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Old 06-19-2005, 02:05 PM
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Default carrot, beet, and tomato powder for tricolor

Hey guys. I ordered some of these powdered veggies from barry Farms.

The carrot powder sticks very well to fruit flies, but even better to crickets. As long as you keep the bag sealed, it will not clump. I have noticed any unused supplement in a dish that I want to reuse will clump up and will not work anymore.

I cannot get the tomato powder to stick at all.
The beet powder is the finest, just like normal supplement, but I do not know the safety of this nor the benefit for coloring up my tricolors.

All of my frogs seem to like the carrot powder sprinkled on. Guess it adds a bit more flavor to things. :lol:
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Old 06-19-2005, 02:19 PM
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I am guessing that you can take any "clumped up" powder and possibly add it to your springtail cultures.

I'm sure they'd take would eat it and possibly uptake some of the characteristics you're looking for.

Better than wasting it anyhow.

Do you have a URL for Barry Farms (I haven't tried but I'd rather get it straight from you anyhow)?

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Old 06-19-2005, 04:33 PM
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With the addition of the carrot you are basically supplying more betacarotene to the frogs and this will probably not significantly enhance the color of the frogs as this is the most commonly used carotenoid in vitamin/mineral supplements and can be fat stored.

To date it has not been shown that the frogs wil use lycopene and other similar pigments as a color enhancement so the value in enhancing red pigments is unknown. Red in amphibians is typically either based solely on a pterin pigment or carotenoids or both. With the carotenoids in other amphibians that store red pigments, the red is typically not from a carotenoid found in higher plants (either synthesized from similar carotenoids or bioaccumulated from specific algae) but from a carotenoid found in arthropods such as some daphnia and gammarus (also the red pigment in salmon) (may in the long run simply be a factor of intensity of the red as there are reports of intensification of red via paprika).
I believe Tracy Hicks uses beet powder for his frogs but you would have to ask him specifically how much he uses and how.
Some carotenoids such as betacarotene are relatively harmless but not all carotenoids can be lumped into this category as some that are commercially available are damaging to the liver if fed in excess.

Just some comments

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Old 06-20-2005, 03:59 PM
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If ThatFish Place didn't back order my cyclopeeze, that would be my solution then....
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Old 06-20-2005, 04:43 PM
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I was led to beleive Beta Carotene(sp) was not what is harmful if overdosed, but rather vitamin A.

Ryan
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Old 06-20-2005, 05:19 PM
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the only disagreement I would have is that firebellied toad breeders are said to correct the problem of a yellow belly with beta carotene to make it turn orange.
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Old 06-21-2005, 03:50 PM
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Sorry. Forgot to respond to this sooner:

http://www.barryfarm.com

There are other places too. Just do a search at google for carrot powder.

For cyclopeeze, just go to that fish place (http://www.thatpetplace.com) and search on Cyclopeeze.

Ed....

Do you have any information where the "other carotenoids" would be found? If they are from arthopods, that makes me think of marine algae like what Cyclopeeze stores. I wouldn't think carotenoids from marine types of algae, would be found on where tricolor live naturally, but then again, there could be another source of this carotenoid somewhere else.

I did plan on using Cyclopeeze. (Ed Martin has used it) I would feed it to the crickets first or springtails, and then to the frogs.
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:39 PM
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Betacarotene is really pretty safe even in excess unlike vitamin A (retinol).

The literature I had in hand at that time did not give a specific breakdown of other potential carotenoids that could be used as a precursor to astaxanthin in arthropods; but they are listed as coming from aquatic microorganisms (implying that they may not necessarily originate in algaes). In addition the actual color of astaxanthin can be significantly changed by the protien(s) to which it is bound so digestion can potentially liberate the red color for uptake and storage.

With respect to betacarotene fed Bombina, the ones that I have seen had an intensification of the yellow-orange color but did not attain the deep red-orange color seen in wild caught imports. As there are potentially other carotenoids that are red (such as lycopene and those found in beets), these may be more effective in inducing a red color but astaxanthin is known to induce a red color in aquatic organisms that store carotenoids. (Cynops ventral patterns when fed betacarotene become more yellow as opposed to red in my experience).

