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View Poll Results: How often do you dust your frogs food with supplements?
1 time a week 31 6.84%
2 times a week 41 9.05%
3 times a week 164 36.20%
7 times a week 182 40.18%
whenever I feel like it 20 4.42%
never 15 3.31%
Voters: 453. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-17-2006, 11:44 PM
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Default How often do you dust your frogs food with supplements?

Ok I am posting this to get some general ideas on what the average is. So how often do you dust/supplement your frogs food?
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Old 01-17-2006, 11:54 PM
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When you say "suppliment", do you mean dusting with suppliments or do you mean supplimental feeders like springtails, woodlice, etc.?

I dust every feeding and feed 3 times a week for adult frogs.
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Old 01-18-2006, 12:17 AM
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Yes I mean dusting.... Sorry maybe I should have made that a bit more clear.
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Old 01-18-2006, 01:45 AM
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I use 50:50 Herptivite and Rep-cal with every feeding and typically feed every day. The only time I don't dust is when I want to give the frogs a little more of a challenge instead of just sucking up flys while sitting on their ass .

Jeff
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:07 AM
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I dust at every feeding with 1:1 Herptivite:Rep-Cal and I feed daily (the exception being young froglets that are fed twice daily). The only exception to the above is that I dust once a week with 50% finely ground paparika and 50% 1:1 Herptivite:Rep-Cal for frogs containing orange/red coloration, i.e. santa isabel tricolor etc.

Bill
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Old 01-18-2006, 05:53 AM
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I guess I technically dust everyfeeding as I alternate Rep-Cal and Herpetvite at home and alternate a custom blend and calcium carbonate at work but then I also do not feed every day unless it is froglets....

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Old 01-18-2006, 06:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
I guess I technically dust everyfeeding as I alternate Rep-Cal and Herpetvite at home and alternate a custom blend and calcium carbonate at work but then I also do not feed every day unless it is froglets....
Ed
Do you alternate to avoid any interaction between the supplements per chance? How quickly do the two supplements interact?
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Old 01-18-2006, 10:47 AM
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At home I do alternate to avoid interactions but it may not be the one expected. If you alternate, then you avoid the vitamin A-D3-E competition for uptake (which for A-D3 is not a problem for Herpetivite as it used beta-carotene for its source of A but is still an issue for E). This is an immediate issue as the competition occurs in the intestional tract. Alternating also reduces the risks of overdosing on the fat soluable vitamins (remember to keep in mind, these are toxic in too large an amount and amphibians are hardwired during periods of abundence (which is a daily occurance in most frog tanks) to stuff themselves which can lead to oversupplementation. (Oversupplementation can also occur with calcium carbonate).

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Old 01-18-2006, 11:50 AM
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Ed are you saying that mixing Herpetivite, and recal can cause an interaction between the two?
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Old 01-18-2006, 01:23 PM
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The label says to mix them together, if they mixed them, the beadlets of beta carotene in herptivite, may possibly be damaged during manufacturing by the calcium in rep cal...... Before feeding insects, thoroughly mix a 1:1 ratio

I dust 2 to 3 days, and then skip a day, but I have read it is best to dust every day, so that the frogs don't get picky about eating the dusted flies, (although, mine don't seem to mind either way)and some of the flies will be cleaned off by the time they find them all.

I think I will start alternating the powders, after reading Ed's posts. Sounds like he has good reasoning for this.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rad3Dad
The label says to mix them together, if they mixed them, the beadlets of beta carotene in herptivite, may possibly be damaged during manufacturing by the calcium in rep cal...... Before feeding insects, thoroughly mix a 1:1 ratio
It's some sort of actual chemical degradation or something along those lines... that's why you shouldn't premix a big batch and feed over time.
I don't have any darts yet... but for my other animals I alternate. And I use Miner-al cause it's VERY finely ground and seems to stick better.
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Old 01-18-2006, 02:39 PM
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If mixed, the fat soluable vitamins will catalyze a more rapid oxidation of each other (which is why Rep-Cal and Herptevite are seperate with one haveing A and E and the other D3) than if they are kept seperate (however they still will oxidize which is why the recommendation is to replace the supplements every six months or so).

However in the digestive tract, A, D3 and E compete for uptake by the animal. This is why the ratio of the vitamins in the supplement should be somewhere close to 10 to 1 to 0.1 (A to D3 to E) as large variations outside of this range can cause deficiencies of one or more of the vitamins (this was (may still be) the most common cause of "MBD" (metabolic bone disease which is actually a group of diseases that present the same symptoms by disrupting calcium metabolism) when the diet contained excessive vitamin A). I have a whopping headache so I am not going to check the labels but you need to make sure that if you are mixing the two before dusting that the resulting ratio of A3 and E are correct which may cause you to change the amount you mix.
By alternating the dustings with the feedings, there is less issue with uptake of the fat soluable vitamins as the frog can store the excess in the fat, liver and skin (depending on the vitamin)..

