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Old 05-06-2006, 02:08 PM
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Default what are we doing to the wild populations?

with all these recent imports, what is happeneing to the populations these frogs are being taken from?

as much as i would like to be the first to get "x pumilio" or to get some wild caught "new blood", what is happening to frogs in the wild?

are they not dwindling away allready due to habitat change and destruction? should we be promoting the mass removal of these species from the wild?

im sure that a lot of frogs could be successfully brought into the country and bred, which should help ensure their survival. but what happens when these frogs are offered up to the general public and less than seasoned verterans purchase them? the less experienced people are possibly going to have a hard time keeping/breeding them.

im not knocking any one who is selling or buying these frogs, i just want to know what others thoughts are. this seems to be a hobby that is interested in the conservation of animals. so it kind of surprises me at the interest of people wanting to get these frogs without any collection data and without knowing the status of these populations in the wild.
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Old 05-06-2006, 02:43 PM
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Hey, good question. First off, these are supposedly "farm raised" frogs, but who really knows right??? Frogs however tend to live in rather high populations in a limited amount of area, and hopefully there are measures put in place to moniter how many are taken from the wild. If they are breeding them in the greenhouses like the farm is supposedly doing, then I wouldn't worry too much about it, but if they are in fact wild caught animals, over exploitation may become a real problem with these populations in the near future. Maybe that is why man creek and chiriqui's haven't been coming in as often??? It is hard to say though how this will affect the population without properly assessing the population size and density. Good question though, i'd like to see others idea's and thoughts as I really don't know what is going on with the farms

ed parker
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Old 05-06-2006, 03:21 PM
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I personally don't think that the collectors or farm breeders give a #^&$ about the populations. They are using the resources available to them to make a buck. They are collecting native populations of frogs to them, its kinda like if people in Europe had a craze for green treefrogs - sure, there would be some people that would collect all they could to turn a quick buck.

I just wish when they did collect them, they would label the frogs by locale. By the pictures seen, I foresee people accidently, unknowingly breeding the Red Cristobal with the Red Rio Blanco.
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Old 05-06-2006, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Mantellaprince20
First off, these are supposedly "farm raised" frogs, but who really knows right???

ed parker
well i didnt know that they were farm raised. it makes it a little better but like you ask "who really knows right?"

i like your assesment of what the populations are now. maybe all the ones being collected are being monitored to the extent that we are only taking away the most abundant frogs. is this still good though? hopefully they are all farm raised.

Originally Posted by rompida
I personally don't think that the collectors or farm breeders give a #^&$ about the populations. They are using the resources available to them to make a buck.
this is what worries me. if it is possible for some one in another country to pass of WC frogs as FR, what would stop them?
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Old 05-06-2006, 05:48 PM
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My question is, how much control goes into making
sure that the frogs are kept separated at the farms.
Is what we are seeing hybrids that are crossing in
the greenhouse farms because that are thrown in
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Old 05-06-2006, 06:09 PM
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If we aren't protecting habitat, we aren't protecting the frog populations.

I think the operations might differ in this regard- INIBICO was set up specifically in order to create profit while protecting forest.

I don't know about the other farms, but would love to hear. What are they doing for the habitat? Anything?

If your frog dollar isn't going towards habitat conservation, or something like the Atelopus project, I would argue that not only are you not helping, but you are hurting the sustainability of the frogs in the wild.

I'm consistantly amazed by the numbers of folks online who are buying wild caught frogs: Mantellas, group-breeding treefrogs, dendrobatids. I realize that the lines were all "wild-caught" at one point- but we should be well past that as a hobby now. Wildlife collection is an ugly, destructive trade, and I'm really glad we have groups like INIBICO trying to change that. But it boils down to personal responsibility. Long term, what has your collection of frogs done to aid conservation of frogs? We vote with our dollar- you gonna vote for protected forests and sustainable frog production or the continued ransacking of biological wealth?
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Old 05-07-2006, 07:55 AM
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I foresee the Dart hobby being the saltwater/reef hobby all over again if we don't start supporting things like th Inibico project, and start self regulating our hobby.

Unlike the saltwater/reef hobby however, we have the ability to relatively easily breed any PDF in captivity. What we should really be working on is spreading our sp. throughout the hobby to make them well established so they don't have to be taken out of the wild. And don't buy from unscrupulous dealers. You will find that almost every real saltwater hobbiest will not shop at places like Petco where the fish stock are collected with cyanide. We should be doing the same thing. If somebody is abusing the privelige of keeping PDFs then don't patronize their buisness. Things like this are the only way that we can keep politians from ignorantly outlawing keeping PDFs. Not that I hate polititians or anything, but they tend to see only the bare minimum of issues like this before passing laws and regulations.
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