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Old 02-02-2008, 12:11 AM
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Default How do you raise pumilio froglets? Survey

As a shootoff from Rich's poll on breeding pumilio here, I wanted to get an idea on how people that are working with pumilio are raising them. So I have listed a number of questions. If you have experience breeding pumilio, and are willing to participate - please answer honestly and with as much info as possible. Also - if you can think of any other pertinent questions - please post them - and I will add them to the list. (You can copy and paste the code from the bottom of the post to use as a template)

When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.):
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?:
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:
How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?:
What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?:
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?:
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:
Any additional comments:



Code:
When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.):
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?:
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:
How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?:
What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?:
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?:
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:
Any additional comments:
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Old 02-02-2008, 12:35 AM
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I will start this off - although I am certainly not the model to follow given my poor performance...

When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: Usually as soon as I find them.

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): Froglets are housed individually in sterilite shoebox sized containers. In the past I have tried several substrate methods. Initial froglets were raised on LFS with leaf litter. I then switched over to a coco/peat based substrate, covered with LFS, and then covered with leaf litter. More recently, I have used a coco husk type substrate, covered with leaf litter. I am also running a test container containing Matt M's clay-based calcium substrate covered with leaf litter. Leaf litter is generally either magnolia, live oak, or a mix of the two.

What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: Froglets are kept on lower racks on my shelving system in my frogroom. Temps vary slightly by the season - but are usually in the low-mid 70s - although they can drop into the upper 60s during the winter.

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: Froglet containers are heavily seeded with a variety of springtails. Microfauna is allowed to establish for a few weeks before froglets are added. Mites are also a regular inhabitant of the froglet containers. After a week or so in the container - froglets are offered dusted melanogaster (stunted turkish gliders or golden delicious). Dusting is RepCal with D3 and Herptivite at each feeding - and feeding is done ~3 days a week. Once a week, flies are also dusted with a small amount of Dendrocare and Naturose. I have only been using the dendrocare for about 4 months. The parents are fed in a similar fashion, with the occasional supplementation of FF larvae and RFB larvae.

Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?: Calcium gluconate (11.5% in ARS) is applied topically (1-2 drops) once a week.

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method ?: ~5 (to at least 6 months of age)

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: 80%

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: 32% (2 pairs)/ 68% (4 pairs)

For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?: One group of F1 breeders have demonstrated 100% froglet mortality (~12 froglets morphed). Another pair of CB breeders have produced 3 froglets - with 1 froglet still going at 6 months, another froglet growing up but showing signs of seizing, and another froglet that died at about 1 month of age.

Any additional comments: Majority of froglets exhibit generalized seizures beginning anywhere from 1 week of age, up to 4 months of age - with the average being ~2 months. Given the supplementation of calcium - I have a feeling that the deficiency is in Vit. D3. I am planning on supplying UVB to froglets to see if that helps (please PM me if you know of sources for solacryl).

I have/had the most success with the first round of froglets from WC parents. Additional rounds of froglet production always seem to come out of the broms smaller, and exhibit the aforementioned side effects. This leads me to believe that there is something missing in the nutritional intake of my breeders.


Update --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9/12/08--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The past half year or so has been incredibly busy, and my frogs have been receiving less attention. In regards to the pumilio - this has been a great advantage. I have changed a number of things in my husbandry for pumilio that may or may not have had an effect of the survival of offspring. Things that I have changed included:

1) Leaving offspring in the viv with the parents until they are nearly 1/2 grown. I initially felt that this would not help much. When leaving young pumilio in the tanks, the apparent microfauna populations within the tanks seemed to drop to nothing. I felt that my froglet containers had more microfauna, and would therefore be better. I was wrong. Froglets left in the tank grew faster, didn't exhibit seizures, and for the most part were very healthy upon being pulled. I have noticed that if I pull the offspring too early though, they are more likely to start to show signs of presumed calcium deficiency (seizures, "rickets-like" changes to limbs) in a short time-period. Froglets that look completely fine in the viv, show the changes and seizures in a matter of weeks when pulled. This may have something to do with stress as well, as frogs that were completely healthy and absent of signs of seizure began seizing following shipping. Why the froglets do better in the tank I don't know, but it is reproducible enough for me to think there is really something to it.

2) I really cut back on my Naturose usage. The onset of pumilio offspring problems happened when I started using more Naturose (in my FF medium, dusting). But - I think was just a confounding variable. I had more pumilio breeding when I was using Naturose than before I was. I still use it less than I used to, but not so much because I am worried it is having a negative effect on pumilio.

3) I installed visual barriers (black posterboard) between adjacent pumilio enclosures so that breeders could not see other pumilio. I like to think this had an effect. In talking with a couple fellow froggers, it became obvious that as pumilio invest so much energy into raising offspring, if they see other frogs in the immediate area, they may not feed as often in the event that they are feeding tads from another breeding pair of frogs. While this makes sense logically, I don't know if it is true. But, it is fun to believe

4) I stopped using LFS as a base for my pumilio rearing containers. I believe that Rich had mentioned that he read somewhere once that pumilio froglets didn't do as well on sphagnum. Since I was not having great success with a LFS base and a nice layer of leaf litter, I switched over to coco-chip bedding with leaf litter. I think this supports microfauna growth more, but as I am leaving the froglets in the tank longer, I can't really comment on the usefulness of this change.