This also allows for alternation of calcium supplementation as excessive calcium can also cause conditional deficiencies and in extreme excess and a high fat diet cause the deposition of calcium salts in the digestive tract.

If you come to IAD, I will again be presenting a nutritional workshop for amphibians which is expanded from the one I gave last year.

Ed
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Old 01-18-2006, 11:51 PM
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Great info Ed and I really like your idea of alternating.

I missed your talk last year, but will have to make sure to make it this year. I need to begin making those plans soon.

I think this year I will get a shirt that has KYLE1745 on the front and back so people can find me. I had way too many people tell me "I missed you" or "I did not see you" last year. :-)
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Old 01-19-2006, 01:59 AM
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I alternate as well and probably skip a day here and there (when I'm pressed for time). Only I use Reptile Tri-Cal (synthetic Ca sources so no danger of heavy metal contaminants as found in oyster shell - check your supllement's ingredients) and Nekton Rep-color as my calcium and vitmain supplements, respectively. I feed my adult mantellas 1-2x's a day in the summer and 1-2x's per week in the winter.
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Old 01-20-2006, 02:23 AM
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I dust at every feeding but feed only twice a week. You need to keep in mind that depending on how much you feed, there will be food available for days after you first feed. In my case I feed enough to where there are flies in the tank usually a couple of days later. So the days I feed they are eating dusted insects, and the other days they are eating non-dusted as the flies have cleaned themselves by that time. I use Super Preen which is actually a Bird vitamin powder and Jurasipark (sp?) calcium. I like the Super Preen because it is an extremely fine powder and it tends to stick better and longer than other vitamin powders I have used. Also the Super Preen has D3 so I don't get the calcium with additional D3.
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Old 01-22-2006, 03:49 AM
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I don't know, I've been using mostly Repcal by itself and I dust two or three times a week, and I feed every day.

I should, and probably will go back to it, use Treefrog Dust with every feeding (or every other one)
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Old 01-22-2006, 02:29 PM
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Rep-Cal by itself is not a balanced supplement as it only contains calcium and D3 and if this is the predominate source of supplementation in the diet of the frogs then you run the risk of hypovitaminosis A and deficiencies in other vitamins and minerals.

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Old 01-22-2006, 03:35 PM
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Ed, is it possible to tape, or get a transcript of your IAD presentation? I think that would be of great interest to alot of people who can't go (like me 8))



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Old 01-23-2006, 02:07 PM
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I should also being doing something at frogday 2007.....

I've been trying to get something together from the power point I used last year but I used mainly bullet points and talked from them so I would have had to rewrite it with a lot of information.

I am looking at some different presentations this year so it may be possible to get my act together via that route.

I do not have the facilities to tape the talks (but if someone does, I too would like a copy).

Hmm, let me think about it some more.

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Old 01-23-2006, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Rep-Cal by itself is not a balanced supplement as it only contains calcium and D3 and if this is the predominate source of supplementation in the diet of the frogs then you run the risk of hypovitaminosis A and deficiencies in other vitamins and minerals.
Thank goodness I'm going back to using Treefrog Dust. I've been using a cyclopeeze/carrot powder/ Repcal supplement for sometime for coloration mostly.
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Old 01-23-2006, 06:33 PM
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Well carrots are a good source of betacarotene which in dart frogs can be converted into vitamin A so that lessens that concern/risk.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, make sure that the ratio of A to D3 to E does not exceed 10 to 1 to 0.1 and that you want a ratio of Ca to P between 1 and 2 to 1.

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Old 01-23-2006, 08:24 PM
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I would also think that the cyclopeeze would be definitely adding a bunch of good stuff (I used it also on my tinc because I thought she would benefit from it).

Now that you mention it, my tricolor froglets have been taking mostly my cyclopeeze/carrot powder/ repcal mixture since they morphed out. I have not experienced any problems, and they are about as large as the adults.