In some amphibians and anurans the red color is from a group of pigments known as pterins that cannot be increased through the feeding of carotenoids just as blue is from the reflection of the blue wavelength of light from the reflecting iridiopores (for a good review of amphibian skin pigments see volume 1 of Amphibian Biology).

If I am unclear it may be due to it having been a really long day and I am very tired.

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Old 06-22-2005, 03:47 AM
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no. It makes more sense now.

But I'm not so sure about beets containing anything. From reading health websites, no information has been mentioned about caratenoids found in beets. Perhaps they are false? I know though that carrots contain several other caratenoids, but, like you said, void of anthaxanthin...

However, my idea now is to get my Cyclopeeze and feed it to my tricolors and firebellied toads, by means of gutloaded crickets.

And, I'd like to add, but i think UV has definitely had an effect on the "richness" in color on my tricolor. My boldest male gaurded a clutch of eggs for the longest time very close to the UV lamp I had. He has turned out to be deeper in color, not necessarily "redder," but much darker than my shy female who lives on the shadowy forest floor (my tank is heavily planted).

So, perhaps a combo of UV and anthaxanthin will do the job and get my frogs to be deep red... I hope.
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Old 06-22-2005, 03:54 AM
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Be honest with you, i don't know why I bought beet powder now. But perhaps, it still could be useful, and I was misinformed on the net about beets (AFTER I bought the stuff!)
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Old 06-22-2005, 04:06 AM
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Thought I might jump in here. Ben Green posted this link on a similar thread a few months ago: http://food.naturalhealthperspective.com/carotenes.html. I found it pretty helpful for making my own carotenoid concoction. I made a powder using at least one major source of each of the carotenoids listed. Then on Ed K's suggestion, I added Cyclopeze to the mix. All of this is powdered in a blender and then ground fine in a mortar and pestel. To this powder I added enough calcium powder as an anit-clumping agent and to make it stick. I store it in an air tight container with a silica gel pillow. I dust this on ff as a supplement and have also added it to ff and waxworm media. I've been feeding this to cb blue jeans pumilio and the results have been very encouraging. Not only have the youngest froglets held their color much better than any in the past, but even the dull colored cb adults have regained much of the color they had lost.

As for whether the sources of various carotenoids would be found in PDF habitat. I don't give that too much thought. The wet tropics are so diverse with plant life that it is very likely that all of the various carotenoids we have discussed are found there in some form or at least some very chemically similar compound is found there.

Finally, kidney and liver are reported to be foods high in pterins. I have considered drying and powdering some but have not done it yet.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:38 PM
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Sorry I was tired and got the beet stuff mixed up in my head. Red beets are high in flavenoids but should also be high in carotenoids as yellow beets have good levels of betacarotene and the difference between the two is that red beets basically produce more flavenoids. It is hard to get data on the roots as the greens are a good source of betacarotene and most items address the use of the greens.

UVB can have an increase in color but it can also reduce color as it can stimulate the increased production of melanin and melanophores in the frogs which would reduce the bright color. We may not be reaching the threshold to stimulate melanin production in the enclosures as the UV out put is pretty low when compared to the sun.


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Old 06-22-2005, 02:51 PM
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I happen to like the darker, burgandy color hehe. :wink:

I just want my backordered Cyclopeeze!

Brent:

How well does the Cyclopeeze stick alone? I have tried paprika multiple times, and it didn't do crap, and that is why I bought the carrot, beet, and tomato powder. The carrot powder sticks well, but the beat powder is even finer.
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Old 06-24-2005, 01:54 AM
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Now why couldn't we just take a jar of color enhancing fish food, put it in a food processor, powder it up and use that?
My experience with fish is that you couldn't use this stuff more than 1-2 days a week .....they got soooo dark in color.

Thoughts?

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Old 06-25-2005, 05:36 PM
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First of all, i don't have a decent food processor. Second, I have thought about trying that, at least feed it to my pinhead colony.

Particularly, the marine types because they are loaded with asthaxanthin from marine algae and plankton.