So - in short, for me, leaving froglets in the tank longer really helped with my success rate. But - as this thread details, there are a lot of different ways that this works for other people. What works for some doesn't work for others and vice-versa.

One thing that I really want to experiment with (but will require a redesign of my setup and some time and $$$) is to offer UVB to pumilio froglets. The "rickets-like" changes that appear in the forearm of the offspring (enlarged distal radius/ulna and carpus) and fused toes seems to support that a lack of calcium (or in my opinion - more likely a lack of Vitamin D3) play a role in the problem.

Last edited by rozdaboff; 09-13-2008 at 12:05 AM. Reason: Updated
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:00 AM
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When do you pull froglets?: I've tried both leaving froglets in the tank until they reached subadult size, and pulling them as soon as I saw them.


Froglet setup: I've tried both 1 gallon sterilte and 2.5 gallon glass tanks, all with coco fiber covered with LFS. All have had leaf litter and live plants (pothos or creeping fig clippings). Lighting is 12 hours on, either a compact fluorescent or fluorescent tube. Misting is only to keep the substrate moist.


Food: Tanks are loaded with springtails, and melanogasters are offered from day 1 at least 3 times weekly. Dusting alternates with the rest of the collection. Each melanogaster meal is dusted with RepCal w D3, Herptivite, or Dendrocare. I tried jewel wasps for one group of froglets (Rio/Cristobal), but with little success.

additional supplements: i've tried weekly drops of calcium gluconate, again in only one group of froglets.

froglets successfully morphed reared: 0

average mortality: 100% (I do have one basti froglet and one Rio/Cristobal froglet doing OK now, but the "4 month wall" is coming up)

WC or CB: all of my breeding pums are WC. I have 1.1 red bastis and 1.2 rio/cristobal
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Old 02-02-2008, 05:59 PM
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What about average temperatures?

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Old 02-03-2008, 02:14 AM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: I typically leave them in until they are getting too close to the adults for me to tell the difference. I would rather not disturb them until that point.

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): Froglets get the same setup as adults. Usually a smaller tank ... 10 vert or 12x12x18 Exo. I used LECA topped with a layer of moss. Above the moss i use ABG mix and/or peat, charcoal and compost (with and from the springtail cultures) and finally a layer of oak leaves on top. I like around 50% ground cover and 2-3 broms mounted on back.

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: I feed springs and whatever is bouncing around in my sweater box full of compost. Until they move to flies I only feed them 3 times a week or so...by putting the compost directly in the springs are around for a while. Once they go to flies they are fed every other day. No supplements are used until they move to flies and the vit/cal regimen I use with my adults.

Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?: Nope....nothing special here.

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?: Pumilio...around 15-20 (3-4 morphs)

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: Due to the way I let them do their own thing in the tank I probably lose some I never knew where there. Of those I found I have only lost one and that was to spindly leg.

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: Hmmm....75%/25% but I haven't been working with wild caught very long.

For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?: No

Any additional comments: I believe we are still perfecting how to keep this species. Additionally there are definitely differences in preferences and conditions for different morphs. Having had the opportunity to visit Costa Rica and Panama and see many of these morphs in person I try and replicate the environments where I observed them. My experience has been there are certain things that have been learned by the community via trial and error that you can certainly learn from that make this a species which is not as difficult as it was previously considered. That said they have specific needs and challenges which must be met. This species for me has done best when given ample space, good cover, varied foods and basically left unmolested. Pumilio are a very robust species in the wild and quite adaptable (I heard a tale today of pums breeding in coke cans in CR where no broms and plants where to be found) however I do believe you can lose these animals quickly to stress.
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Old 02-03-2008, 01:06 PM
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Jeff - I have added the temperature question to the list. I have also edited my response to answer it.

Thanks for the responses so far - and please keep them coming. This topic won't be as informative without people posting both successes and failures.

So all you pumilio keepers, I am calling you out.



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Old 02-03-2008, 02:55 PM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: I let them put a bit of size on before pulling them.

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.)
: I have used 2.5 or 5g tanks fairly well planted in the past. Normally 2 or 3 froglets per tank. I'm trying Sterlite setups at present also.

What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: Froglets are kept on middle racks on my shelving system in my frogroom. Temps vary slightly by the season - but are usually in the low-mid 70s - although they can drop into the mid 60s over night.

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: Froglets get fed both springtails and the end of the ff culture flies (smallest ones). When I'm feeding them in the viv, I feed larger flies first under the theory that the adults will eat the larger foods. Then I feed springtails and smaller ffs. This seems to work. I haven't dusted either of these two sources to this point.

Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?: None.

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method ?: Many over the years.

