misting flys - Dendroboard
Dendroboard

Go Back   Dendroboard > Dart Frogs > Food & Feeding
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Advertise

Support Our Sponsors
No Threads to Display.

facebook

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 01:26 AM
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 30
Thanked 24 Times in 19 Posts
Default misting flys

Has anyone tried lightly misting flies before dusting them with supplements? Anyone think this would be beneficial to the frogs getting more supplements in the long run?
__________________
leucs,Tinc. Matechos,P. vittatus',imis Standard,auratus C.R. G&B,auratus Pan. G&B
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 02-24-2011, 01:55 AM
oddlot's Avatar
Mod
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: south jersey
Posts: 3,344
Thanks: 16
Thanked 165 Times in 134 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

It's not necessary,it would probably cake up on the flys and possibly suffocate them.You get plenty of supplements on them by dusting with every feeding.

Lou
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 02:31 AM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
Thanks: 2
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default Re: misting flys

I just tried it and it is stupid. All the flies remained stuck to the bottom of the cup so I through my fly duster cup in the garbage.
Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 04:26 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 1,974
Thanks: 108
Thanked 88 Times in 86 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by What'sAGoonToAGoblin? View Post
I just tried it and it is stupid. All the flies remained stuck to the bottom of the cup so I through my fly duster cup in the garbage.
Haha i felt the same when I did something similar. I rinsed out my duster cup a while back and didn't really dry it. well the supplements and flys were added, shaken up, and low and behold the water dropplets mixed with the supplements and clumped up and stuck to the walls of the cup. The flies stuck to the walls as well. Disaster.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 04:32 AM
earthfrog's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,152
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 412
Thanked 93 Times in 79 Posts
Lightbulb Re: misting flys

Here's how you do it, as it takes practice to mist them in the cup after they're dusted (which could be done with a fogger, but still troublesome)---

Dust the flies well, put them in the tank, then spritz them finely with a hand sprayer for a second. Bada bing. The vitamins seem to stay on them for at least an hour after that, if not more.
__________________
Susan
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:08 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 1,974
Thanks: 108
Thanked 88 Times in 86 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthfrog View Post
Here's how you do it, as it takes practice to mist them in the cup after they're dusted (which could be done with a fogger, but still troublesome)---

Dust the flies well, put them in the tank, then spritz them finely with a hand sprayer for a second. Bada bing. The vitamins seem to stay on them for at least an hour after that, if not more.
I've misted the tank shortly after feeding. It seemed to wash some of the supplements off the flies. It may assist in making the powder stick to them longer. I may try that myself and see if it does indeed make the supplements adhere to the flys longer.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:14 AM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,312
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,733 Times in 1,795 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthfrog View Post
Here's how you do it, as it takes practice to mist them in the cup after they're dusted (which could be done with a fogger, but still troublesome)---

Dust the flies well, put them in the tank, then spritz them finely with a hand sprayer for a second. Bada bing. The vitamins seem to stay on them for at least an hour after that, if not more.
There is a real concern with oversupplementing with fruit flies as the supplements are manufacutured with crickets in mind and there was one unpublished study (referenced in the Nutrition chapter in Mader's text (Reptile Medicine and Surgery) that indicates that fruit flies actually have the potential to retain enough supplements that over supplementing is a risk. In addition, (I think in the same source), supplement retention runs as long as 12 hours (and I have seen crickets at least still dusted 24 hours later when ultrafine powders are used).

wetting the flies in a attempt to increase supplement retention time is not needed.

Ed
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:16 AM
earthfrog's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,152
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 412
Thanked 93 Times in 79 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by varanoid View Post
I've misted the tank shortly after feeding. It seemed to wash some of the supplements off the flies. It may assist in making the powder stick to them longer. I may try that myself and see if it does indeed make the supplements adhere to the flys longer.
Yeah, if it's more than one or two quick spritzes done high above the flies it will not work right---needs to be at least a foot above and aimed across them, not down at them.
__________________
Susan
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:25 AM
Mworks's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North West England
Posts: 466
Thanks: 14
Thanked 34 Times in 18 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

I have checked fruit flies under the microscope 12 hours after dusting to see what if any 'dust' was left on the bodies. Even after 12 hours there is obvious signs of the vit supplement still there in fact some still had small amounts 18 hours later.

