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Old 12-29-2005, 01:09 AM
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Default phytoplankton questions

I have been meaning to try this stuff next round of tricolor tadpoles.

An update, I have NOT noticed much of a difference in coloration on my adult tricolors using cyclopeeze. While it might be possible what I use is too weak, I am leaning more heavily to the hypothesis that Ed and Corey support that the tadpole stage is the coloration phase.

I have a few questions. What constitutes mostly phytoplankton? I do not know much, except its mostly types of algae.

What are useful pigments, other than astaxanthin that lead to reds?

Are there any documents of it being used for dendrobatid tadpoles?

Is there anything in it that may not be good for tadpoles? (well, it comes from the ocean, not a small waterbody where dart frog tads are).
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:19 AM
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I use cyclopeeze in my reef tank for target feeding. Actually, it's technically a zooplankton, as they are crustaceans. Regarding the pigments, there are high levels of astaxanthene and canthaxanthene, but how these affect tadpole color, I have no idea.

Regarding your questions, you are right, phytoplankton is algae - usually microscopic algae (mostly unicellular I think). There's a lot of discussion regarding the various sizes of photoplankton in reef forums, some being very small, others being a bit bigger (but still generally microscopic). There are some studies in coral feeding, but none that I know of for dendrobatid tads.

I think the processing of cyclopeeze destroys most potential pathogens, but I doubt there a re any publications supporting this statement.

Sorry if I'm of little help,
Ryan
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Old 12-29-2005, 01:25 AM
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Read this. The post from Jim towards the end.
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Old 12-29-2005, 10:08 PM
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wanted to add, I believe Brent Brock said the cyclopeeze/ caratenoid idea works for pumilio, but not as well for the tricolors once they become adults, as there is a cut off point. I use UVB 7% power compact as well, with OP4.

Corey mentioned to me one day that a WC tricolor was still red after many years, so the coloration must develop more when the frog is in the tadpole stage or a young froglet.

I do add a caratenoid supplement as well to my mix, carrot and beet powder. I feed my tricolors larva that have been gutloaded on a mix with paprika and different juices. Not much has changed.

So, I'm going to set up an experiment on my next batch of tadpoles to see what happens.
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Old 03-03-2006, 10:55 AM
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Very interesting... do you see any benefits from using UVB on the tads?
I've been considering it.

Kindest Regards,

Juan-Carlos Munoz
Miami, Florida
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Old 03-03-2006, 11:50 AM
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I know it has been mentioned before but I am going to mention it again....

There appears to be species dependent windows of time during which coloration can be intesified or not. The anecdotal reports on some of the pumilio appear to support that the adults can lose and increase intensity of some of the pigments however adult tricolor appear to be fairly stable regardless of the supplementation however this does not mean that it will not work as there may be a threshold level required but it appears to work best with some frogs like tricolors as metamorphs. There is some supposition that supplementation during the tadpole stage may also be effective as carotenoids can be stored in the fat cells.

Color supplementation at this point is based pretty much solely on guesswork and anecdotal reporting as
1) there isn't any standardized studies going on with well controlled supplementation
2) the effects of the vast majority of carotenoids on the metabolism of animals is unknown.
3) Our expectation of how fast it should happen is probably way off.

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Old 03-03-2006, 11:56 AM
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And let me add, that UVB exposure may not be the way to go as there is some empirical evidence that while carotenoids may stimulate the formation of xanthopores, UVB may stimulate the formation of melanopores. There have been some studies that have shown that if stimulated with melanin or even allopurinol, the amphibian will convert xantho and iridiopores to melanopores. UVB stimulates melanin production...

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Old 03-03-2006, 12:02 PM
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Thank you.

Regards,

Juan-Carlos
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Old 03-03-2006, 12:23 PM
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Before I forget,

UVB has been used in at least one case in the 1980s to resolve SLS in dart frogs be exposing the tadpoles for a very short period of time to the UVB every day.

The effects of the UV exposure is of course going to be time and temperature dependent.

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Old 03-03-2006, 04:33 PM
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Ed, I have wondered. Do you think both UVB exposure and caratenoid supplementation is the way to go with the deep red tricolors? I know you said it stimulates melanophores, but I have theorized the "rich red" types could be simply from enough UVB exposure.

What I'm saying is, that the frogs while tadpoles should be given mostly caratenoids, and only as adults or subadults be given UVB. I make this hypothesis based that young tricolors are mostly shy and blend in well in the substrate while the adults (particularly the males) become much bolder and often climb upwards...in nature I think as adults they would be more out in sunlight than the youngsters.

Here's something interesting, but there is no true evidence. The two male tricolors are definitely deeper in color than the female. They are more brown, but it definitely looks brick red, very nice actually. The female which is virtually always in the shadows is mostly that "bubblegum" color which is pretty distinct. The males stay up near the plants where they are exposed to more UVB from the light.
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Old 03-05-2006, 05:44 PM
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snip "Ed, I have wondered. Do you think both UVB exposure and caratenoid supplementation is the way to go with the deep red tricolors? I know you said it stimulates melanophores, but I have theorized the "rich red" types could be simply from enough UVB exposure. " endsnip

Why?

snip "What I'm saying is, that the frogs while tadpoles should be given mostly caratenoids, and only as adults or subadults be given UVB. I make this hypothesis based that young tricolors are mostly shy and blend in well in the substrate while the adults (particularly the males) become much bolder and often climb upwards...in nature I think as adults they would be more out in sunlight than the youngsters. endsnip

is this due to that or is it due to an ontogentic change that prevents the froglets from coloring up to allow them to cohabit adult territories and not be treated as invaders by the adults?

snip " Here's something interesting, but there is no true evidence. The two male tricolors are definitely deeper in color than the female. They are more brown, but it definitely looks brick red, very nice actually. The female which is virtually always in the shadows is mostly that "bubblegum" color which is pretty distinct. The males stay up near the plants where they are exposed to more UVB from the " endsnip

Or are they also getting more of the supplemented ffs as they are closer to the top and the ffs run up?