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: 20%

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: I have more WC Pumilio than CB, the ratio is likely 75 WC to 25 CB (or so).

For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?: Not a large difference in my experience.

Any additional comments: I have seen one group produce a few froglets that experienced seizures. If they can get past the 5 or 6 week mark in the tank (for that group), they're normally safe. Also - I only supplement my frogs once a week. I rotate Herptevite and RepCal (and have used MinerAll in the past as well) while including NatureRose.

Quote:
I have/had the most success with the first round of froglets from WC parents. Oz's comment: Additional rounds of froglet production always seem to come out of the broms smaller, and exhibit the aforementioned side effects. This leads me to believe that there is something missing in the nutritional intake of my breeders.
My Comment: I would agree with your summation. I haven't really seen this in my groups though.

s
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Old 02-03-2008, 03:15 PM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: From the few I've had success with I've always let them stay in the parent tank for a few months.
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): I use very small Glad containers for all my froglets. I have found that if I keep the containers small [filled with LFS and oak leaves for cover] they have easier access to the food. I can feed the containers every other day and still see a couple FF's remaining. One pumilio froglet per container.
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: I supplement with a rotation of Herptivite, Rep Cal calcium, SuperPreen, Naturose and on occasion Dendrocare [although I've only seen seizure activity (non eggfeeders froglets) when I've used Dendrocare exclusively, ?coincidence]
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: Frog room ambient temps. 65F night, 72F day in winter; and ~5degrees warmer on both ends in summer. The room is heated in winter and AC'd in summer.
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?: No. Although I have Ca Gluconate, I use it only if I see a sluggish froglet or a Sz. I havent experienced a need in pumilio as of yet. I dont use it prophylactically at the moment.
How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?: Grand total of 3. No seizures.
What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: Impossible for me to say. Of the 3 I pulled hoping around the tanks, all have made it just fine. Cristo and Basti. Many, many more tads are seen that never make it through morph. I have observed a lot of SLS in film cups. What happens in broms is unknown.
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: The Basti are CB [Gold dust and red/orange], the Cristo are WC/FR. The mancreeks lay eggs constantly and I see tads a lot, but no froglets yet. 2 pairs of CB Bri Bri have brought many tads close to morph but all seem to have SLS.
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?: No, but my data set is too small to tell.
Any additional comments: I have received pums from other sources that did seize and I've also gotten one with an apparent bone growth issue that I assume was nutritional. I am now putting all my pums in tanks with clay and calcium enriched based substrates, using calcium sands, Red Sea florabase, Schultz Aquatic plant soil, mixed with organics similar to ABG mix. I have a number of acquired CB pums growing out on such medium as well.
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Old 02-03-2008, 06:32 PM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: My Cayo de Agua pair has a froglet one month out of water, still with the parents.

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): 15 high front opening, peat, coco chip and LFS substrate, Indian Cattappa leaf litter, lots of plants, 99% humidity.

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:When fed ffs he gets repcal, herptivite, and naturose. He also receives several types of springtails.

Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:
?: No, I will see how this guy does and change things if needed.

What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: During the day 74.5 (inside bottom) 79.4 (inside top) beginning of January. Temps have been modified so the tank is now at 72.8 (bottom) 75.6 (top).

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?: Just the one.

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?:~50%. The Cayo de Aguas have had two froglets come out of the water. The first was found dead in a brom between two leaves right after coming out of the water. My Colons and Loma Partidas just started laying in December and the tads are still doing well although it looks like the Lomas have replaced the original tad. My bastis have had several tads that got pretty large then disappeared.

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?:My Lomas are the only CB pumilios I have. The bastis are FR/WC.

For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:Not enough data yet.

Any additional comments: Im some what surprised that my Bastis have not reproduced froglets as Ive had them the longest. I will note that my Cayo de Aqua pair are kept the hottest on the top shelf of one of my racks. Colons have the coolest temps in the lowest part of the room with lower light.
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Old 02-04-2008, 03:48 AM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:
I pull the juveniles when they are nearly full grown. I've tried pulling them when young in the past but with less success.
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.):
Same as breeding viv. 36"wx36"tx18"d. Heavily planted understory/overstory. Calcium enriched clay substrate.
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: I don't feed anything special. Fruitflies and occassionally add springtails but the froglets do fine on the microfauna living in the viv.
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?:
Temp ranges from 68F at night, to about 82F during the day. However, there is a large temperature gradient in the vivarium so frogs are typically in a location at 68F-about 76F.
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:

The vivarium is fitted with 2x30w Reptisun 10 bulbs with a Solacryl top. I dust about once every 1-2 weeks with calcium supplement. Same frequency with Herptivite, and about the same with Naturose. The vivarium is only fed about once per week or less so the frequency of supplements dictated by feeding frequency.

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?:

Approximately 30 total. All but 4-6 using this method.