But, I do periodically feed out maggots that have been in a nutrient rich media.

how do I know about the ratio? For a while, I used T-rex's Carnivorous formula (2:0) no phosphorus because I assumed that a ton of feeder insects have the required amount of phosphorus, something that only herbivorous herps should get phosph in their supplement.
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Old 01-24-2006, 11:17 PM
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if i have organic oyster shell, can i powder it and use it as i would rep-cal? (just read the ingredients at the pet shop...)
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Old 01-25-2006, 11:00 PM
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i use a repto-cal spray, works pretty good, i do it almost every day or so
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Old 01-26-2006, 02:02 AM
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The phosphorus is a concern as if the ratio swings too far in the other direction of calcium, there can also be problems. I suspect this has not been recorded that often as the straing calcium carbonate supplements have not be available for any real significant length of time. If my scale at work was functioning I could do some calculations and see what the effect of straight calcium does to the ratios, but I would have concerns using just that.

Astaxantin ( the major carotenoid) in cyclopeeze may (and I stress may) have antioxident properties but it cannot be converted to retinol (vitamin A) like betacaroten can.

If you read further up in the thread, some sources of oyster shell can have levels of heavy metals as trace contaminents.

With the "repto-cal spray", what are the ingredients and thier ratios??

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Old 01-26-2006, 03:10 PM
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I feed twice a day once before I leave for work and once when I get home. I suppliment on the afternoon feeding when they are more active so it does not go to waste. I use recal and herpative. I have never heard of the carrot powder being used.
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Old 01-26-2006, 07:21 PM
 
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So whats the best powder to use??? Dendrocare,repcal, t-rex treefrog dust??

Cheers!
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Old 01-27-2006, 03:33 PM
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At home as I have mentioned elsewhere I alternate Herptivite and Rep-Cal. At work I use a custom made blend.

As long as you are within the paramaters I listed above, then you should be okay

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Old 01-28-2006, 04:00 AM
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I use treefrog dust mostly for a year, then switched to T-rex's carnivorous formula, then to Repcal. However, now I'm going back to treefrog dust. I have reared all my frogs on treefrog dust and it has done wonders. My WC mantellas came in as juveniles and quickly grew large off of it, as well as the tricolors and my tinc.

I haven't even found herptivite around here, just the repcal from petsmart. But I was more satisfied buying the treefrog dust because I don't need to buy two supplements, mix them, and chances are, I will not use all of it within a year, so why spend the money? Treefrog dust was specifically designed for frogs anyway (in fact, it was designed/ tested by the frog breeders of Sandfire Dragon Ranch), all ingredients are human food grade, and it contains small amounts of color enhancers that you will often find in many supplements that people make themselves. (such as spirulina) It also contains a tiny amount of marigold extract (which I remember is often in fish foods for caratenoid pigments), brewer's yeast, and some other things that add protein. The con though is that it's dilute, as it was designed for every feeding...for treefrogs. Fruit flies have more surface area than the larger crickets, and darts eat a ton. However, when my frogs were growing, I used it at every feeding and never had issues with vitamin poisoning. However, now I use it only about 4x a week, out of seven days.

But its really up to you. This is my personal preference. I'm probably one of the few that use it on dart frogs. So if you're more comfortable with repcal/herptivite, go for it.
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Old 01-28-2006, 04:28 AM
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I'm not sure why you think it is "dilute" as it contains a 5:1 A to D3 ratio....

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Old 01-28-2006, 04:03 PM
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Ed (or anyone else),

Do you forsee any problems nutritionally with using Herptivite two days in a row, then Rep-Cal two days in a row?

From this discussion I started alternating them, but I also alternate feeding fruit flies and flour beetle larva (primarily). As most know, fruit flies pick up alot more of the dusting supplement than flour beetle larva, so I continued to alternate the food while doing dusts two days in a row to ensure they'd get the same amount of dusting for each.

It probably would make more sense to alternate the dust every other day and double-day the food type.
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Old 01-28-2006, 08:07 PM
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Ed, I did ask you a while ago about what IU and IE means, but I believe we never came to a conclusion? It has 20,000IU, and I think dendrocare has 40,000IE. I'm not sure if they are the same thing (one is from europe, one is American) but to me it seems as if the dendrocare is more concentrated (and from hearing stories about vitamin A poisoning)...as far as Vitamin A goes.

I should have clarified. I meant "dilute" by means that it has a lot of filler stuff for added protein...even if the ratio of D3 to A higher. Somebody else here, I believe Trimtrig also uses and likes the treefrog dust.

Then again, you probably know more about nutrition, I could very well misinterpreted the nutrition facts on the bottle, but I'm pretty happy with results using it.
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Old 01-28-2006, 09:19 PM
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For IU see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_unit . IUs differ not only depending on the vitamin but the isomer of the vitamin or provitamin (for example of the three different isomers of betacarotene have significantly different IU rates).