Regards
Marcus
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mworks For This Useful Post:
earthfrog (02-25-2011), Pumilo (03-02-2011)
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:28 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Tracy, CA
Posts: 1,974
Thanks: 108
Thanked 88 Times in 86 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthfrog View Post
Yeah, if it's more than one or two quick spritzes done high above the flies it will not work right---needs to be at least a foot above and aimed across them, not down at them.
thanks for the tip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mworks View Post
I have checked fruit flies under the microscope 12 hours after dusting to see what if any 'dust' was left on the bodies. Even after 12 hours there is obvious signs of the vit supplement still there in fact some still had small amounts 18 hours later.

Regards
Marcus
Good to know. Clever idea as well thanks for sharing.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2011, 05:34 AM
earthfrog's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,152
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 412
Thanked 93 Times in 79 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
There is a real concern with oversupplementing with fruit flies as the supplements are manufacutured with crickets in mind and there was one unpublished study (referenced in the Nutrition chapter in Mader's text (Reptile Medicine and Surgery) that indicates that fruit flies actually have the potential to retain enough supplements that over supplementing is a risk. In addition, (I think in the same source), supplement retention runs as long as 12 hours (and I have seen crickets at least still dusted 24 hours later when ultrafine powders are used).

wetting the flies in a attempt to increase supplement retention time is not needed.

Ed
Is there info in there that helps you determine how much vitamin powder you would use on the flies per feeding? I 'lightly coat' mine, and primarily sprayed them so that the dust would not so easily get on plant leaves and promote algae growth on valued rarer plants.
Does that info suggest that wetting the flies would prolong the supplement retention time, or that it is simply unnecessary?
__________________
Susan
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2011, 03:13 AM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,312
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,733 Times in 1,795 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by earthfrog View Post
Is there info in there that helps you determine how much vitamin powder you would use on the flies per feeding? I 'lightly coat' mine, and primarily sprayed them so that the dust would not so easily get on plant leaves and promote algae growth on valued rarer plants.
Does that info suggest that wetting the flies would prolong the supplement retention time, or that it is simply unnecessary?
Actually it doesn't say anything about wetting the flies.. but given that flies tend to retain at least some level of supplements for 12 hours, wetting the flies is unneccessary as the problem with oversupplementing is because the ratio of the size of the fly to the amount of supplements retained combined with the fact that frogs are programmed to eat as much as possible during times of abundence causes the risk of oversupplementation. This even an issue with some of the other small feeders like pinhead crickets.


Ed
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ed For This Useful Post:
earthfrog (02-27-2011)
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2011, 02:17 PM
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 30
Thanked 24 Times in 19 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

So, even though the flies immediatley begin cleaning themselves after being dusted, there is presumably enough powder still on them 12 hours later to benefit the frogs?
__________________
leucs,Tinc. Matechos,P. vittatus',imis Standard,auratus C.R. G&B,auratus Pan. G&B
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 02-27-2011, 02:23 PM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,312
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,733 Times in 1,795 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim13 View Post
So, even though the flies immediatley begin cleaning themselves after being dusted, there is presumably enough powder still on them 12 hours later to benefit the frogs?
Yes.
In addition to supplying vitamins, the real reason we dust the flies is to correct thier calcum to phosphorus ratio. Virtually all invertebrates that the frogs may feed on have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio.. This results in insufficient calcium uptake when this is combined with sufficient vitamin D3, and prevents one of the forms of "MBD".

