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Old 10-26-2004, 09:19 PM
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Default Raising multiple vent tadpoles

Well I know that they can be cannibalistic, but was wondering it a half a 10 gallon tank with a whisper filter, heater, javamoss and some almond leaves can provide a good environment for them. I have 3 whos front legs should pop in about 2 weeks and 6 that just hatched from eggs. I know having the larger ones in with the smaller ones isnt a good idea, but to raise 6 tads of the same age together might work. Has anyone had any sucess or disasterous results from this method.

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Rob
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Old 10-26-2004, 10:27 PM
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My take on what I've heard... is that the middle 1/3rd of their development would be a no no to keep them together. Probably a little more than that.

I always keep them together for the first month or 6 weeks. Then I split them up at that point. I don't put them back together after that - but once you see the front legs developing (you can tell by how the skin looks up towards the front) I think you're fairly safe for putting them together.

I'm not sure how late they loose their jawbone teeth though.

s
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:35 PM
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I have raised up vents in glass fingerbowls that were smaller than 5 gallons and had no problems. If they are just starting to get their front legs and it is only a few then it shouldn't be a problem. However, they are one species that is known to emit growth inhibitors. At what stage do they do this and how often do they do so would be an great question to have answered. There is always some risk. I would make sure to put in a lot of java- for hiding- as you may have better success this way.

Justin
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:49 PM
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The next clutch of eggs that hatches ( about 6 ) I will try raising all of them together in a 5 gallon tank with a small filter, plenty of hiding spots and see what happens. Right now the 3 larger ones in the ten gallon are doing fine, I havent noticed any of them chomping on each other or any other bodily damage. With the amount of eggs that vents produce I am willing to give this a shot.

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Old 10-27-2004, 02:05 PM
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I have had had quite a bit of experience raising vents and do to their extremely high egg production, I have tried many different ways to raise groups of tadpoles together. The problem that I have encountered is not cannibalism but rather stunted growth in the majority of the developing tadpoles. I'm no biologist but I seem to remember hearing that some tads secrete a substance into the water that will stunt the growth of other tadpoles. Maybe using a filter will eliminate this problem.

-Blake
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:08 PM
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Like Scott, I keep mine together (at least clutch mates) for the first several weeks.

I have also experimented (not well documneted and not scientific at all) with keeping them together as cutchmates in very small containers (baby food jars), small containers (about one pint, horizontal arrangement) and larger (2.5 gallon aquarium) as well as baby food jars housing single tadpoles.

The baby food containers usually housed a pair of tadpoles and most of the time, only one ended up occupying it, although there were a few incidents where two would make it. I would keep one or two pieces of oak leaves in with the tadpoles.

The pint sized containers faired better, as an entire clutch would be kept here. I would move out the bigger tadpoles and keep the smaller ones together, so typically I would have three, sometime four growing together. There would be incidents of cannibalism, but I would also morph out more than one from a single container. I would keep several pieces of oak leaves in with the tadpoles.

The 2.5 gallon aquarium probably had cannibalism, but I would use this to house 'overflow' tadpoles. Lots of oak leaves and some daphnia in here. This also had an airstone in it.

The single tadpoles in baby food jars would sometimes have very slow developing (or just very small) tadpoles. Some of these would not morph out. I wonder if these would not be the tadpoles that might be cannibalized in a group setting?

Observing these in the wild in Ecuador, would always see single tadpoles in bromeliad axils. I did not rip apart the bromeliad axil to make sure there was only one tadpoles. Typically I would shine a flashlight into an axil once I was close enough to have a good view (so as not to spook things with the light before I was close enough to make a good observation). Anyhow, I wold often find tadpoles, resting head towards the outside of the bromeliad, near the surface. Once the light was shone on them the would turn and bee line it to the center of the axil, out of sight. The sample set for these observations is tiny (two very large bromeliads), one occupied with what I believe to be 1.1 and the other with 1.2 or 2.1. Interestingly, the vents were always together in the same bromeliad axil.

Yuri
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:09 PM
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Anyone tried using carbon in the water to help remove or neutralize these chemicals they release? Just a thought.

Paul
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Old 10-27-2004, 10:46 PM
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hey Rob this is from Tincs.com

Larval rearing

We rear our tadpoles in a fairly unique system, (see our cool gadgets page) described to us by Todd Kelly and Christine Hanson from a setup they observed at the Baltimore Zoo and Aquarium. We modified it from there to suit our work habits. We house our ventrimaculatus tads in individual containers, and all these individual containers are sunk into larger volumes of water, with a constant and adequate food source. This means that they take longer to come out of the water, but are larger as a general rule, and seem much hardier. One of the problems with this method that we noticed with our other tadpoles is that some grow larger, faster than their siblings, while others stay smaller for far longer periods of time. (16 weeks out of the water on up to 28 weeks out of the water.) We learned from Christine that the tadpoles release a chemical that will stunt the growth of the other tadpoles in the water with it; this gives the tadpole a "leg up" if you will over the others in the water, allowing it to get the best food and be out of the water faster. We have semi-solved this with a minimal amount of work on our part by setting up a misting system that overflows the containers into an exit point that is flushed out of the frog room. Generally, about twenty gallons of water a day is replaced.

We feed using ED's flymeat tadpole powder, as previously mentioned. We do not use anything else for the vents. I am absolutely certain about cannibalism at this point with this species; They will rip each other to pieces if given the chance; don't ever let anyone tell you different - I have experience on my side on this one after more than one thousand vent tads, and lots and lots of experiments with things like this. Trust me, 95% of the time, ten will turn into two, which will later turn into one real, real fast. Consider yourself duly warned.
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Old 10-29-2004, 02:02 AM
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Tamamizu Frogroom page shows that he rears them together...Check it out looks fairly good.
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