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Old 07-11-2006, 04:04 AM
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Default Albino dart frogs aka 'oi vay the albinos already'

Here is a link to the picture of the albino leuc.

http://www.vanishingjewels.com/Vanishin ... oLeuc.html
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:08 PM
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are you sure it is albino? it looked as if it had black eyes.
also it has brown on it. i talked to barry levinson about these and, although it seems to be a recessive mutation, i dont think what you have is albino. are these the same "charlie brown" leucomelas that you had years ago? it looks to be more of a hypomelanistic or leucistic.
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:58 PM
 
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Quote:
All offspring eggs from albino pairs will be white and the tadpoles are transparent so you can clearly see internal organs of the tadpoles. Het leucomelas will throw occasional transparent tadpoles that will originate from a black egg when the gene is matched.
This is interesting. I have a pair of Patricia tincs that produce amelanistic tads/frogs at a ratio of 1:3 all from black eggs. Do you have pictures of the white eggs from albino pairs? If so, I would love to see them (my e-mail is [email protected]). The amelanistic tadpoles are completely white and you can see the internal organs as you've described but I've never received one from a white egg...
~B
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Old 07-11-2006, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm
are you sure it is albino? it looked as if it had black eyes.
also it has brown on it. i talked to barry levinson about these and, although it seems to be a recessive mutation, i dont think what you have is albino. are these the same "charlie brown" leucomelas that you had years ago? it looks to be more of a hypomelanistic or leucistic.
i think the term "albino" is just being loosly applied. there is a thread on it somewhere on here. most seem to be aware that its not true albinoism but that all these odd colored frogs are just being lumped under the heading albino as a catch-all description. they definatly are not leucistic as that would be lacking all skin pigment. its not quite clear where some of them fall.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:20 AM
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These posts were split from the Vanishing Jewels ad....

Bill
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:36 AM
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thanks bill, now i can say what i was thinking. how can dart froggers be such purist about breeding true lines but then "loosly" use the word "albino"? i mean, these are clearly not albinos, just call them what they are, like snake,gecko etc. breeders do. these are neat frogs, lets just figure out what they really are.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:36 AM
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In my humble opinion, that is not an attractive frog. Brown and yellow just isn't quite as nice as black and yellow. So, it must be others driving the "highly sought after" status these things allegedly have.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:43 AM
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The term "Het" is also being used... Does anyone know how this is breeding out? Has actual data been collected regarding proportions of "albinos" to hets? Is one of the breeding pair an "albino"?
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:43 AM
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i agree with you, there are very few albino critters i like the looks of, one is the lavender form of albino reticulated pythons(though the normal coloring, especially locales that are more silver far surpase the beauty of any albino IMHO). these frogs comand a higher price because theyare not common and the demand will support the price. just cause they cost more doesnt mean they look better(the most expensive snakes tend to be pure white morphs, yech!). i think theya re interesting and its neat knowing that the genes for these mutations are floating around but there are much prettier frogs i want to spend my money on
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:47 AM
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Sorry, I didn't realize these were for sale. I wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes . . . and I doubt my comments will change anyone else's mind. I assumed this was from the Vanishing Jewels book. Still, not my cup of tea.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:49 AM
 
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IMO, from what I have seen in the snake/lizard hobby, these are hypomelanistic(hypos for short). This would simply be the reduction of, but not complete lack of, a certain pigment. In this case it would be black. This is not to uncommon in many, if not all snake species, and many lizards. Too bad they aren't true albinos :cry:
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:53 AM
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didnt realize you were "stepping on toes" yah just stated your opinion(which i agree with) no different in stating you like a particular locale/morph of pum's over another
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
IMO, from what I have seen in the snake/lizard hobby, these are hypomelanistic(hypos for short)
i was thinking the same thing. like i said several posts back, albino is just a "catch all" term being used for these leucs and several other species that have tossed out some odd colored offspring. i think most of the serious hobbiests realize they are not true albinos but accept the term anyway to describe them as until more is understood about how the gene are passed its hard to actually nail them down into a specific category. i to think these will be classed as "hypos" in the future
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rattler_mt
didnt realize you were "stepping on toes" yah just stated your opinion(which i agree with) no different in stating you like a particular locale/morph of pum's over another
Thanks. I think we're in agreement. BTW, I like the Man Creek pum's, followed by the Christobals. :lol:
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:38 AM
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i like the Man Creek types(red/orange with blue/grey legs type morphs/locales), personally i cant stand the basti's of any color i think its the polka dots that get me. i can do blotches but i cant stand polka dots on a solid background :lol:
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:26 AM
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The person selling the albino leucs is Patrcia. The patricia tinc is named after her because she funded the last 300 frogs brought out of Surinam in 99. The alanis was dicovered as well and a couple of others. What I am trying to say is she does have a lot of experience behind her back in breeding frogs. Though I have to say that those are not true albino leucs. She is getting out of the business after so many years and she is selling her collection. Too bad she all ready sold most of her F1 breeding pairs.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:44 PM
 