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: Hard to answer. Pulling froglets when young resulted in about 50% mortality. After leaving froglets in, there was initially about 50% mortality until I discovered several froglets cooked in the light canopy due to a vivarium design flaw. Since fixing that problem, about 15 froglets have been reared with 0% mortality.
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: 100% from WC but I haven't every set up any CB in a similar breeding viv.
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:
N/A
Any additional comments:
Before adding UVB lighting, I experienced problems with calcium deficiency in both juveniles and one actively breeding adult female despite very frequent vitamin and calcium supplements. Since adding the UVB bulbs about 6 years ago, I've seen no calcium deficiency problems despite reducing the frequency of supplements.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:19 PM
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Brock,

Can i ask how you have the top of your enclosure configured? How are you getting around the UVB getting filtered out by glass/acrylic and still keeping humidity high in the enclosure?

thanks,

Ira
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Old 02-04-2008, 01:23 PM
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Ira he mentions he uses a Solacryl top. This is some type of acrylic or acrylic like plastic that allows UVB light to pass through it. Anyone who makes custom acrylic vivs should be able to do this for you as well if you wanted, though it is supposed to be a bit expensive.
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Old 02-04-2008, 01:56 PM
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I found this on UV transmission. If you're using a vert it might be difficult to get enough UVB through the glass.

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinnature.htm

http://www.uvguide.co.uk/uvinviv.htm

http://www.aquarium-design.com/reef/uvlighting.html

Although with some of these LED's mounted in a group in a proper fixture you could probably place it inside the tank. They're all UVA wavelength however. As far as I know there are no UVB LED's available.

http://www.ledtronics.com/ds/L200CUV395/

Just some thoughts.
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Old 02-04-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frog_newbie
Ira he mentions he uses a Solacryl top. This is some type of acrylic or acrylic like plastic that allows UVB light to pass through it. Anyone who makes custom acrylic vivs should be able to do this for you as well if you wanted, though it is supposed to be a bit expensive.
That's right. This is a homemade acrylic viv with glass sliding door front. The top panel is simply Solacryl which is solvent welded to the top just as you would a normal acrylic top. Solacryl is a little more expensive than regular acrylic but it isn't that bad. It costs far less than the value of a single pumilio froglet.

Early on I just laid the solacryl over an egg crate flourescent light baffle so it could be easily replaced. That was the design flaw I mentioned before. When I tore down the viv to refurbish it, I found 6 blue jeans froglets mumified in the canopy - thus explaining some mysterious mortalities.

I don't do verticle viv conversions anymore, but I did once set one up with UV simply by glueing an undercounter flourescent strip light fixture to the bottom side of the top panel so the UV lamp was inside the vivarium with no barrier. It works well so long as you keep water spray off of it. Needless to say, it should be plugged into a GFCI outlet for safety.

I should also say that for most vivs, 2x Reptisun 10 would be WAY too much UVB. This is a really tall viv with a lot of vegetation blocking the UV so the UVB exposure to the frogs is only a fraction of what is being provided. For most vivs, a small Reptisun 5 should be fine.
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Old 02-05-2008, 04:30 AM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: Usually when I can handle them easily about 1 cm.

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): I use 190 clear containers from Superior enterprises, 1-2 inches LFS, magnolia leafs from springtail cultures and many ivy sprigs. One pumilio froglet per container. Feed every other day(gliders and springtails)

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: I supplement with a rotation of Herptivite, Rep Cal calcium. Parents tank and froglet setup dusted with powdered cuttlefish 1 time a week

What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: Usually a steady high seventies. I keep them in my ff room.

Do you use any additional supplementation? Besides the above, No

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?: I have to date alittle over ten from last years importations. Some are still in their parents vivariums. They are all just starting it seems.

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: I have lost 2 from temp extremes. How many not seen/pulled?

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? 100 %WC

Any additional comments:In reading dendroboard it seemed the substrates are the key as well as health of parents for viable eggs.
I additionally have been very lucky getting very health stock!
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Old 02-05-2008, 01:34 PM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: Anywhere from just up on the leaf to 2-3 months. They are close to adult at that point.
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): Pics below, sterilite shoe box containers w/ glass lid. coco chips exclusively in froglets mix in adults(abg approximate mix)
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: Springs all the time everywhere, ff`s 2-4x a week crickets 0-1x a week. gutload for crickets leafy greens, carrots, oranges, flake food, ground organic dogfood, whatever else is scrap around the kitchen(squash, celery etc.) springtails get yeast w/ calcpowder as food and get supplemented w/vit-all before feeding them off. I usually re-up the spr. count 1 a week to 1 x every 2 weeks. they feed off the oak leaves and magnolia leaves in the meantime. ff`s are dusted every time w/ calcium and 1-3 times a week w/ vits.
Adults get the same w/ less springs running around the tank. Most have various isopods in them
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: room - 72 - 77
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?: none
How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?: 200-300+ in the last 2 years? I have about 50-60 at the moment and more coming out each week.
What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: some gave me probs in the beginning and I see a problem here and there. Maybe 80-85% survival
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: 20 pairs wc and 1-2 cb cb produced just as well or better, actually my cb chiriquis were the most prolific at 10 froglets from one clutch 8 of which survived when temps were much higher. smaller froglets than I get now. they layed 27 eggs in just over a week.
folowed by a cb pair of man creek(born and grown up here) that laid a good clutch of 12 their first at just under 4 months of age.
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?: cb seem to get it right more consistently if cared for well. I`ve had some wc pairs that gave me weak froglets the 1st and sometimes 2nd clutches of young and eventually settled in to producing good froglets.
Any additional comments: Producing good young w/ egg feeders is the highest level of frog breeding. It`s easier to get frogs to produce marginal tads and feed them well and keep them in a clean environment to raise them. It is MUCH harder to supply adult animals, this small, with the proper nutrition to produce healthy young since U have to not only get the nutrition right for the adults to produce viable eggs and sperm you have to keep the proper nutrition going for the whole cycle of them feeding their young. the better you do the better health and # of offspring. If you get wc and get good froglets the first round and then go downhill your not feeding a weel enough balanced diet.
Another question regarding stress level is how many pair do you have next to each other in glass tanks where they can see the pair next to them. Stress of competitors that can`t be driven off may diminish health to the point of producing unviable young. Remember your female pumilio are eating for 4-6 animals at a time, offspring which can equal or surpass her body weight at a given time.

