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Old 01-22-2007, 12:21 AM
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Default Pumilio being overly reclusive (Pictures added)

I am having a problem with my pumilio ( Isla San Cristobal ) being overly reclusive.

Here are some details on the setup, etc. they are in:

-20 gallon high tank, with leaf litter, fair amount of ground covering plants, 5 medium sized broms, lianas, etc.
-Lights go on 8am turn off 8 pm.
-Humidity is fairly high, the front of the viv is usually somewhat foggy.
-Their tank is between two ten gallon vert terrariums, on my desk.
-Temperature: high sixties during the day, and high fifties at night. (I picked up a under tank heating mat today (One of the Repti-therm ones meant for 10-20 gallon tanks) Hopefully, this should raise the temperatures somewhat.)

The frogs, I suspect they are a pair, though I have heard no calling, are being reclusive and subdued to the point that I am worried. The 'female' spends her days down the same brom leaf, not even venturing out halfway up the leaf. I have not seen her in a different spot in over a week. She is alive so I assume that she is eating. She has done this before, staying in a brom leaf for one or two weeks at a time, then changing locations and staying there etc. But, again, she must be going out sometime to feed otherwise she'd die.

The 'male' on the other hand, is slightly more active. He spends most of the time I am home in a brom leaf. The same one too, every day. I will occasionally find him poking around on the floor of the tank, etc. but not as much as would be considered normal.

I have several theories as to their shyness:

1.) Temperature, I admit it, the temperature has been much to low for these frogs preferences. However, I can't be keeping the house or even room heating at 75. It would just be too much money. I picked up a heating mat and stuck it on the back of the tank behind the area the frogs are hanging out in. I have a thermometer in the tank so I am keeping an eye on the temps.

2.) Disruption, although I don't think this is as big of a factor as temps. The frogs are on my desk, maybe two feet away from the computer. When I am home, I spend a fair amount of time on the computer. Usually, music is playing. Is it possible the frogs are disturbed from me being so close constantly, the music, the vibrations from the desk being bumped,etc.?

I got these guys on the third of november, and I remember the male being a little more bold and exploring, (the temps were warmer in November). The female has always been shy, but not this extreme.


Does anyone have any advice or suggestions as to something I could do. Hopefully, the added heat will help them out a little and create a warmer environment. Apart from that, I don't really know what to do.


Thanks in advance, I appreciate any comments.

Regards,
Raymond

Edit: Here's a picture of the vivarium, with some crude drawings of where the frogs are almost all of the time:

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Old 01-22-2007, 12:52 AM
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Your music isn't bothering them. Frogs are able to filter out "white noise," as distinguished from calls and alarms that are important to their survival. Otherwise, they probably just need some time, provided that you actually have a male/female pair in the same tank, and somewhat higher temperatures will certainly help. The frogs may just be hunkering in their comfort zone. The high 50's is too cold for this species at night, and the high 60's for daytime, isn't enough to activate them. They can survive it, but you can't expect much else.
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Old 01-22-2007, 12:59 AM
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How can you be sure they are a pair if you havent seen or heard calling? any eggs?
I`d be worried they weren`t a pair and one is a dominant female.
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm
How can you be sure they are a pair if you havent seen or heard calling? any eggs?
I`d be worried they weren`t a pair and one is a dominant female.
I suspect them to be a pair, but I am far from sure. I purchased a 'probable pair' and I recieved these guys. No eggs so far. Some breeding would be wonderful, but for now, I'd be happy with just some more activity.

I'm judging on body shape, although you can't really be too accurate with pumilio using this method.

I did however see the 'male' "puff his sides" when standing in front of the 'female'. A behavior my friend's pumilio male does when it is about to call. But then, mine just walked off, and that was the end of that.

Would it be a good idea to seperate them? I could put one in a temporary tank for a couple weeks and observe them both.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:16 AM
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Don't separate them, just keep them warmer. Frogs are cold blooded and don't make their own heat, so since you are keeping them cooler than their ideal temperatures for the species, they aren't as active, and certainly won't call or attempt to breed until this is corrected. They simply can't. 65 at night and up to 80 during the day, but at least in the mid 70's.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:19 AM
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Size is incredibly unreliable when determining pumilio gender. In fact, my male yellow belly pumilio it much larger than the female. In regards to activity, I agree with Patty--temps need to go up lots.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slaytonp
Don't separate them, just keep them warmer. Frogs are cold blooded and don't make their own heat, so since you are keeping them cooler than their ideal temperatures for the species, they aren't as active, and certainly won't call or attempt to breed until this is corrected. They simply can't. 65 at night and up to 80 during the day, but at least in the mid 70's.
Thanks Patty.