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Quote:
The term "Het" is also being used... Does anyone know how this is breeding out? Has actual data been collected regarding proportions of "albinos" to hets? Is one of the breeding pair an "albino"?
I can't specifically talk about the leucs as I have no idea about their system. However, my patricia tincs are phenotypically normal and produce a/hypo-melanistic tadpoles at a rate of 25%, suggesting that the parents are indeed Hets for this trait.
I have yet to breed my mutant offspring and don't really have plans to. Therefore, since I haven't backbred anything, I guess I'm not really providing much information...but I hope that what little I did provide helps.
~B
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Old 07-14-2006, 03:23 AM
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Honestly, i think they would fall under the term "albino"... they just aren't as "albino" as most of you would like for them to fall under that term lol. Look at the albino alanis whose body color was that odd purple....

albino just means a partial or complete distruption of the expression of melanophores in the animal... it definately isn't a normal leuc as the black isn't there.... and what other coloration and pigmentations are below the melanophores that we don't see? Or are we seeing the pigmentation of something below the skin of the frog (like in the alanis)? We could easily be seeing just a layer of iridiphores (I bet the "mocha" has a nice metallic glitteriness to it) that is normally blocked from view by melanophores.

I just find it entertaining how every time this thread comes up, if it doesn't fit the stereotypical idea of an albino (red eyes, flesh color where any black or brown was) the animal can't be albino, so we jump into the ever scientific terms the reptile hobby has adapted...
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Old 07-14-2006, 11:58 AM
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it`s not flesh color where any brown or black or blue was, it`s turned to shades of pinks and yellows in most animals(disrupted). ive worked w/ a lot of other animals in the pet trade. ive never seen an albino that retains any brown or black color(melanin). we call any animal w/ any brown left hypomelanistic(reduced melanin which would make it brown?). this is also a recessive trait. unless you get the testing done and tell me whether it`s t+ or t- etc(or if it has red eyes, i still havent got a reply to my question) you dont have any idea what you have.
the bronze forms of auratus are reduced melanin(compared to a green and black), are these just hypo or albino auratus?
i believe she has a recessive mutation but i dont think it`s albino. i`d personally label it hypomelanistic if it has black eyes.
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:24 AM
 
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Words from the snake world where i have spent most of my time.

Albino is a total lack of melanin. There is no such thing as kind of albino, or almost albino. It either is or it isn't. A partial disruption in the production of melanin results in lesser amounts and a lighter appearance, and are termed hypomelanistic. A greater amount of melanin produced will result in darker than normal, and would be hypermelanistic.

If on the other hand the primary pigment in the normal animal is yellow/brown, the lack of the pigment would result in an animal termed axanthic. If all other pigments were non existant, the animal would be xanthic.

Different types of animals have different primary pigments, so depending on the species the phrasing changes. But from looking at the pics of "albino" leuc compared to a normal, I believe the term hypo would be closest to correct.

Without breeding the animals out, it would be difficult to determine what exactly is going on with that particular bloodline. My guess would be that breeding 2 of the "albino"s would not result in 100% "albino" offspring, but a mix of "albino" and normals. Should that happen the trait would appear to be a dom/codom, and not simple recessive as albino, and axanthism is.

Having said that, I would be interested in seeing what the super form of the codom trait would look like.
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Old 07-17-2006, 02:00 AM
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What do you think...Albino? Bottom right.