pics of adults tanks:





Solarte juvi



Red bastis 2 growing up together



Escudo subadult



Cauchero juvi and froglet





Juvi viv

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Old 02-05-2008, 02:47 PM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:
This depends on a number of factors. Some of my vivs are not conducive to catching froglets at will so at times I pull them when they are easy to catch. I always pull them well before they become sexually mature to avoid aggression. Sexual maturity can sneak up fast considering the fact that female pums can produce good eggs and feed tads to morphing surprisingly young and small in their adulthood.
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): 1.5 gallon round tubs from Pastor Josh. Lined with paper towels . Leaf litter , plants, and charcoal from the springtail cultures. The charcoal allows the froglets to easily find the springtails.
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?: There needs to be a constant supply of springtails. If given enough plants and leaf litter it is almost impossible to over do the springtails. Depending on the age and size of the froglets or juvis I almost always at least give them a few melanos dusted each feeding. Rep Cal and Herptivite mixed in one container. A few FFs running around, even if the pums are too small to eat the FFs will at least get them used to another food source running around and help trigger a hunt mode. Feeding of FFs about twice a week. No more than two froglets per tub.
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?:
Daytime of around 74 max. Night of about 65.
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?: No.
How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?:in the 100's.
What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: I think this question should read 'What is your average mortality rate of froglets once they are pulled?' In most of my vivs I have no idea how many tads are in how many axils or film cans. And I have no idea of how many froglets are hopping around any given viv at any given time. One of the fun things about working with pums. Once I pull a froglet I give it about a 75% chance of surviving to adulthood.
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: 50/50ish
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?: No. And I have not found WCs to be any more or less fecundate that CBs.
Any additional comments:One of the biggest 'bang for the buck' things to understand is the absolute need to have springtails available , in their tubs, for froglets at all times. Having springtails right up until they are adults is a good thing. Out of all the little things I have moved, changed, tried different or whatever, this is the most important issue I have found to get froglets over the 'three month hump'. Just make sure you have enough leaf litter and plants in your froglet tubs to keep the springtails from stressing out the pums by crawling constantly over them.

Rich
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Old 02-05-2008, 03:36 PM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?: I pull them as I find them unless they are very small generally half size of the adult frogs.
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): I keep them all in 5 gallon tanks layer of LECA mesh then a layer of living compost. on top of this goes a mix of magnolia and oak leafs with pothos, wandering jew. and other misc plants. these tanks are set up way before any froglets are seen so they more or less become established minibeast cultures
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:The living substrate has springtails gnats mites and other micro fauna in it so the froglets don't get additional feeding for about 6-8 weeks then they are generally able to take melanogaster which gets dendrocare and they are misted with calcium water 1 time per week like my adult frogs.
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: ambiant room temp is 72 and the tanks get maybe 5 degrees hotter.
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) Calcium added to the misting water
If so, with what frequency?: 1 time per week
How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?: 60 or so since last spring.
What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: onces I find maybe 20%
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: 30/70
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?: Not noticed anything.
Any additional comments:
IMO giving the froglets a varied constant offering of food is a major key to success also leaving them to get on with it with minimal disturbance is very important.
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Old 02-06-2008, 12:37 AM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:

Normally when they are strong enough to get out of the brom to find food for themselves . The few that I've pulled before they left their brom have died within a couple weeks . I had a few that I didn't find for a couple months though they grew up good in the tank and afterward .

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.):

I use a 190 oz tub or a 2.5 gal aquarium set up like a tiny viv , substrate like I use in a viv , plants , a small brom and leaf litter and lots of springtails . Then after about two months I put them in a similarly set up 10 gallon tank . 2 froglets per small tub at the most . Usually 2 froglets per 10 g. tank sometimes 3 at most .

