you can't base a frog's identification solely on looks alone. But you also can't expect to trust an importer's interpretation of where so-and-so was collected either. These frogs are wc, plain and simple. This means there are no boundaries from which they could have been collected. Our best identification tools are the ones in which we decifer what characteristics separate different morphs. We can get a good idea of where the frogs originate, but that location must be taken with a grain of salt, since the animals could have been collected 50 miles downstream.

If we're not careful, we're going to start blending lines in the hobby and we'll end up with mutts. Pumilio, yes. But mutts all the same. There's a fine line between what is variation, and what is a significant morphological trait. We need to keep a keen eye out for these differences.

On another note, Kinetic is exactly right, the froglets I posted in the classified section are F1's from the smaller group. F1's from the larger group are expected soon.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:32 PM
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This has been a great thread but I think a little logic 101 needs to be applied. Robb posted some excellent, and all too rare, location data for these imports which was followed by some great discussion with maps about how best to use this new information to classify these frogs. For the first time in my many years in this hobby, I saw froggers trying to group frogs based solely on population level data (location) rather than arguing over the minutia of morphological differences. But then conjecture set in and the morphology arguments emmerged. Basic logic tells us that you can't prove a negative so the question posed about whether the location data is incomplete cannot be proven. I would suggest going back to what reliable data are available, throwing out anything based on conjecture, and deciding how to treat these frogs based on the data rather on second guesses and morphological observations.
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:55 PM
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Does anyone know if there is a frog farm on Bastimentos Isle?
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Old 01-06-2005, 03:56 PM
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Two years ago there wasn't when I was there.
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Old 01-06-2005, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy
Coloration is an extremely variable trait in darts, BUT size of adults is not. Rob, do the frogs in your collection vary this much as adults? ....
Yes, and the pictures posted are both adults.
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