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-   -   Thumbnail 0.2 or 2.0 question (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/351250-thumbnail-0-2-2-0-question.html)

MKF 04-15-2019 01:08 AM

Thumbnail 0.2 or 2.0 question
 
This will be my first foray into frogs and I'm concerned about sex ratios... I have a 12x12x18 tank and I'd like to get a pair of froglets, but what if they end up being 2.0 or 0.2? Will that be a problem? Whether I have a breeding pair or not is not a big deal to me, I just don't want there to be aggression between the two if they're of the same sex. Is there any particular thumbnail species I need to stay away from? Will this not work for any thumbnail species? Would appreciate some insight.

Encyclia 04-15-2019 01:59 PM

Re: Thumbnail 0.2 or 2.0 question
 
Those are good questions :-) Here is my take, but opinions vary on this subject and many times it comes down to individuals rather than being able to generalize across a species or locale. If you just have two frogs, you will either have a pair or two of the same sex (duh...). If you have a pair, you might be able to breed them and that usually means that aggression is not much of an issue. If you have a same-sex pair or either flavor, you don't have the opposite sex in there which can be the catalyst for some of aggression you have probably read about. So, as long as you stick with 2, your odds of having a problem are quite a bit lower (in my experience).

As for which frogs to avoid, my opinion is that the primary reason to steer clear of one species/locale of Ranitomeya vs. others for a first tank is how bold they are. I have some Ranitomeya that I almost never see. That's not a problem for me because I have other tanks that I can see frogs in (including the froglets of the ones I don't see :-) so I don't worry much about it. If it was my only tank, though, and you are always looking into the tank and never seeing the frogs you bought, that might be bad for morale... So, for your first frogs, I would recommend something that is known to be bold. As a data point, I rarely see my True Nominal Fantastica or Reticulata, but I see my Vanzolini all the time. There is not really anything across Ranitomeya that makes one species/locale easier to keep than others, in my experience. Regardless of what you choose, just get your frogs from a reputable source (make sure the breeder has lots of experience and can provide you with line information).

Hope that helps,

Mark

MKF 04-15-2019 04:10 PM

Re: Thumbnail 0.2 or 2.0 question
 
Thanks for the information Mark! Could you help clarify the below for me though? I would think a pair would increase the chance that you wind up with the same sex instead of decrease it, which means the odds of having a problem would increase. A group gives you a chance of getting 1 male and 2 females or the opposite, you still have a better chance of getting opposite sexes if you get a group instead of a pair. Are you saying that groups have a greater chance of aggression because you are guaranteed to have two of the same sex?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Encyclia (Post 3061400)
If you have a same-sex pair or either flavor, you don't have the opposite sex in there which can be the catalyst for some of aggression you have probably read about. So, as long as you stick with 2, your odds of having a problem are quite a bit lower (in my experience).

This is funny to me - everywhere I've read says you never ever see Vanzolini and that they're a super shy frog! I bet it's nice to see them all the time, those are beautiful frogs. I think I'm going to go with Varaderos as my first as I've read the Imitator group can be a bit more bold. I know it really just comes down to the individual frog so we'll see what happens. I would love to get leucs as my first frog but unfortunately I'm limited to a small tank right now, so that's why I'm going with Ranitomeya. Either way, I've done gecko setups before with some pretty shy species and I enjoy the hunt looking for them around the planted tank ;). If I don't see them so often, that's ok. Just as long as they're happy doing their thing in their mini rainforest.

Quote:

As a data point, I rarely see my True Nominal Fantastica or Reticulata, but I see my Vanzolini all the time.
One last question just because I'm curious - I never see anyone keep solitary frogs. Is it a no-no to keep a frog all by itself? I didn't think dart frogs were exactly social by nature, they just get together to breed.

Encyclia 04-15-2019 04:45 PM

Re: Thumbnail 0.2 or 2.0 question
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MKF (Post 3061416)
Thanks for the information Mark! Could you help clarify the below for me though? I would think a pair would increase the chance that you wind up with the same sex instead of decrease it, which means the odds of having a problem would increase. A group gives you a chance of getting 1 male and 2 females or the opposite, you still have a better chance of getting opposite sexes if you get a group instead of a pair. Are you saying that groups have a greater chance of aggression because you are guaranteed to have two of the same sex?

Oh, you were so right to ask for clarification on this. I did a garbage job of explaining it :-) I was saying that 0.1, 1.0, or 1.1 are all combos that are more likely to be ok because, in my experience, it's the third (or more) wheel that causes the trouble. If it is just two frogs in the tank, any of those combos can work. So, if you have a 1.1, there are two frogs that are (hopefully) into each other without interference. The other two combos don't give have the extra female/male that would cause them to fight over a mate. It's having multiple individuals of one gender in the presence of the other gender that you need to watch out for. BTW, one of those combos is probably more likely to cause you trouble (females fight more in Tincs, for instance, while pumilio males are usually the trouble-makers). I don't have a huge amount of experience with this sort of thing, though, because I don't like a lot of aggression in my tanks so I tend to intervene where I can (by removing/replacing frogs of one gender or the other). Does that make more sense?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKF (Post 3061416)
This is funny to me - everywhere I've read says you never ever see Vanzolini and that they're a super shy frog! I bet it's nice to see them all the time, those are beautiful frogs. I think I'm going to go with Varaderos as my first as I've read the Imitator group can be a bit more bold. I know it really just comes down to the individual frog so we'll see what happens. I would love to get leucs as my first frog but unfortunately I'm limited to a small tank right now, so that's why I'm going with Ranitomeya. Either way, I've done gecko setups before with some pretty shy species and I enjoy the hunt looking for them around the planted tank ;). If I don't see them so often, that's ok. Just as long as they're happy doing their thing in their mini rainforest.

Imitators are probably one of the safer bets. I don't keep them, but I have heard other folks say that they are bold. Maybe I have just been lucky with my Vanzos. They are out all the time. You are right that it comes down to individuals. Some people see their auratus all the time. I won't even keep them anymore because I have never seen any auratus I have owned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKF (Post 3061416)
One last question just because I'm curious - I never see anyone keep solitary frogs. Is it a no-no to keep a frog all by itself? I didn't think dart frogs were exactly social by nature, they just get together to breed.

This is a very interesting question. I really think that it comes down to people anthropomorphizing their frogs. The owner figures that they would be unhappy in solitary and therefore their frogs would be, too. I doubt that they have high enough brain function to "feel" this way, but I don't know for sure. I know that logic works on me. I only have one tank with a single frog in it and that's because it is defective and I haven't had the heart to put her down. I have come to really like her and she seems just fine by herself. On the other hand, much of what is interesting in the hobby comes from the behavior of these amazing animals, and you are depriving yourself of watching some of that behavior if you only have a single frog.

Mark

MKF 04-15-2019 10:53 PM

Re: Thumbnail 0.2 or 2.0 question
 
Thanks for the clarification and that's a good point about it being more fun to watch their interactions with each other. I'm still going to try a pair, was just curious about it! Thanks!


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