But, I really want to try and keep the "filler junk" down to a minimum, but then again, paprika, carrot, beet, etc. isn't what a typical frog would consume anyway.

However, that is a viable alternative to feeding gutloaded crickets and then feeding them out to the frogs.

However, I still did order some "fish food." Cyclop-eeze, but is backordered by that fish place until July 7.
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Old 06-25-2005, 07:29 PM
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If you are going to use color enhancing fish food look for ones that are certified as hormone free. In a lot of the fish, enhanced color is linked to breeding condition so it is possible that some of the color enhancing foods contain testosterone or one of its analogs.

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Old 06-28-2005, 03:07 PM
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Ed. Petco also sells frozen foods for marine fish. One I found contains already asthaxanthin. But it appears too stinky (its wet, not dried and turn into flakes like cyclopeeze) so I haven't bought any to feed to crickets.

How did you guys powder the cyclopeeze before feeding out? I know its pure crustacean, but normal fishfood doesn't stick well to flies. (I tried to powder it once). I still have no idea how you guys got paprika to stick, because it never will in my experience.

Ed. What about feeding liverwurst to crickets? They eat just about anything. It could be a feasible way to add pterins...
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Old 06-28-2005, 05:45 PM
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I ordered the flake cyclop-eze but what I got just looked like freeze dried crustaceans. In raw form it doesn't stick well at all. It is both too clumpy and too oily. I got a mortar and pestel and ground up the entire cannister into a fine powder which still doesn't stick to ff very well but mixing it with calcium powder dries it out and allows it to stick. I now dust with this mix in place of my calcium dustings.

There are a few reasons not to just use color enhancing flakes as a powder for frogs. The "filler factor" has already been mentioned but also, not all color enhancers are the same. Many of the fish flakes just add beta carotene to the formula which we can easilty get by dusting with paprika. Some flakes use canthoxanthin which is a powerful form of vitamin A that can cause liver damage if used too much. So the idea behind these crazy concoctions is to create a supplement with the full range of carotenoids that are safe for the frogs (no vitamin A activity). So far astaxanthin really looks like the best single ingredient but I can't say how much the results I'm seeing are from the astaxanthin or from just having a cocktail of pigment binding compounds available for the frogs. All I can say is that these are the best results in getting cb blue jeans to have wild caught color I've seen yet and the supplements are mostly derived from fresh fruits and vegetables so probably a pretty good overall dietary supplement as well.
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Old 07-01-2005, 05:32 PM
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Off the top of my head. while those organs can contain pterins, this does not mean that the pterins contained in those organs can be used for pigments (as pterin pigments are synthesized as opposed to simply stored (otherwise the red in the eyes of ffs could be used). However these meats do have high levels of purines which are precursors to pterins and may be able to increase pterin levels in amphibians. This is speculative based on the ability to modify colors in axolotls by feeding certain pigment precursors.

I was able to get a container of flake cyclopeeze at one of the local lfs and it appears to powder well and should stick well if mixed with a supplement.

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Old 07-01-2005, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
Off the top of my head. while those organs can contain pterins, this does not mean that the pterins contained in those organs can be used for pigments (as pterin pigments are synthesized as opposed to simply stored (otherwise the red in the eyes of ffs could be used). However these meats do have high levels of purines which are precursors to pterins and may be able to increase pterin levels in amphibians. This is speculative based on the ability to modify colors in axolotls by feeding certain pigment precursors.

I was able to get a container of flake cyclopeeze at one of the local lfs and it appears to powder well and should stick well if mixed with a supplement.

Ed
Yup, my memory was hazy and I think I mispoke about kidney and liver being high in pterins. I believe they are just high in purines. Of course I wouldn't know any of this if it weren't for Ed telling me about the purine-pterin-pigment connection before.
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Old 07-11-2005, 03:50 PM
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I was talking to Corey about Asthaxanthin, about its safety one night. Corey said that it potentially can be lethal if overdosed, but we weren't entirely sure if we were talking about the same "xanthin." I know canthoxanthin is lethal in higher doses.