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:

They are supplied with plenty of springtails , I usually don't feed fruit flys for at least a month depending on the species the Escudo's after 1.5 - 2 months . I usually add more springtails every week . Fruit flys are dusted alternatly every other feeding with rep cal and herpitive and once in a while with nuturose . I used to feed almost every day with small amounts of fruit flys after I started them on them , but now its every other day ( I'll explain why below ) .

What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?:
usually around 75 degrees day 68-70 at night .

Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:

yes , 1 or two drops of Calcium gluconate once a week probably for at least 3-4 months . Diluted 2 parts C.G. 8 parts RO water .

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?:
11 healthy so far . One morphed with SLS , 3 morphed weak and died within a week , one real tiny one lasted a couple months and never grew then died ( I'm suprised it lasted that long !) and a few died from siezures at between 3 - 5 months . One I saw in the viv for around a week then I never saw it again .

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?:

About 60 % make it .

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?:

100% WC.

For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:

All my froglets are from WC.frogs . My one C.B. pair haven't bred succesfully yet .


Any additional comments:

Most of my first clutches of froglets from newly bought- imported frogs were the most healthy . The later ones some have been stricken with seizures a few to the point of death . I don't know if this coincidence or not or if it was from them still living off the the food , diets and nutrition from before they were captured and laying healthier eggs , then not getting the same nutrition later from what we feed the frogs and passing that on to the tads and froglets or what ?
I've noticed the ones that died after a few months looked like they were way overweight for their size and slugish when moveing around and then they started to sieze then the seizures got worse as they got fatter and then they would start wasteing away then die . A couple "healthy" looking froglets would have a siezure when giving them their calcium drops but the siezure would pass in a minute or so and they would go on to grow up be ok and not die .
That's why I started to feed less frequently recently . And so far it looks good with the ones I have left .
And I've also noticed that the longer I keep them in the small encolsures the more sluggish they become as they get bigger that's why I move them to a bigger tank once they bet bigger, and feed them the same amount as in the smaller container . I think that this gives them more room to "hunt " for food and move around alot more , so they don't get used to sitting around and waiting for food to come to them . I'm starting to think that if they are more active it helps from them getting fat and less chance of devoloping the siezures .
The only bad thing with when they are in the bigger tank and having alot of leaf litter in the tank its hard to see them or find them all the time to check on how they are doing and give them their calcium drops . I've had twice that froglets just " dissapear " after 5 - 6 months . I'm guessing they died but couldn't tell when , how or why .
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Old 02-06-2008, 12:56 AM
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Thanks for the replies from everyone so far.

There is a lot to be learned from this thread; but we certainly haven't mastered the husbandry of these frogs.

What is surprising to me is that there seem to be only minor differences between the setups of individuals having great success with the species - and those that are struggling.
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Old 02-06-2008, 02:58 AM
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Code:
When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:
I used to pull them as soon as I could catch them but seem to be finding better success/mortality when left until about half grown. I add springtails several times over the first few months.

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.): when pulled I do 2 or 3 to a 10 gallon tank, normal setup.

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:
springtails in the tank with adults, ffs, supplementation on flies.

What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?: no special temps, whatever room is

Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:
Early on I use CG once or twice a week depending on if I have had trouble with the froglets in the past for example BJs and Man Creeks. Never had a problem with bastis, CRs, Escudo, Rio Brancos. Lately I have had MCs and BJs that did fine without the supplementation and some that died with it also. Seemed to really help when they first started producing though. It can't hurt so if I am in doubt I use it.

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?: lots

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?: depends on species. Bastis less than 10%, escudo 0%, branco 0%, BJs I've got a page on my site with some numbers, darklands 100%, CRs about 0%.<response fixed, Catfur>

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?: most pairs are WC probably 80/20 again depends on species but overall...

For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:
don't have hard statistics but I'd say they are about the same

Any additional comments:
I think leaving them in the tank is probably a major contributor to long term success. The stress of moving them when they are so small I think is a big part of why it helps to leave them be. As far as calcium gluconate... could be the calcium, could be the sugar or "energy" getting them over a hump, could be coincidence. As with most things there are really so many variables that could be contributing that it is hard to say without a real study with control groups etc, etc. Definitely worth trying if you are having problems though
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Old 02-06-2008, 12:20 PM
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Robb,
The darklands are the only froglets that haven`t died on you? your statement on froglet mortality rate says that only 1/10 bastis live for you and everything else doesn`t make it. Did you read that question backwards.