Ed
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Old 03-06-2006, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Or are they also getting more of the supplemented ffs as they are closer to the top and the ffs run up?
Nope, frogs feed mostly off the bottom of the tank. However, the males are up in the plants more while the female is always hunkering around the bottom. The female is much paler in color.

Quote:
Why?
Potentially because some have complained that "you will never get the real bright red like wild caughts." I believe Corey supplemented the frogs from tadpoles (however, no astaxanthin) and said this.

It could just be a supplement thing in general, but also most do not use UVB over our anurans.

this probably is a false correlation (for frogs), but doesn't the redness or orangish coloration deepen for goldfish/koi in outdoor ponds due to UVB exposure? (other than supplementation) Many books state that.
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Old 03-06-2006, 05:44 PM
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snip "Quote:
Or are they also getting more of the supplemented ffs as they are closer to the top and the ffs run up?


Nope, frogs feed mostly off the bottom of the tank. However, the males are up in the plants more while the female is always hunkering around the bottom. The female is much paler in color. " endsnip

How does this correlate to the males not getting more of the supplemented flies even though they initially feed on the bottom? Are you stating that
1) the female gets more of the ffs than the male
and/or
2) all feeding occurs on the floor of the cage?

snip "Potentially because some have complained that "you will never get the real bright red like wild caughts." I believe Corey supplemented the frogs from tadpoles (however, no astaxanthin) and said this." endsnip

This is partly due to the fact that the majority of supplements being used for color enhancement were provitamin A, greenish, yellow or orangish pigments until recently. Astaxanthin has only been availble for a little while to the frog community and until someone documents the quantity of astaxanthin in the diet and rears the different frogs on it we won't know for sure. There are anecdotal reports of it enhancing the color in pumilio but pumilio also have been reported to fade with time while wc tricolors seemed to hold thier color and metamorphs take a long time to color up. There also appears to be "windows" in which some species will color up and others such as tricolor do not appreciably change or change much more slowly. I suspect that people who are not getting the results they want are probably too impatient...

It could just be a supplement thing in general, but also most do not use UVB over our anurans." endsnip

Where is the frog getting pigment(s) other than melanin in this assumption?? Why would the frog be stimulated to deposit a different carotenoid as UV protection when melanin is 1) what is stimulated when exposed to UV light 2) is the pigment used pretty universally in vertebrates to protect from UVB?


snip "this probably is a false correlation (for frogs), but doesn't the redness or orangish coloration deepen for goldfish/koi in outdoor ponds due to UVB exposure? (other than supplementation) Many books state that." endsnip


It also deepens when fed a suitable carotenoid supplement like astaxanthin. the only real references I have read about Koi and sunshine is that the colors bleach when exposed to excessive sun and no shade.. Now whether this is due to the effects of UV or stress due to the sun or temperature I have not seen any conclusive data. There are anecdotal reports that koi that have access to sunshine have brighter colors than those maintained indoors but if you look into the literature there are some assumptions that this may be due to the access to algae which contains carotenoids which are known to enhance color and not to the sun. The color foods for fish are carotenoid rich food....

As a final comment, the problem with this is that for the UVB to have any impact on the frog the bulbs need to be within 9-18 inches depending on the bulb of the frog, and not passing through glass, plastic or even screening (all of which interfere with the transmission of the UVB reducing its effectiveness) and even then the levels may be marginally able to stimulate the conversion of provitamin D to D3...

Ed
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Old 03-07-2006, 12:56 AM
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Quote:
Where is the frog getting pigment(s) other than melanin in this assumption?? Why would the frog be stimulated to deposit a different carotenoid as UV protection when melanin is 1) what is stimulated when exposed to UV light 2) is the pigment used pretty universally in vertebrates to protect from UVB?
It was just an idea man.

I really should clarify, the "deeper red" I honestly meant FROM the formation of melanin (ontop of the supplementation and development of xanthophores), so the frogs take on more of a burgandy, maroon color. What I was wondering, perhaps if the frogs got enough supplementation, and added ultraviolet light, production of xantho and melanophores would give the frogs a deeper shade of red....

But considering you pointed out that xanthophores will be converted to melanophores, perhaps this idea is invalid.
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Old 03-07-2006, 08:46 PM
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Ed, I don't want to stray too much from the original topic of this post (despite we already have), but I'd appreciate if you can shoot me a PM with an article about xanthophore and melanophore development in amphibians, if you can find one.

Not trying to refute your knowledge, but so you are saying that melanophores will replace (I stress replace, not add) xanthophores? (so there is an added concentration of xanthophores and melanophores in the skin to deepen the coloration)
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:15 PM
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Try in Amphibian Biology (Heatwold H & Barthalmus GT, eds), Vol. 1, Surrey Beatty & Sons, Chipping Norton, NSW, Australia

You can review the discussion in there as well as the references.

Ed
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Old 03-07-2006, 11:18 PM
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Try in Amphibian Biology (Heatwold H & Barthalmus GT, eds), Vol. 1, Surrey Beatty & Sons, Chipping Norton, NSW, Australia

You can review the discussion in there as well as the references.

Yes amphibians can convert other pigment cells to melanopores under stimulation. This can even occur in dietary supplementation. Axolotls for example can be made melanistic through the addition of excess allopurinol into the diet. Excess stimulation of the melanocytes can cause the conversion.

Ed
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