Ed
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 07:24 PM
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
Thanks: 2
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim13 View Post
So, even though the flies immediatley begin cleaning themselves after being dusted, there is presumably enough powder still on them 12 hours later to benefit the frogs?
Yes. Ever notice how flies and crickets dusted with calcium/vitamins etc. tend to die a few hours or a day later? In many instances the insects die because their spiracles are coated/blocked with calcium/vitamin dust and they die due to a lack of oxygen (personal observation under the stereomicroscope).
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 07:44 PM
JL-Exotics's Avatar
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 851
Thanks: 32
Thanked 41 Times in 28 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Yes.
In addition to supplying vitamins, the real reason we dust the flies is to correct thier calcum to phosphorus ratio. Virtually all invertebrates that the frogs may feed on have a poor calcium to phosphorus ratio.. This results in insufficient calcium uptake when this is combined with sufficient vitamin D3, and prevents one of the forms of "MBD".

Ed
What are the frogs eating in the wild that has the correct calcium to phosphorus ratio?
__________________
Jeremy
www.JL-Exotics.com
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 09:11 PM
earthfrog's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 3,152
Blog Entries: 10
Thanks: 412
Thanked 93 Times in 79 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Actually it doesn't say anything about wetting the flies.. but given that flies tend to retain at least some level of supplements for 12 hours, wetting the flies is unneccessary as the problem with oversupplementing is because the ratio of the size of the fly to the amount of supplements retained combined with the fact that frogs are programmed to eat as much as possible during times of abundence causes the risk of oversupplementation. This even an issue with some of the other small feeders like pinhead crickets.


Ed
Perhaps we presume that wetting the flies results in the fly retaining supplements longer...maybe all that results is the fly removing the powder in larger globules instead of small specks. I've not actually done/seen anything that says wetting the flies keeps supps on them longer, but misting them does make them more active just after dusting (and thus attractive to predators), when otherwise they would be stationary and busy themselves with cleaning. This factor alone may result in more of them eaten, which might increase the amount of supplements the frogs consume.
__________________
Susan

Last edited by earthfrog; 03-02-2011 at 09:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 09:56 PM
thedude's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Washington
Posts: 2,475
Thanks: 290
Thanked 168 Times in 116 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by What'sAGoonToAGoblin? View Post
I just tried it and it is stupid. All the flies remained stuck to the bottom of the cup so I through my fly duster cup in the garbage.
ever hear of cleaning?
__________________
Adam Hess

Ranitomeya, Oophaga, Ameerega, and Phyllobates.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 10:07 PM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,312
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,733 Times in 1,795 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL-Exotics View Post
What are the frogs eating in the wild that has the correct calcium to phosphorus ratio?
Soil dwelling invertebrates who have soil particles stuck to them or ingested by them, as well as dirt accidentally ingested. There is also evidence that calcium it taken up through the skin from the enviroment..

Ed
__________________
A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 10:50 PM
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 30
Thanked 24 Times in 19 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

So, by dusting we are basically just mimicking dirt sticking to the insects the frogs eat?
__________________
leucs,Tinc. Matechos,P. vittatus',imis Standard,auratus C.R. G&B,auratus Pan. G&B
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 11:16 PM
JL-Exotics's Avatar
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 851
Thanks: 32
Thanked 41 Times in 28 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Soil dwelling invertebrates who have soil particles stuck to them or ingested by them, as well as dirt accidentally ingested. There is also evidence that calcium it taken up through the skin from the enviroment..

Ed
Can we assume that the invertebrates in the wild have a comparable Ca:P ratio as our standard feeder insects?
__________________
Jeremy
www.JL-Exotics.com
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 11:25 PM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,312
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,733 Times in 1,795 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL-Exotics View Post
Can we assume that the invertebrates in the wild have a comparable Ca:P ratio as our standard feeder insects?
In general yes.. some like isopods have more calcium but the ratios tend to still be off.

One of the differences is that in the wild, substrates tend to not be calcium poor.

Ed
__________________
A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 11:33 PM
JL-Exotics's Avatar
Sponsor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 851
Thanks: 32
Thanked 41 Times in 28 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Then would it be possible 'in theory' to eliminate the need for calcium supplementation if the proper calcium enriched substrate were provided?