How often have we been supplementing it?
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Old 07-11-2005, 08:31 PM
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Canthaxanthin demonstrates a higher affinity to the liver than astaxanthin but both can affect the levels of cholesterol (increase) in the blood.
Here is a publication on ataxanthin showing that at least short term moderate levels are not a problem
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... query_hl=4

Here is one for toxicity in canthaxanthin
http://europa.eu.int/comm/food/fs/sc/ol ... 10_en.html

As with many things, some of the issues are Genera dependent.
In this one it cites a study with chickens that indicates higher levels accumulate in the yolk (and recommends no more than 0.05 mg/kg bw for the temporary acceptable intake (canthaxanthin)
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/j ... 22je09.htm


I checked on pubmed and a couple of other reference sites and was unable to find any links to toxicity (such as LD 50 etc) of astaxanthin as opposed to canthaxanthin (which is species dependent).


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Old 07-15-2005, 01:05 AM
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You guys might be interested this http://www.jehmco.com/PRODUCTS_/FISH_FO ... nkton.html Jehmco sells natural astaxanthan powder. This might stick to ff better than cyclopeeze. Iíve done business with John at Jehmco many times. He is unbelievably helpful.
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Old 07-17-2005, 08:28 PM
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I would have to read over the data sheets but using the direct product would then eliminate some of the potential benefit from the HUFAs and high protien levels found in the Cyclop-eeze.

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Old 07-19-2005, 10:52 PM
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True, but it seems that most of you guys are using the flake version of Cylcop-eeze, Jehmco sells the freeze dried form which is a powder of individual Cyclops and Cyclops parts. I would think that this would be easier to make into a fine powder than those big hard flakes.
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:31 PM
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Cool. Unfortunately, That Fish place is still out of this product, until July 27 I believe.

Are you talking about "whole" cyclopeeze? TFP sells that too, but i think its not been powdered at all.

Any thoughts how to aquire liver powder?

I'd like to try cyclopeeze on my firebellied toads too, as that could potentially be the reason why they are chronically an olive green with a faded orange belly.
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Old 07-20-2005, 07:46 PM
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The cyclop-eeze that I use is like a powder. It is individual freeze dried copepods and pieces of copepods. It can be further ground into a very fine powder. I also use the flakes, but as flakes go cyclop-eeze flakes are hard and not palatable to all of my fish. I use the powder form of cyclop-eeze as a fry food, but may try adding some to my D. leucomelas calcium/vitamin supplement.
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Old 07-23-2005, 03:17 PM
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One of the benefits to grinding the flakes is because the flakes have already been through an extruder so the distribution of the ingredients should be more uniform.

As for the liver powder, buy and freeze dry........

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Old 11-02-2005, 03:18 PM
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corey, we're starting to get a little OT, so lets continue with this post. :wink:

here's what I've noticed.

I feed out caratenoids along with the astaxanthin, mostly caratenoids to begin with that was present is SF "Treefrog dust." I have fed SF treefrog dust as my only supplement when they were babies and switched to my homemade color enhancer when they became adults.

My santa isabel have greenish or yellowish stripes. Not as vibrant or some, but definitely not pure white. however, it is not as offwhite as many tricolors I've seen, somewhat intermediate. There are many tricolors out there that are SI and have yellow stripes like a tinc.

I talked to Ed. While we're still discussing about toxic effects, apparently Astaxanthin stimulates cholesterol production in rats, but doesn't do the Vitamin A toxicity thing quite like canthoxanthin. However, it doesn't nearly seem to be as dangerous because wild Bombina feed naturally on crustaceans and can have different shades of red/ orange due to what they're eating in the wild in different populations.

Ed recommended feeding it every 5 days or so. I've been using it 3 x a week, but may cut it down to just twice a week because I've been able to get more cyclopeeze concentrated and sticking better to my fruit flies.