also can I get on anyone`s list for blue jeans!!!!!
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Old 02-06-2008, 01:06 PM
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Yes I got it backwards, reverse the numbers. My bad.
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Old 02-13-2008, 03:56 PM
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Is there enough evidence here to conclude that these frogs need UVB to be healthy enough to produce viable offspring? Or is it circumstantial at this time?
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Old 02-13-2008, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerously
Is there enough evidence here to conclude that these frogs need UVB to be healthy enough to produce viable offspring? Or is it circumstantial at this time?
I'd say looking at the responses that it is still circumstantial but possibly warranted. I believe I'm the only one who reported using UVB but am far from the only one having success. However, there are a fair number of reports of seizures and use of calcium gluconate among the successes. In the results (which are very fascinating btw) it appears that UVB is likely a useful tool for these frogs but perhaps not absolutely necessary. The sample size is too small, but there is at least an indication that UVB may answer some of the issues with seizures. But for those not having issues with seizures, it may not provide any detectable benefit. There may be enough data here to tabulate the results and run a MANOVA on them to see if any factors pop out as significant.
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Old 02-13-2008, 07:10 PM
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When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:
as soon as I can get them. I see them probly a week or so before can get them out. there in the parents very well planted 20gal and to rampage through it would destroy it just for one froglet.
Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.):
when I get the froglets out I place them in a pre-setup 2.5gal tank. there setup like a mini viv with leave litter pothos and one brom per tank. eco earth bedding.
What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:
i feed them with fruit flys from the get go, they can handle them out of the water. i dust the flys every feeding. i rotate from herpcal pink and blue container
What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?:
75% on the dot during day at night changes from low 60s to 70s
Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:
none
How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?:
5 pulled out of the tank, and about 7 more in the tank still. ages from 2weeks- 5months. also know of 3 tadpoles coming soon.
What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?:
of all the frogs ive saw from tadpoles i havnt lost any. i can look strait down on my tanks and see the all well enough to follow there growth.
What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?:
50/50 however only my basti produce. my cristo lay eggs but there never good
For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:
:roll:
Any additional comments:
my basti frogs are the largest pumilio i have seen. there froglets come out taking FF and I have had no SLS. only worked with one pair making froglets so when i get my others breading ill come back and update my post.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:00 PM
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Just wanted to preface this with the fact that I don't have any experience with pumilio other than one pair I have, and the three froglets they've produced for me thus far.

When do you pull froglets from the parent's tank?:

If I had a large tank that was setup with the froglets in mind I would leave them in the tank, but my pair of pumilio are in a 40 gallon where the microfauna is not in my control so I remove my froglets.

Please describe your froglet setup (size of container, substrate, etc.):

I first had a 5 gallon tank but then setup individual 10 gallon tanks per froglet. The substrate was mainly just peat and tree fern fiber, with a layer of leaf litter above. Then I added a decent amount of calcium carbonate, seeded it with springtails, and gave it two weeks to colonize (peat was added for it's acidic pH to try and counteract the calcium carbonate basic pH).

Then I added some plants from the same tank as the parents. I only mention this because if there was any beneficial micro-organism or even 'parasite' in the tank of the parents, it went in with the froglets. The tank from the parents was also previously innoculated with mycorrhizal fungi, not sure if that had any part in making the calcium in the substrate available to the microfauna growing on it.

What do you feed froglets? How often? Supplementation?:

First there were the springtails in the tank itself, then there are my separate feeder springtail cultures. I have two types of springtails the are the most productive for me, so I use them mainly. I was experimenting with mixing in different supplements to the bakers yeast I was feeding and making a paste out of it, which was then spread on a leaf, and then I'd feed the springtails on that leaf. Each springtail culture would be fed a different type of paste which had a different ingredient mixed in (spirulina, herptivite, repcal, and naturose). I fed springtails nightly.

After about 2 months they started eating flies, I had 2 types of winged melanogaster and 1 type of wingless melanogaster that I alternated between. In addition I also alternated between the four supplements listed above (herptivite, repcal, naturose, spirulina). I never mixed supplements and used a different one for each feeding. I would feed flies every night initially, then every other night later on. I also stopped feeding springtails once they were eating flies.

Another relevant question might be what do I feed the parents, but it's essentially the same thing with more of a focus on the flies than springtails.

What temperature do you keep pumilio froglets at?:

Mostly the same as the parents, anywhere from 80-83 F in the day to the lower 70s at night. I haven't been following this closely.

Do you use any additional supplementation? (e.g. calcium gluconate, UV, etc.) If so, with what frequency?:

I made a 50/50 mixture of 23% calcium gluconate and amphibian ringers solution (for a total of 50% ARS and 11.5% CG) which I dropped on the froglets back once a week for the first 2 months, until they started eating flies.

How many froglets have you successfully reared using your method?:

I've only had 3 froglets thus far, but they were reared with this method. Another froglet has just morphed out this week but I'm trying it in a slightly different substrate (clay, but the feeding will be the same). Also these froglets are only 4 months old, so it's too early to even say if they were successfully reared, but they are the same size as the adults.

What is your average pumilio froglet mortality rate?:

n/a, sample size too small.

What percentage of your pumilio froglets are from CB parents? WC parents?:

Parents are imports.

For those working with both CB and WC breeders - have you found different froglet mortality rates with your rearing method?:

n/a, I don't have CB breeders.

Any additional comments:

To be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Dangerously wrote:
Is there enough evidence here to conclude that these frogs need UVB to be healthy enough to produce viable offspring? Or is it circumstantial at this time?

