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-   -   Banded Intermedius Variability (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/general-discussion/31790-banded-intermedius-variability.html)

markpulawski 09-11-2008 12:00 PM

Banded Intermedius Variability
 
I know there are only a limited number of people working with this morph but I was wondering if anyone was seeing variability in the pattern on the Banded Intermedius? I have only seen pictures of frogs that have straight lines crossing the body with no cross patterns. Being a yellow Fantasticus mimic which does have variability with a decent % of animals with the cross and even broken patterns in their banding I was wondering if this showed up with the Intermedius as well.
I know Phil does not post on this board but since he has produced most of the animals available in the US he would have seen the greatest number of offspring and potentially any variability that may have been produced, anyone care to comment on his behalf?
Thanks, Mark

sports_doc 09-11-2008 06:20 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Mark, you always ask interesting questions...

Have 3 from Phil

There is not only variability in the patterns, with some having crosses ect, but also in the orange banding 'intensity'/ color amongst my trio.

Which, btw havent bred successfully in >1yr so dont ask :mad:

I wish I had more pics. And I havent seen anyone else's in person.

:)
Shawn

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_1931.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_6158.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_1895.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...897_edited.jpg

Mywebbedtoes 09-11-2008 06:35 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Yes I have asked before and gotten shot down. Come on Shawn, get them breeding! Your striped Intermedius are beautiful as well.

Devanny 09-11-2008 06:56 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Re these the same as the banded fantasticus?

These are my yellow fants and i cant help but to think they looks just like the banded intermedius...Shawn i envy your frog collection!
http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/q...ellowfant2.jpg

http://i451.photobucket.com/albums/q...ellowfant1.jpg

nburns 09-11-2008 07:11 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
DaVanny Banded intermedius and banded or yellow fantansticus are not the same. Imitators mimic three other species (variabilis, vents and banded fants). So the Banded Intermedius are true Imitators and the Banded or Yellow Fantasticus are true Fantisticus but since one mimics the other there is a lot of confussion.

Mark, great question and I'd love to see some other photos and answers to this question.

Shawn, thanks for sharing and get those things breeding.

Corpus Callosum 09-11-2008 10:19 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nburns (Post 286003)
DaVanny Banded intermedius and banded or yellow fantansticus are not the same.

Also worth mentioning that yellow fantasticus were recently reclassified as their own species, summersi, which is part of the fantasticus complex (which consists of fantasticus, summersi, and benedicta).

nburns 09-11-2008 10:51 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Michael, very interested and thanks for adding that to the discussion, I was not aware of that.

markpulawski 09-11-2008 11:58 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Thanks Michael, great point and great pics Devanny your Summersi are spectacular as are Shawns Intermedius. To Michaels point Mark P referred to all Intermedius as Imitator.
Thanks for the input Shawn I just recieved my 2nd batch of Bandeds and out of 7, 6 are indentical with the straight banding and 1 has a really neat crossed pattern. They are 2 different bloodlines which I am currently keeping seperate but will eventually combine after some growing out (though i am already hearing calling from both groups).
Great frogs, good luck with your Shawn, the only breeding success I have heard with these guys is 100% parent raised. It would be interesting to know if Phil is experiencing the same with his founder group.
mark

markbudde 09-12-2008 12:11 AM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markpulawski (Post 286071)
Great frogs, good luck with your Shawn, the only breeding success I have heard with these guys is 100% parent raised. It would be interesting to know if Phil is experiencing the same with his founder group.
mark

I'm pretty sure Phil pulls all of his tads, but you can always shoot him an email. He's pretty good at responding.
-mark

Mywebbedtoes 09-12-2008 04:02 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
I know this has been explained to me before, but I always forget and don't want to state something as fact if it is not. With the bandeds, they are not really a seperate population from the other more standard Intermedius? I mistaken called bandeds striped one time, and it was explained to me that the banded are just a variation on the regular Intermedius. The striped however were a true seperate population. Is this correct? If the banded is just a variation, are we not simply line breeding by not mixing them with standard Intermedius? Am I way off base.

Regardless, as I work with my Intermedius through ASN, the banded are a frog I would really like to help establish.

EDIT
OK, so now I am more confused. I was on Phil's site and found this, "Sometimes, standard intermedius will give offspring that look like banded intermedius but there is a clear difference in the belly pattern." If you look at the pictures there is a clear difference between the standard and a banded's belly. So I could use some clarification.

sports_doc 09-12-2008 05:14 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
'Banded' are the separate population...