It is a yellowback tinc and just hatched before the others.
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Old 07-17-2006, 12:02 PM
 
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Hi Jason,
THat's exactly what our tads look like before they hatch that are lacking the blue/black as froglets.
~B
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:21 PM
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I think we just need to realize that the term "albino" is going to be used very loosely because there aren't too many people that have the genetics background and/or equipment to really call these animals exactly what they are. If and when someone does determine the proper classification I think we will certainly start using the correct term but because we are only recently starting to see a lot of the genetic color mutations it will be a while before enough of them are in the hobby for the exact genetic terms to be determined.

As far as albino leucs being "highly sought after in the hobby" that's just marketing. I think there are certainly a few people in the hobby who really want to work with albinos but I don't think you can make that statement across the board. A frog like histrionicus is "highly sought after in the hobby".

One more thought while on "albinos": the "albino" auratus that I have, which are certainly not true albinos, when bred together produce 100% clear tadpoles. So what does that make the trait?
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Old 07-19-2006, 06:59 PM
 
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Robb,
Are your auratus wild caught? Or are they siblings?
What ratio of albino-ish offspring do you get from this pair?
~B
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Old 07-19-2006, 08:59 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmelancon

One more thought while on "albinos": the "albino" auratus that I have, which are certainly not true albinos, when bred together produce 100% clear tadpoles. So what does that make the trait?
You would need to breed each animal to a normal to be sure. Assuming the trait (whatever it is) is simple recessive, then you have a pair of animals homozygous for that trait. If you breed 1 of the animals to a normal and receive all normal appearing offspring, then breed the offspring back to the parent and receive approx. 50/50 normal/with visual trait, you have simple recessive. Breeding the offspring together should result in approx. 25% of the resulting offspring with visual trait.

If on the other hand you breed 1 to a normal and receive approx. 50/50 of normal/with visual trait, the gene is co-dominant.

In this case, since all your offspring show visible trait, there is the chance that you have a pair that are the "super" form of the co-dominant trait. That is even the the trait should display a 50/50 mix, both of your animals carry the gene in both areas. To be sure you would need to breed the offspring to normals and see if you get a 50/50 split. Since genetics in this case are all about playing the odds, you would need to have multiple clutches over time in order to determine exactly what is going on.

Clear as mud?

BTW, what do the clear tads look like once they've morphed?
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Old 09-07-2006, 04:08 PM
 
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Hey everyone, I've been watching this post as I actually purchased three of the vanishing jewels leucs that started this thing as part of a much larger group. I am not sure what I think about them yet, but I will keep you updated if I learn anything. I did however stumble upon a picture of what I would call an albino today. I don't know if it is ok to post someone else's picture, so here is a link to the page. Scroll all the way to the bottom to see it (albino auratus).

http://www.brianstropicals.com/ohio_dart_frogs.html

As far as my 'brown leucs', I really like them in the correct light: they almost look bronze, but I think it is hard to beat the contrast of a plain yellow and black leuc. I also received a tadpole with the group I bought that is from one of the 'brown' leucs and a plain leuc. The tadpole is very light tan colored, and I can see it's organs which is cool. It has back legs now and is getting large (I will try to get a picture later). I haven't decided what I think about further breeding of my 'brown' leucs. From what I understand, they are offspring of plain leucs, so I don't feel like there is anything wrong with breeding them with the plain leucs. From what the guy I bought them from said, he had one such clutch from a brown/regular pair and there were 2 light brown tads and 6 black tads, but none survived.
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Old 09-07-2006, 04:36 PM
 
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Those would be true albino.
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Old 09-08-2006, 07:51 AM
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Ive seen Patricia's stock of breeder 'albino leucs.' From how she described, it sounds more like line breeding. Its been a while back and I absorbed much info that night but she said something along the lines of throwing an odd colored frog and basically bred it over and over until she has what is on her website. I noticed too that the eyes were still rather dark for an albino. I thought if it were an actual albino that the blk would appear more pink.

Either way though, she is a wealth of information. Shame to see someone as she get out of the business. BTW she still has many froglets for sale.
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