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Old 03-02-2007, 07:33 PM
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Default Illegal dart frogs

Has a list been produced of the imports and which Darts are legal/illegal in the US. It seems there is alot of "illegal" frogs in Europe any ideas why this is??


Bill
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Old 03-02-2007, 07:45 PM
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lots of smuggling
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Old 03-02-2007, 07:48 PM
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how about The dendrobates.org unofficial blacklist:

http://www.dendrobates.org/smuggling.html
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Old 03-02-2007, 08:09 PM
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That is cool but it lists many species we often deal with. Does the US ban importation? and before anything gets started..NO..I do not plan on obtaining illegal frogs this is purely curiosity. Thanks for the link.

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Old 03-02-2007, 10:32 PM
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http://www.dendroboard.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ysteriosus

This thread should answer most of your questions. To my knowledge the US does not ban the frog, but rather upholds and enforces the bans put in place by other countries
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Old 03-03-2007, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
That is cool but it lists many species we often deal with.
Exactly.
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Old 03-05-2007, 09:36 AM
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The list is not correct.
for example: Vanzolinii
isn't illegal over here in europe. (i am not saying there are not illegal vanzolinii frogs over here in europe). There were frogs confescated by the gov. and placed at a frogkeeper. He managed to breed them and got permissions to sell the offspring. So if you can proof your animals are from his line you are ok to keep them. I already send an e-mail to dendrobates.org about it sometime ago.
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Old 03-05-2007, 07:38 PM
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The problem with this kinda of logic and thinking is that it basically says that it doesn't really matter what the country of origin (Peru) says or feels about how the legality of the species goes. Peru never exported Vanzolinii legally. If they did, how come the frogs you spoke of were confiscated?? It wasn't to give Harold Divossen (sp) the opportunity to work with them, it was because they were being smuggled in. So how do you take a frog that was illegal and make it legal? You can't. Now, in Germany's, or Belgium's, or Denmark's, or whoevers mind they might be "legal" in their country because Harold produced them, but in all reality they are still the same illegal sumggled frogs that got confiscated because they were smuggled. Think of it this way... marijuana is legal in Amsterdam but it's not legal everywhere else. In this line of thinking if Amsterdam says marijuana is legal and someone from the US imports a bunch of it because "it's legal over there", do you think the US state dept. is just going to say "OK, I guess you got us". NO. Illegal is illegal and doesn't mean that everyone else has to accept the legal tag that Germany threw on those frogs. I think if you want to take that stance you should amend your statement and say that Vanzolinii are not considered illegal in Germany or wherever else recognizes Harold's frogs as legitimate imports, but all other countries that haven't adopted this policy are still up inthe air. I'm not saying that I like it or necessarily even agree with it, but that is how it works and unless Peru drops the ban on Vanzolinii (and this can go for any frog from any country), they are still considered illegal by the source. Just my .02
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Old 03-05-2007, 08:33 PM
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The fact is if all of us look under the microscope hard enough... we would find that the vast majority of our frogs Imported from Europe were smuggled at one point . This means that for a long long time all of the so called "lines" in some peoples view are illegal . Not until the recent advent of the projects in Peru have most of the imports been legit . So should we just make blanket statements of well then they are all illegal ? How many of us have "thumbnails" tincs ,epips ect..from Peru and elsewhere ? Did they come w/ papers ? If not they quite possibly (in some peoples eyes) are from smuggled origin somewhere along the line .What is the cost of shooting the "illegal" label on current PRODUCTIVE captives that we have been working with for some time now ?
I know this creates a lot of issues arguments ect. and we all have our own views . Here is mine .
Old behavior vs new . New frogs come in from Europe . If I was interested in acquiring some I bought them , they were here right, must be legit ! Never really took a long hard look at the cost to the frog as a species , morph, or the impact of wild populations . Until it was brought to the front of all our minds (very good thing) now we are informed and can make a more educated additions to our frogging addiction . I for one will no longer
seek out new species directly from Europe . I'd rather get legit papers from the country of origin and be doing something worth while for wild populations . I hope we all would . We have been blessed with a amazing array of new species to work with in the last few years . And we are more informed as a group than ever before . I just hope it's benefiting the frogs we so dearly care for .
BTW ANYONE EVER get any papers from ANY of their INIBICO FROGS ?
I know I've asked several times ....still nothing :?
Happy frogging ,
Darren Meyer
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:07 PM