I'd say looking at the responses that it is still circumstantial but possibly warranted. I believe I'm the only one who reported using UVB but am far from the only one having success. However, there are a fair number of reports of seizures and use of calcium gluconate among the successes. In the results (which are very fascinating btw) it appears that UVB is likely a useful tool for these frogs but perhaps not absolutely necessary. The sample size is too small, but there is at least an indication that UVB may answer some of the issues with seizures. But for those not having issues with seizures, it may not provide any detectable benefit. There may be enough data here to tabulate the results and run a MANOVA on them to see if any factors pop out as significant.
I`ve raised 100`s of pumilio w/out uv from a sample size of over 20 pair. I think it`s more likely people aren`t dusting enough w/ calc W/ d3 or there are bad batches of calcium out there and I just go thru it quick enough w/ all the animals I have that it doesn`t affect them. Either that or humid environments(oxygen or whatever) and the stability of d3 don`t work well together. I have just recently heard of these seizure problems. before last year I`d never heard of seizing dart frogs(other than zaparo). Now it seems almost frequent. I`m leaning more toward bad batches of calcium or vit`s w/ too much vit a or something else blocking calcium uptake.
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Old 02-14-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm
Quote:
Dangerously wrote:
Is there enough evidence here to conclude that these frogs need UVB to be healthy enough to produce viable offspring? Or is it circumstantial at this time?

I'd say looking at the responses that it is still circumstantial but possibly warranted. I believe I'm the only one who reported using UVB but am far from the only one having success. However, there are a fair number of reports of seizures and use of calcium gluconate among the successes. In the results (which are very fascinating btw) it appears that UVB is likely a useful tool for these frogs but perhaps not absolutely necessary. The sample size is too small, but there is at least an indication that UVB may answer some of the issues with seizures. But for those not having issues with seizures, it may not provide any detectable benefit. There may be enough data here to tabulate the results and run a MANOVA on them to see if any factors pop out as significant.
I`ve raised 100`s of pumilio w/out uv from a sample size of over 20 pair. I think it`s more likely people aren`t dusting enough w/ calc W/ d3 or there are bad batches of calcium out there and I just go thru it quick enough w/ all the animals I have that it doesn`t affect them. I`m leaning more toward bad batches of calcium or vit`s w/ too much vit a or something else blocking calcium uptake.
A big Yup to that. Hundreds of pums and thousands of other froglets and I can say that UV is not needed. Does it help? Maybe in some situations. But I'd say only when something else is lacking.

Rich
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Old 02-14-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye
A big Yup to that. Hundreds of pums and thousands of other froglets and I can say that UV is not needed. Does it help? Maybe in some situations. But I'd say only when something else is lacking.

Rich
I agree with Rich and Aaron. However, there are interactions that may explain some of this too. In a very large and lightly populated vivarium, much of the dietary intake of froglets and adults can be met by invertebrates produced inside the vivarium. Also, it is much more difficult to control the intake of dusted foods. For example, I typically add flies to my large pumilio viv less than once a week, sometimes going 2-3 weeks between feedings. There are some fantastic advantages to this but also some disadvantages. My opinion is that in any situation, adding UVB provides a bit of a safety net for vitamin D3 nutrition. But as the vivarium size increases and feeding frequency decreases, the addition of UVB may become more of a necessity to offset some of the challenges of large setups.
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Old 09-09-2008, 03:52 AM
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Default Re: How do you raise pumilio froglets? Survey

How did I ever miss this thread! Bump for a sticky.
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Old 09-13-2008, 12:06 AM
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I updated my post to reflect changes in husbandry and their effect.
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Old 04-01-2010, 08:25 PM
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Awesome thread. I knew people have said keeping/breeding pumilio(s?) was difficult but...sheesh!
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Old 03-31-2012, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrock View Post
That's right. This is a homemade acrylic viv with glass sliding door front. The top panel is simply Solacryl which is solvent welded to the top just as you would a normal acrylic top. Solacryl is a little more expensive than regular acrylic but it isn't that bad. It costs far less than the value of a single pumilio froglet.

Early on I just laid the solacryl over an egg crate flourescent light baffle so it could be easily replaced. That was the design flaw I mentioned before. When I tore down the viv to refurbish it, I found 6 blue jeans froglets mumified in the canopy - thus explaining some mysterious mortalities.

I don't do verticle viv conversions anymore, but I did once set one up with UV simply by glueing an undercounter flourescent strip light fixture to the bottom side of the top panel so the UV lamp was inside the vivarium with no barrier. It works well so long as you keep water spray off of it. Needless to say, it should be plugged into a GFCI outlet for safety.

I should also say that for most vivs, 2x Reptisun 10 would be WAY too much UVB. This is a really tall viv with a lot of vegetation blocking the UV so the UVB exposure to the frogs is only a fraction of what is being provided. For most vivs, a small Reptisun 5 should be fine.
Cool project! You're running them at about 60% of their capacity if I understand your circuit correctly. There are power supplies designed specifically for this type of application that could get you to 100% with less heat output and probably a dimmer function to boot. I bet the same people that sold you the LED Lights could hook you up....
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