Mywebbedtoes 09-12-2008 05:31 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Ah, I had it backward. Thanks Shawn, even though I know you have explained this too me before :(. So there probably are not to many of the more striped (verticle that is) patterns out there huh? Don't see many. You have a really cool one that is mostly black with and orange strip coming from the head down.

nburns 09-12-2008 06:14 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
I have an intermedius that is basically black but has one small stripe that starts from the rear and goes up about half way up the back. I'll have to post a picture of it when I get some time.

Mywebbedtoes 09-12-2008 06:28 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Please do.

MPepper 09-12-2008 06:36 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Banded imitator are indeed a separate population and they can be found on the south bank of the hualluga river extending an undetermined distance into the Cord. Azul. Immediately on the other side (northbank) of the hualluga you find the imitator people call intermedius. Patterns can be variable on the banded imitator, some are excellent mimics of summersi, with only their call betraying that they are imitator, while others have more "squiggled" or erratic bands. The hualluga is a phenotypical madhouse for imitator, every serious frogger shoud get into the hualluaga canyon atleast once and scratch their heads in wonder... Imitator are distributed throughout the huallaga from the canyon well into the lowlands in Loreto, and there is a lot of variants untill you are into the lowlands of the bajo huallaga where they are predominately the striped ventirmaculata lookalikes

Corpus Callosum 09-12-2008 06:49 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nburns (Post 286045)
Michael, very interested and thanks for adding that to the discussion, I was not aware of that.

Nate, if you want a copy of the paper about the fantasticus/summersi/benedicta complex just send me a PM with your email address.

Don't mean to deviate from the topic of the thread but here is an excerpt from the article about variation among summersi (which is may be of use to the topic if it is true that banded intermedius are imitating summersi):

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason L. Brown, Evan Twomey, Mark Pepper & Manuel Sanchez Rodriguez
The black eye mask invariably covers the tympanum and does not connect with the black on top of the head, but the head-black and eye-black can fuse with the black on the dorsum. Dorsum jet black with one orange cross-band near the sacral region. The cross-band is usually complete but in some individuals is broken medially. Some individuals have longitudinal extensions of the cross-band in line with the vertebrae, which can extend up the back, or posteriorly connecting with the orange bands of the hind limbs. The dorsal surface of the foot is usually half orange and half black; toes can be either orange or black. Dorsal surfaces of the hands are both orange and black, fingers are usually either all orange or all black. The underside of the head is orange; most individuals have two well-defined black gular spots laterally, in some individuals these spots are medially fused. Most individuals in the type series possess a black bar on the anterior surface of the snout between the nares.

More info in the article if interested.. check it out.

rozdaboff 09-12-2008 11:11 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markpulawski (Post 286071)
The only breeding success I have heard with these guys is 100% parent raised. It would be interesting to know if Phil is experiencing the same with his founder group.
mark

I just wanted to add my experience to support Mark's comment (which I think is at least partly based on conversations we have had).

All of my successful rearing experiences have been with tadpoles deposited and raised by the parents. Before leaving the tadpoles alone, I was pulling eggs and raising them artificially. This was met with high tad mortality. I did successfully morph a few froglets, but all failed to thrive and died within a few weeks or morphing. Leaving the tadpoles in the tank was actually an accident - as I thought the group had stopped breeding. But, I found a froglet in the tank.... The tank raised froglets have shown very rapid growth within the tank.

It is entirely possible that the high mortality experienced with early eggs/tadpoles was due to the fact that they were the first eggs produced by the group. To really verify this, I should pull some current eggs and see if I have the same difficulties with these tads. But, the group is doing their job well enough right now - so I will let them do what they are naturally programmed to do.

PLEASE - do not bombard me with requests for Bandeds. I am not keeping a 'waiting list' per se for the offspring. If I have some available, I will post them to the classifieds. I understand that a lot of people are looking for them - but I know I won't remember who asked, and I don't want to make anyone upset.

Oz

rozdaboff 09-12-2008 11:13 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
And as for the comparison between Yellow Fants (R. summersi) and Banded Intermedius - while they may look similar - their behaviors are very different.

At first I thought that the claims of boldness about the Bandeds were a bit exaggerated. But once they started breeding, they are one of the boldest frogs I own (on par with my orange bastis, solarte and azureus).

EricM 09-13-2008 03:05 AM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
My group of bandeds was imported from Europe before Mark Pepper got Understory off the ground. My group did not come from the same source as Phils and not even from the same country in Europe.

