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Old 01-21-2007, 04:09 AM
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Default strange pumilio behavior, anyone else witness this?

I just changed my whole frog room around to maximize space (thanks Rob!), and was watching my mancreek group. I noticed a froglet on a leaf and then witnessed some very strange behavior from the adult male. The froglet was moving around the leaf until the male approached, then it sat very still and flatened its body against the leaf. The male moved towards the froglet and begand to rub his cloaca on the froglet for about a minute, then both frogs went their seperate ways. This was much different than aggressive behavior, which I have seen many times before and can tell the difference.

Has anyone else witnessed this behavior before? My only guess on the reason for this activity would be to pass on antibodies to the froglet. Is there any documentation about dart frog parental activity after the froglets morph out. I've always assumed that froglets that are egg fed would get antibodies passed on to them while they were tads, when the mother would enter the water the tad is in to deposit eggs.

Anyways, maybe this isn't anything new, but it was very interesting to watch.

Justin
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Old 01-23-2007, 07:34 AM
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So I take it either nobody has seen this before or I just can't break the stigma of never getting a response to any of my posts. I shouldn't be put off, I think a post about frogs eating fish deserves 36 more responses than this post....... :roll:
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Old 01-23-2007, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jschroeder
So I take it either nobody has seen this before or I just can't break the stigma of never getting a response to any of my posts. I shouldn't be put off, I think a post about frogs eating fish deserves 36 more responses than this post....... :roll:
I don't keep Pumilio, only intermedius and Lamasi, I am sorry that all the experience keepers out there hasn't noticed your post, which by the way is full of information, Anyway just felt like dropping you a line of encouragement to send away this feeling of neglect and to break the stigma curse.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:31 PM
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I'm bummed there haven't been more responses too because this is a really interesting observation. I've never seen anything like it and am having a hard time even trying to come up with a plausible explaination. The idea that an adult would transfer skin secretions to a froglet in this way seems too bizarre even for a bizarre animal like pumilio. But I have no other explaination other than it is a very strange and interesting behavior you described. You could be on to something big. Remember that egg feeding was first observed in a vivarium.
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Old 01-23-2007, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by bbrock
You could be on to something big. Remember that egg feeding was first observed in a vivarium.
No way! Really! Wow.
Hope this thread gets more interest. Hoping to see some discussion here. Me I haven't got a clue!
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Old 01-23-2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
I just changed my whole frog room around to maximize space (thanks Rob!), and was watching my mancreek group. I noticed a froglet on a leaf and then witnessed some very strange behavior from the adult male. The froglet was moving around the leaf until the male approached, then it sat very still and flatened its body against the leaf. The male moved towards the froglet and begand to rub his cloaca on the froglet for about a minute, then both frogs went their seperate ways. This was much different than aggressive behavior, which I have seen many times before and can tell the difference.
Can you give a bit more description?
WHen you say 'froglet was moving around' do you mean actively hopping around hunting?
Is this a recently morphed froglet? If so, how long since it 'left the water'?
WHen you say 'rubbed cloaca on froglet' what orientation were they in? WHere did the male put his cloaca? ON the froglet head? cloaca? whole body?

Interesting observations! Hopefully some other breeders come foreward with other similar observations so that we can come up with a reasonable, testable, hypothesis
Sorry for not replying earlier...I've been not posting on dB a lot...and i thought a lot of others would comment on this...
~B
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Old 01-23-2007, 04:45 PM
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are you using calcium gluconate with your pumilio froglets? it would be interesting if this behavior is related with the survival of the egg feeder froglets past the 6 months.
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Old 01-23-2007, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
WHen you say 'froglet was moving around' do you mean actively hopping around hunting?
The froglet was exhibiting normal hunting behavior just prior to this


Quote:
Is this a recently morphed froglet? If so, how long since it 'left the water'?
I would guess this froglet is 1-2 weeks out of the water. I use to pull froglets the day they morphed out with a zero success rate (as to not loose them in the viv). Now, what I've noticed is that if I leave them alone, the froglets will usually stay down in the brom for quite some time before fully venturing out and they seem to be much more healthy.


Quote:
WHen you say 'rubbed cloaca on froglet' what orientation were they in? WHere did the male put his cloaca? ON the froglet head? cloaca? whole body?
This was interesting. The male wasn't in a amplexus postition, but rather he moved around the froglet in a circle as he faced away from the froglet. The male was doing a lot of foot tapping too (like he does while fertilizing eggs). The cloaca contaced between 50-75% of the froglets body, but nowhere specific.


Quote:
are you using calcium gluconate with your pumilio froglets?
I'm not using calcium gluconate with my froglets. I have heard about this before, but I always thought the survivability was much shorter (2-3 months) without proper calcium. The reason I don't suppliment with the calcium gluconate is because I keep old wingless fruitflies around for dusting with supplement (the old cultures produce very small flies that these guys can handle) and after 1-2 months, they are big enough to take full sized wingless FF.

Thanks for the responses, I shouldn't be so cynical. My posts are no more important than anyone elses, I just really wanted to get some feedback on this.

Justin
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Old 01-23-2007, 10:38 PM
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Justin,

Sometimes we just don't know what to say... but it's still a great observation.

How often did you see this? Did you see any liquid, like the male "pee" on it?

Sometimes I wonder if calcium supplement given to froglets is not so much for the nutritional value but rather for raising the pH.


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Old 01-24-2007, 01:17 AM
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Justin-

When I first read about your observation I thought it sounded like the male was establishing dominance. It doesn't matter to him that is was only a 2wk old froglet which, would not be competing for breeding grounds or girls, but maybe similar to lion cubs establishing rank in a playful fashion, monkeys screwing every member of the tribe, or frogs pinning each other to the ground. It would truly be an amazing discovery to link this to skin secretions or passing something through the derma layer.

Maybe this is how froglets <pumilio> get their initial defense so they have a fighting chance in the wild to ward off preditors. I'm not hypothesizing that this is how frogs get their initial toxicity in which they could clone, but rather the parents may transfer just enough toxins over that if the froglet meets a predator before it can build up its own toxicity through diet (bridge the gap) they may have a higher chance for survival. Just an idea and with no supporting data.
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