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View Poll Results: Are your pairs from the same offspring?
Yes, same cluch 4 22.22%
Yes, different cluch 2 11.11%
No 7 38.89%
Don't know 5 27.78%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-16-2004, 01:51 AM
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Default To mix or not to mix (bloodlines)

I am new to the hobby and plan to purchase some frogs in the near future and hopefully get a pair to sucessfully breed.

Should I get 4 or 5 Aratus each from a different breeder or 4 or 5 from the same breeder/same parents?

Do offspring from the same parents carry ressesive genes that when paired produce the ressive trait like a genetic defect. For instance hip displaisia (sp?) in dogs. I am not quite sure if it is a ressessive gene but you get my point.

Would it be better to get the same breed/morph from a couple of different breeders to widen the gene pool and create more diversity?

I am sure with how small the hobby is now that offspring from the same parrents or siblings are being breed with out any knowledge.

What are your thoughts?

Jason
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:23 AM
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I just got a pair of vents from the fryes, and they were originally from aaron handzlik in new york, and a friend of mine just got 2 different groups of vents from 2 different people, and they all originally came from aaron too, but out of my pair and my friends 2 different groups they all went from aaron to several other people then they breed them and sold the froglets. The 3 sets of frogs all took different paths. The only person they had in common was aaron. So most people are probably breeding related frogs, how much there related nobody really know as bloodlines sometimes get crossed. I usually buy my frogs from the same breeder, because there only f1's so there offspring are f2's and there is usually no defects in that fillial generation. Some european breeders say there no effects until f12's but I dont endorse inbreeding that much.
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Old 10-16-2004, 02:34 AM
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Recessive traits do not manifest themselves as quickly in amphibans as they do, in say mammals. Localized wild populations would almost certainly be predominantly inbreed. And studies have taken inbreeding in dart frogs to 9 generations with no obvious ill effects.

That being said, I see no harm in mixing blood lines. However, most hard core breeders like to insure that subspecies and different morphs are not cross bred.

Tim
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Old 10-16-2004, 06:11 AM
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Crossing BLOOD LINES can be a good thing but if you do this some people may want records so remember what you did. Crossing diffrenet MORPHS is very bad, just make sure you have the same morph, it's not too hard to tell .
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Old 10-16-2004, 05:05 PM
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Yea, you deffinantally want to have the same species/morph. Creating new species is NOT a good idea. I think it is up to frog breeders as well as fish and coral breeders/farmers to maintain the species. Soon wild frog, fish and coral harvest will be outlawed. This, along with the rapid depleation of natural habitat is where we can step in as a hobby and possibally bring back species that may be endangered in the future.

I posed the question to see what people are currently doing. If I can afford it I plan to get the same species/morph from different breeders. For now though I am just trying to build the vavarium.

Jason
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Old 10-16-2004, 05:16 PM
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Default History of the hobby

I kind of wonder just how big the gene pool(s) on the various frogs in the hobby were to begin with. For example, how many W.C. Azeurus came into the country, survived and bred? I know for the longest time, they were considered "rare", even though (I've heard) they breed very prolifilcly, and are now quite common (in the hobby).
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:07 PM
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Default Inbreeding

Back to the poll question, I like many hobbyists have pairs that would fit in more than 1 of the poll options, did I miss the "All of the Above" option (though I don't currently have all of the above in my current meager collection). This is always a good topic and certainly information that I would always disclose to anyone that wanted something I had. Keeping a master record for people to put their info in might be an interesting effort for a forum such as this. Interestingly when talking with Pat Nabors he mentioned that many of his customers are not overly interested in acquiring different or new bloodlines for some of the species he offers.
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Old 10-16-2004, 07:39 PM
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Here we go again. First we need to define what we mean by "bloodline". To me, a bloodline represents a wild population and a population is a group of frogs that freely exchange genetic material in the wild. A population could be as large as all the blue jeans pumilio breeding from Nicaragua to Costa Rica, or it could be as small a group of red pumilio isolated along a particular beach on an island in Panama. There could be more than one morph within a population or "bloodline" or there could be more than one population or "bloodline" that exhibits the same morph. So when I hear people say it can be good to mix "bloodlines", I get nervous because I don't know what that means. I've said many times before that I think it is safest to breed WITHIN bloodlines because IF genetic problems arise or better information comes along, lines could easily be mixed intelligently to fix the problem. However, inappropriate mixing cannot be undone.

Also, I do not agree that mammals show inbreeding depression faster than amphibians. As far as I know, the processes of miosis and mitosis are the same in both. But we tend to immediately think of dogs to compare with amphibians and jump to the conclusion that because many breeds of dogs have problems, they are more succeptible. Actually many breeds of dog have undergone many generations of the most extreme form of inbreeding possible, line breeding. This is where offspring are continually crossed back to their parents or grandparents to quickly fix genes to produce consistently similar animals. This is as close as sexual reproduction can get to cloning and is a far cry from randomly breeding frogs that happen to be the offspring of the same 4 or 5 founders.

With all of that said, in the case of typical g&b auratus, I doubt it matters much. These guys have been around so long and so widely bred that any hope of tracing their wild origins have been lost... for MOST of the g&b auratus out there anyway - there are a few lines that can be traced back to the wild. Another thing to consider is that even if you buy all of your frogs from the same breeder, that doesn't mean they all have the same parents. Many people breed auratus in groups so you could have froglets that came from the same tank but have completely different parents or share one parent but not the other. My advice is to just get auratus of the same morph from whatever sources make you feel most comfortable UNLESS you happen to find auratus with good lineage information that can be traced to the wild. That's not likely to happen though.
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