As with the isomers, the IE (or Internation Equivalents (an unit that is not accepted as a standard, which is why it is hard to track down the definitons) differs between the different vitamins as well as thier precursors. For example with Vitamin A; 3.33 IU = 1 mcg of retinol = 1 IE or 6 mcg beta-carotene....


As for using them alternating two days running, this is probably not an issue as long as it is a consistant usage.

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Old 01-28-2006, 11:30 PM
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Here's an idea.

Ok Ed. If I feed my tinctorius everyday of the week, and approximately 20 fruit flies in one feeding, how often should I use the treefrog dust then? Once again, I did use it everyday when the frog was young and didn't have any "overdosing," but I would assume a larger frog, like a tinc SHOULD NOT have it every day, due to the amount that they eat in one sitting, vs. my tricolor who only eat about 3-5 flies in one sitting.

I say its safe to use 4-5 times a week with smaller frogs (assuming i feed every day), while the larger frogs should have it 3-4 times...this is relative to melanogastor flies though.
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Old 01-29-2006, 12:09 AM
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To get an accurate answer is going to cost you a lot of money as you would need to supply at least a pound of ffs, the dust, and the money to get them as well as the dust analyzed pre and post dusting. (Think several thousand dollars at least).

Points to consider right off the bat with the treefrog dust, the high D3 to A ratio (it should be 1:10 not 1:5) is that it was supposedly formulated to be used with crickets and not ffs (as crickets have a significantly different nutritonal profile and more dust tends to stick to ffs than to crickets).
A further point to consider is that ffs have been shown to have no vitamin A, and while crickets have very little, their slower gut transit time allows for supplementation with a carotenoid based diet.

Dendrocare actually has less vitamin A when you run the conversion (about 12,000 vs 20,000). One of the problems with the purported vitamin A toxicity with Dendrocare is that hypovitaminosis of A can also have the same symptoms as people were reporting assuming it was nutritional secondary hypothyroidism (one of the forms of MBD) such as tremors and seizures.......
I have a strong suspicion that the issues with the Dendrocare were due to degredation of vitamin A (catalyzed by the mixing of the vitamins) during transit.

Ed
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Old 01-30-2006, 02:32 PM
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i mix enough herptavite and repcal on a 1:1 ratio for about 2 days dusting. i add tree frog dust and nekton msa 1X a week and nekton vit e 2x a month. i dust every feeding of ff's and feed them once or twice a day to all frogs(adults and froglets/juvis). for a second feeding to the adults and juvis i feed very lightly dusted crickets 2-3days a week. occasionally i throw in undusted springtail boosts to the tanks or undusted wax worms or termites. it seems most frogs are also eating wood lice and small, newly shed sowbugs. although i have had frogs breed quite fine on repcal/herptavite 1:1 mix and ff's dusted every feeding. ive never had any froglets display tremors or splayed out paralysis or anything of the sort and loose very few froglets and almost no tadpoles. occasionally i get a hammerhead or curly tail but thats usually on new breeders
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Old 01-31-2006, 03:32 AM
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Ed,

I just wanted to thank you for the great information in this thread. I think it will be beneficial to everyone. I can honestly say I have already switched to alternating daily between herptivite, and repcal.
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:34 PM
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Hi Kyle,

Thanks for the compliment. The alternating is not the ideal situation but it is better than most as it allows for the most optimal benefit (at least as far as I can tell with the data available) with the least risk.

The other point I want people to take away from this thread is that this is a rapidly changing field with a lot of empirical changes occuring as more items/issues come to the attention of the nutritionists and vets. I have been trying to keep up with the publications and changes for a number of years now so it is possible that a better supplement will come onto the market tomorrow or more information will come out and you may see me making a different recommendation next year or the year after.....

Ed
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Old 01-31-2006, 12:56 PM
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Hey Ed!

Great stuff...what would you consider be the "ideal situation"?
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Old 01-31-2006, 06:40 PM
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The ideal solution would be we knew the RDA for the frogs and had a easily cultured feeder insect or insects that the frogs aggressively feed on that are a complete food source without haveing to mess around with gut loading or dusting.

While dusting is generally better than gutloading (for reasons I have expounded upon elsewhere (definetly in the frognet archives), it is not a perfect system as the size, shape and hairyness of the feeder insect causes different amounts of dust to stick to the insect. This can put herps at risk to ingest toxic levels of supplements (even calcium can be an issue when ingested in excess) and is something we have little control over except to try and fine tune the frequency of the feedings and dustings (I do not have any hard data as of yet as the scale I would need to use has been out of commission) but it has been referenced in some literature that ffs retain more dust than comparably sized crickets for example. (I am hoping that there is some new data in the new Mader's book that is due out).

Ed
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