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If someone (let's say a beginner who doesn't know the diff. between dendrobates and phyllobates) buys these frogs over here on a show and they are from the line H.Divossen than his papers are ok for the law. That's enough...it doesn't matter if they were illegal brought in from Peru. Law=Law..same with your marijuana example. Over here it is legal in the usa illegal..law=law.
Thousands of people are keeping Galactonotus. They weren't never exported from Brasil. If someone produces somekind of list you must be sure about it and give good information. The information that this frog is legal in some countries is now missing on the list and therefore it's misleading. This list is also viewable for european visitors. The Vanzolinii is legal here by the law. If the "Divossen" line may not be exported to the usa is something else.
That you don't want to keep the vanzolinii because you are a 'expertfrogger' and know that these frogs were once brought in illegal is also another discussion. The law over here says legal. So they don't belong on a illegal list in my opinion.
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:20 PM
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BTW vanzolinii have been legally imported into the states . I personally have seen the paperwork attached to them . Though it does not state who the came from in Europe . USFW has approved the import of them , and like it or not current production in captivity is happening . 8)
Happy frogging ,
Darren Meyer
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Old 03-05-2007, 10:39 PM
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Well, let me clear one thing up. I don't even agree with teh truths in everything I said (yeah, figure that one out). What I mean is that I don't agree with the idea that they should be illegal, but in many places they are. IMO, there should be an international agreement on the legality of each frog that is being kept so that everyone will be on the same page, but that isn't going to happen. You're just as likely to get all teh nations of the world to "play nice" and agree on world peace. Let's face it, there's a double standard in the world today and no matter how much we want to do the right thing and not support smuggling, it's still gonna happen. I think the key here is like Darren said and to support and buy from froggers and projects that you know the history and import specs of a frog. If someone pops up on the classifieds here in a day or two and posts 10 mysteriosus for sale, there is going to be a sh*tstorm. If some one else posts 10 galacs for sale at the same time, nobody is going to bat an eye. Like I said, it's a double standard, but good luck changing it. Honestly, unless all frogs are either outlawed or accepted there is always going to be this problem as if you take the middle ground (like the hobby is doing right now), there is far too much room for interpretation and that will always lead to questions like this. I am by no means an "expert frogger" as you termed it but have spent a lot of time debating these exact questions with others many times over to come to the same place we are right now... nowhere. I am sorry if i ruffled your feathers... I know of you and your reputation and know you are dedicated to responsible frogging and was only trying to present it from another viewpoint for you to think about.
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Old 03-06-2007, 12:54 AM
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Like Galacs the same goes with the Terribilis, I know years ago a few were exported from Colombia legally for scientific purposes however I am pretty certain 100% of the frogs in today's hobby did not come from that legal group. They are prolific, offered regularly and no one complains of the status of this species. Of course this is a different kind of example as there were no stories of hundreds/thousands of frogs being smuggled and habitat being ravaged to find every last frog.
Mark
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Meyer
BTW vanzolinii have been legally imported into the states . I personally have seen the paperwork attached to them . Though it does not state who the came from in Europe . USFW has approved the import of them , and like it or not current production in captivity is happening . 8)
Happy frogging ,
Darren Meyer
And now that they are here and reproducing will it be in quantities enough and soon enough to take pressure off of the collection of wild populations? Darren has the bright red headed and blue Fantasticus shown up with the Vanzolini's as well?
Mark
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Old 03-06-2007, 01:16 AM
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"And now that they are here and reproducing will it be in quantities enough and soon enough to take pressure off of the collection of wild populations? Darren has the bright red headed and blue Fantadticus shown up with the Vanzolini's as well? "
I haven't seen the imports ...just some papers . None had fantasticus on the lists .
And as far as sustained breeding of vanso's and numbers produced ..... your gues would be as good as mine .
I'm gonna duck back down my hole now
Happy frogging ,
Darren
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:06 AM
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The blue body red headed fants haven't come in legally... yet. They should be here legally by the end of the year if not sooner but the only ones that are around if there are any are the ones that have been smuggled to Europe.
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Old 03-06-2007, 10:15 AM
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vanzolinii, galactonotus, marihuana etc.. None of this is legal here in Holland. There is no law that states it's ok to have it. Actually all is still considered illegal. Strange thing about this country is that we are ALLOWED to have it. Coffeeshops are ALLOWED to sell marihuana in certain quantities to people of certain ages but still it's illegal to grow it. Also it's illegal for the coffeeshop to buy the marihuana.
We are ALLOWED to have galactonotus and vanzo's but legal is something different.