I have a banded frog with a yellow stripe all the way down the back of the frog, the broken pattern looks like a 6 pack. This frog is the dominant male and has produced both fully banded froglets and ones with the 6 pack look on the back. I also have a fully banded male and female that have produced a frog with a curved stripe coming up from the vent and crossing at the shoulder.

Originally I got two groups and lost many so I had two males in one tank and a female in the other tank. After a year of quarantine I mixed the 3 frogs and about 6 months later got an egg, one egg which didn't make it to hatching. A few months later I found a tad in the tank. Probably lost 12 or more froglets due to artificially raising them, very few morphed out with this method. Of the few frogs that did make it none lived longer than a month or two out of the water. They would do ok and then just start losing weight and waste away, even raised individually. I like to pull tads with back legs so they get a good dose of mom's home cooking, which I think produces better frogs. Even those frogs well underway failed to thrive. Over the last year I have left the tads in the tank and let the parents raise them. The ones that have climbed out of the water have done well, only one I know of died in the tank, and it was a runt, so I wasn't too surprised.

There are two film canisters in the substrate along the left wall towards the back of the tank, this is where all the froglets have come from. There is also an 8 oz cup put into the substrate at a 45 degree angle which serves as a water bowl. Surprisingly the frogs have never deposited a tad in the cup. I would have lost a bet on that one.

I have a group of intermedius from the Huallaga Valley, from the same importation, and they are very similar in care but I have had much better luck in artificially rearing the tads.

The banded group is VERY BOLD, an understatement. Even the babies could care less if you move back and forth in front of the tank, no dashing for cover or freaking out. The intermedius group is very much the same boldness but the F1s from these intermedius are skiddish in the traditional way most thumbs are, speaking of intermedius/imitator,uakarii,nominant fants, etc. As opposed to run for your life thumbs like lamasi and panguana morphs.

I have not seen any aggression with the banded group but the other group the females brawl before breeding, the dominant one will get on top of the others and try and push them into the ground by rocking back and forth on her. This usually goes on for a few days and then stops. I've seen it come and go over the few years just by being in the frogroom.

I would also like to discourage being bombarded with requests for these frogs. I don't puppy mill frogs or "push them" to breed, instead I like to have the parents do as much as possible in the rearing process. I do plan to put the offspring out in capable hands that have been proven and are in it for the long haul.

Hope the info is helpful
Eric

sports_doc 09-14-2008 12:56 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Just for comparison I do have a few photos of 'standard' intermedius with odd patterns that are nicely similar to Y-fants, and Banded intermedius.

Here are a few:
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_6756.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_6751.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...717_edited.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_4566.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_4525.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_4370.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...edintermed.jpg



* I bet some of those would have thrown you off. Especially the last one....they dont breed true [although in true line breeding manner they do throw more 'like' patterns when bred together]....again those are all 'regular' intermedius from parents that look like this -->



http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a1...c/IMG_5016.jpg

one more reason why we shouldnt label frogs on looks alone [ie: pumilio threads]

Shawn

Mywebbedtoes 09-15-2008 02:29 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Let me say I am ver pleased to hear that there is success with the bandeds. I am also very pleased they are in capable hands. I hope you all do well with them, and the same goes for the lucky ones who might receive these frogs from you. I will be very happy when they are well established through TWI/ASN. Intermedius are in my opinion one of the most outstanding frogs we have in the hobby.

I have an Intermedius, via Shawn Harrington, with the 6 pack look, it is one of my favorites.

markpulawski 09-17-2008 05:51 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Couple of questions for you lucky breeders out there, have you seen male/male or female/female aggression? And where are the egg deposition sites, film canisters, glass..etc...?
thanks, Mark

rozdaboff 09-17-2008 06:04 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
I acquired my group as froglets and raised them together. They turned out to be what I believe is 1.2. There has never been any aggression. When the male calls from the tad deposition sites - all 3 frogs cluster around the film canister.

I have never noticed eggs laid on/in the film canisters. Brom leaves and philiodendron leaves are the preferred place for my trio to lay. The tads are then transported to film canisters angled severely downward (not exactly up and down, but close). There doesn't seem to be a color preference for my group.

markpulawski 09-17-2008 08:35 PM

Re: Banded Intermedius Variability
 
Thanks, I have plenty of both leaves in their tank but my film canisters are on their sides to also act as laying sites, guess i better turn a few up. The calling male you sent me has been following a couple of frogs around, not sure if he is establishing his dominance or just being sexiful.


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