Hopefully this heating pad should help somewhat. If not, is there something else that can be done to raise the temperatures besides heating the entire room. Could a small heating rock or something be put into the vivarium with a complete barrier around it so there would be NO way for the frogs to contact it? I know heating rocks are a no-no when left exposed in the tank, but is it still out of the question if the frogs can't get near them?

I appreciate the help everyone.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond
Quote:
Originally Posted by slaytonp
Don't separate them, just keep them warmer. Frogs are cold blooded and don't make their own heat, so since you are keeping them cooler than their ideal temperatures for the species, they aren't as active, and certainly won't call or attempt to breed until this is corrected. They simply can't. 65 at night and up to 80 during the day, but at least in the mid 70's.
Thanks Patty.

Hopefully this heating pad should help somewhat. If not, is there something else that can be done to raise the temperatures besides heating the entire room. Could a small heating rock or something be put into the vivarium with a complete barrier around it so there would be NO way for the frogs to contact it? I know heating rocks are a no-no when left exposed in the tank, but is it still out of the question if the frogs can't get near them?

I appreciate the help everyone.
Think about how moist it is in a tank. Do you really want wires in there, especially on an element not intended to get wet?
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:36 AM
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I second getting your temps up maybe ten degrees on both day and night temps .

How about adding another or bigger lights to get the temps up a little ?

But it might just be that it's just the way they are . I have one Cristobal female that if I actually see it out once every two or three weeks I'm shocked , and if its for more than ten seconds I'm lucky . She's been that way since I got it .

But if you get it a little warmer in there they should get more active .
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedart
Think about how moist it is in a tank. Do you really want wires in there, especially on an element not intended to get wet?
There would be ways around that, but I see your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pigface
I second getting your temps up maybe ten degrees on both day and night temps .

How about adding another or bigger lights to get the temps up a little ?

But it might just be that it's just the way they are . I have one Cristobal female that if I actually see it out once every two or three weeks I'm shocked , and if its for more than ten seconds I'm lucky . She's been that way since I got it .

But if you get it a little warmer in there they should get more active .
I was thinking about the lighting actually. Right now, I have 1 80watt shoplight over a row of 2 ten verts and the 20high. Maybe I'll put my 20 vert project on hold and upgrade to this:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/P ... 2004+22737

Either the 48" version, or two 24" ones since the four footers are on backorder. Now I just need to gather up 30 more dollars.....

Think this might heat the tank a good amount. I'm assuming it puts off some heat as it is a compact flourescant light. My shop light puts off next to no heat.
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Old 01-22-2007, 04:33 AM
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Much too cold for pumies. Some can take temps in the low 80's. I would keep them in the upper end of the 70's and low 70's reaching high 60's at night.

I see I agree with Patty. Hi Patty!!!!
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:03 AM
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You can also get one of those warm oil space heaters to warm the whole room. They look like a an old register heater and put off a very soft heat. I used to use one in my basement during the winter time, they are not expensive to operate.
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Old 01-22-2007, 11:23 AM
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You might try putting a light strip directly on top of the tank to warm things up a bit. I found when I had our pumilio up on the 2nd floor where it is cooler I could keep them nice and warm that way.

Secondly, while your music might not be bothering them, I suspect that you being so close to the viv and potentially bumping the desk might not increase their desire to be out and roaming around. Hard to say though because for some frogs that wouldn't bother them at all.

Bill
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Old 01-22-2007, 01:44 PM
 
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I also think a good way to heat up the tank is to put a small light strip on top. That way the top end of the tank should get up to warmer temps. Since they are arboreol for the most part, they would benefit from it greatly.
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Old 01-22-2007, 02:14 PM
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I would try a bigger, more powerful lighting system. Depending on the venitlation you have, that may provide the extra heat you need. Other than this, I see three relatively easy options for boosting heat in a controlable manner:

1.
A submersible heater can be placed in the leca layer under the substrate. Just buy a good submersible with a thermostat and set it a little above the desired temp. It will heat the water underneith, which will in turn raise your viv temps. Simply unplug when it is warm enough that you don't need it.

2. Purchase one of those heating elements that screws into a light socket and place it behind the viv facing the glass (but not too close as you don't want to crack the glass). The constant heat will raise temps. I suspect this is harder to gauge and have not actually tried it myself.

3, As already stated, get a small heater for the room. I would recommend purchaing a good ceramic space heater (the ceramic ones are most efficient I believe) with a digital thermostat and thermometer. They run between $70 and $100 and do not consume incredible amounts of power (but it will cost more than the first two options).
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Old 01-22-2007, 09:30 PM
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Holy crap, how cold is your house :shock: Lol, try getting the temps up like everyone said, but be careful with those UTH's as some stick to glass permanently, and some could crack the glass if the temps difference shocks it too much...You will want to try the bigger lighting system, but make sure that at night all vents are completely sealed (preferably with glass) to keep the heat in. This method is how I keep my tinc cage warm even if it gets to 40* (they are by a window) around the cage.
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