Essentially supplementing the environment with calcium rather then the feeder insects themselves...

I guess the real question would be which is easier to control?
__________________
Jeremy
www.JL-Exotics.com
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 11:41 PM
Pumilo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 10,415
Thanks: 844
Thanked 1,853 Times in 1,350 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL-Exotics View Post
Then would it be possible 'in theory' to eliminate the need for calcium supplementation if the proper calcium enriched substrate were provided?

Essentially supplementing the environment with calcium rather then the feeder insects themselves...

I guess the real question would be which is easier to control?
In theory, to do that you would have to combine that calcium enriched substrate, http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/par...trate-how.html , with a UVB bulb so they could also get vitamin D. Vitamin D is necessary for the proper absorption of calcium.
__________________
Doug aka Pumilo
The second "i" is silent. It's so silent it's not even there!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 03-02-2011, 11:47 PM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,312
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,733 Times in 1,795 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by JL-Exotics View Post
Then would it be possible 'in theory' to eliminate the need for calcium supplementation if the proper calcium enriched substrate were provided?

Essentially supplementing the environment with calcium rather then the feeder insects themselves...

I guess the real question would be which is easier to control?
You would still need to provide D3... Mark Budde set up a test enclosure to see how sustainable a long term tank would be.. It was a thread here somewhere

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...ums-depth.html

Ed
__________________
A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2011, 12:19 AM
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: fredericksburg, VA
Posts: 568
Thanks: 30
Thanked 24 Times in 19 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

I've read that a UVB bulb is not ideal for amphibians. So, would it be better to have a low output UVB bulb with a clay calcium rich substrate?
__________________
leucs,Tinc. Matechos,P. vittatus',imis Standard,auratus C.R. G&B,auratus Pan. G&B
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2011, 12:40 AM
Pumilo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 10,415
Thanks: 844
Thanked 1,853 Times in 1,350 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by tim13 View Post
I've read that a UVB bulb is not ideal for amphibians. So, would it be better to have a low output UVB bulb with a clay calcium rich substrate?
A UVB bulb is not necessary for Darts because we use a complete supplement. If we are talking about dropping the supplements in favor of enriching the environment, the rules change. I am NOT knowledgeable enough to tell you UVB wattages / sizes.
While I am in complete support of improving substrates in favor of calcium enriched clay substrates, please remember that the bugs we feed are limited in variety and were not all raised on perfect foods. I for one, will still be supplementing.
__________________
Doug aka Pumilo
The second "i" is silent. It's so silent it's not even there!
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 03-03-2011, 01:20 AM
Ed Ed is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 19,312
Thanks: 321
Thanked 2,733 Times in 1,795 Posts
Default Re: misting flys

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumilo View Post
A UVB bulb is not necessary for Darts because we use a complete supplement. If we are talking about dropping the supplements in favor of enriching the environment, the rules change. I am NOT knowledgeable enough to tell you UVB wattages / sizes.
While I am in complete support of improving substrates in favor of calcium enriched clay substrates, please remember that the bugs we feed are limited in variety and were not all raised on perfect foods. I for one, will still be supplementing.
Doug has it right.. If you wish to use a UVB bulb, it isn't so much about the size as the ability for the frog to get away from the UVB as they choose.
Even if we fed the insects a diet optimized for them, there is still a huge variation in the ability to achieve a proper level of vitamins.

Ed
__________________
A phrase you never want to hear;
"It seemed like a good idea at the time."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Flys yoshi9 Food & Feeding 4 02-22-2011 03:19 AM
Fruit Flys Road8514 Food & Feeding 5 10-09-2009 12:51 AM
Which flys are best? mboehne86 Beginner Discussion 5 03-13-2009 04:33 AM
WHY DID HALF MY FLYS FLY AWAY builder74 Food & Feeding 8 09-20-2006 04:02 AM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.