Authorities in every country think differently. We are allowed to keep vanzo's here in Holland but in Belgium you are not allowed to. They don't care if you have papers from Harald Divossen at all.

In my opinion it's correct when D. vanzolinii is on this unofficial blacklist. Aswell as D. galactonotus. It is kinda confusing though.,..

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remco
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Old 03-06-2007, 02:53 PM
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And basicallly that's the problem that I was stating... there is no continuity between countries. What's OK in a certain country is not over in another and vice versa. There needs to be one continuial idea, but getting the countries to do that is like getting them all to agree on anything... it's not going to happen. That's why I would like to see the idea of legal and illegal dropped and a more uniform idea tht we can control take over. It would be like a moral/ethicla code for teh hobby that would say "you can morall/ethically have these frogs but these are off limits". It would put the responsibility on the froggers themselves to do the right thing and only support species that have been handled in the proper ways. It wouldn't encroach on any laws because all the one in question would either be illegal somewhere or legal everywhere and the moral code would take the ones that are illegal in certain countries and not in others and make them questionable. Basically it leaves the responsibility of the decision to the frogger and take the countries governments out of being the scapegoats or justifiers for having them. It would take all the froggers in the community to have the same morals which may be just as daunting a task as trying to get the countries to agree on policy, but my suspicion is that most froggers that are serious about this hobby and not in on a whim are already probably pretty much on the same page anyways. That's how I would like to se it and see a "list" developed based off this moral/ethical standing, but it probably won't happen. Sometimes people are more likley to play off their morals than a law they don't agree with.
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Old 03-06-2007, 07:15 PM
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@sbreland
You did not ruffled my feathers... I just want to point to the list nothing more. If someone made up list even it's unofficial you must provide the correct information. On the list is missing that they are legal in some countries. I keep it simple by using the word legal. Hopefully shockfrog doesn't come again with his speech about marihuana :wink: . I think he has a 'internet_illegal_frog_discussion_topic" detection program running 24/7. he pops up everywhere by the word illegal.
I understand your(sbreland) ideas and they are from good point of view but animals will always be trophy's for some people.

Because there's information missing I think it's incorrect to place them on a list. I am also against such lists and Mark Pulawski already pointed a little bit in the direction why.
My last 2 cents.
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Old 03-07-2007, 02:41 AM
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Yeah, I pretty much agree with you. Unfortunately I even believe my view is unrealistic, but it's just what I WISH could happen. This is such a difficult topic because you mix morals, laws, desires, and frogs all together and end up with a mess as a product. I agree with your point that there should be a notation added to any list to cover the caveats such as the Vazolinii cause, but unfortunately if we do that i wonder if the sidebars will end up being longer than the actual list!
On a separate note... Marcus, nice to see you posting here again. I have read many posts of yours in the past and am glad to see you are still checking in. Thanks for your input
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Old 03-10-2007, 02:50 PM
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About the vanzolinii - I've been meaning to modify the list for a couple weeks now as per Marcus' suggestion, finally got around to doing it this morning since the internet was out in my house for the past couple weeks. I'm glad Marcus brought this up so that we can keep the list updated and fairly accurate.

I am still of the opinion that leaving this species on the list is appropriate and certainly not doing any harm, since no one is really benefiting from the sale of these frogs aside from hobbyists. Furthermore, it is my understanding that most vanzolinii in the hobby do not stem from the quasi-legal frogs that were confiscated and subsequently whitewashed. I personally wouldn't buy them: I'd rather wait until a conservation-oriented project begins producing them so that my money goes towards saving rainforest.

-Evan
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