Hopefully he'll pop up in this discussion again.
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Old 11-03-2005, 11:33 PM
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I should dig out the reference to make sure I get this right but I'm feeling tired and lazy (and there is a big bowl of left over snicker's bars within reach so I'm not too inclined to move)

Tadpoles typically lack the a lot of the chromatophores found in the metamorphs and adults. Typically they may contain only melanopores and iridiopores (hence the golden iridescence in some tads). At metamorphosis this all changes and the formation of the xanthopores occurs. The number of xanthopores may be dependent partially on the amount and/or type of carotenoids available to the tadpole (some carotenoids are stored in the fat cells (typically those with previtamin A activity and may also play a part). In at least one caudate, it has been demostrated that xantho and iridiopores can be converted to melanopores due to allopurinol in the diet....

A lot of what we are trying with carotenoids is based on what little is known about other carotenoids (now known to be more than 500 different ones) of which little to nothing is known. The majority of the carotenoids that are we use are usually one of the three isomers of beta carotene or another yellow carotenoid (such as lutein).

Beta carotene is typically used as it really does not have any negative side effects when consumed in excess (except turning you a color of yellow orange) and is a good source of vitamin A without the risk of vitamin A toxicity. Excess beta carotene is excreted via the fecal route (excreted into the intestional tract via the bile duct).

Some disjointed thoughts.

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Old 11-04-2005, 01:00 AM
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I definately agree with the lack of xanthophores in tadpoles, but I've found supplimented tads to color up faster and better in the case of tricolor (which come out of the water lacking red/yellows as well). In the case of vittatus that I believe Ben Green was talking about, the differences in color was supposidly due to tadpole color supplimentation. Going by your statement Ed, this supplimentation is just stored until it can be used as a froglet and is it worth supplimenting the tadpoles?

I've seen the benifits of supplimenting tadpoles as getting a kind of head start on the coloring up process.

I definately go for beta carotene mostly because it is the safest, but I'm definately looking into the cyclopeeze... these are suppose to be different carotenes so would it be risky for me to combine them? I believe you mentioned before Ed that beta carotene really only helps with oranges and yellows but not some of the true reds, I'd like to round out my suppliments to get more of that true red (and is the stuff in they cyclopeeze the stuff to do it).

Beta carotene can only take a frog so close to wild color, but I'd like to get it even closer.
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Old 11-04-2005, 01:06 AM
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Some interesting thoughts:

Ben Green did an experiment showing that supplementation doesn't do much after metamorphis for vittatus (tadpole supplementation is critical).
I believe it is also true for tinctorius, as far as how deep their yellow "eyebrows" are. However, while I'm not 100% sure, but I believe vittatus and tincs morph out with adult coloration and do not "color up" after a period of time like tricolors do.

Out of curiosity, are their instances of tricolors fading like pumilio do?

Do pumilio morph out red/ red-orange or do they as well need to "color up?"

While I agree that supplementation in the "tadpole stage" probably is valid for at least some dendrobatid frogs, from reading what Brent has done to his pumilio, it doesn't seem to matter the age for some anurans, at least the pumilio (but I could still be wrong). If the colors do not fade on tricolor, there might as well be a "cut off point," and possibility, like Ed said, that there is a set number of xanthophores after a certain point, depending on the type and amount of supplementation....

But if the tricolor actually fade (what do WC frogs look like a few months to years later?), its very possible that there is no set age and that the frogs will color up, just perhaps more slowly.

The algae that are responsible for containing Astaxanthin are also found in freshwater habitats, from reading about various populations of Bombina having different shades of red to orange, depending if the frogs are eating crustaceans with the right type of algae found in that area for redness. However, there is no evidence I can think of that astaxanthin is present in South American biotopes.

This doesn't rule out the possibility that the frogs will still color up (if young enough) AFTER they metamorphis.

How long did it take Brent's pumilio to turn brighter? I've only been using my cyclopeeze for a few weeks, but previous feedings had very little cyclopeeze to what I am using now. Only this more concentrated feeding I've done once.

Can anybody show me pics of tricolors 2 years or older? What is the "reaching full color" supposed to look like of *most cb frogs? My frogs are a wine maroon color, burnt red. Not a cherry red, but not a deep rose red either. However, my frogs are still just a little over a year, and have reddened somewhat.
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Old 11-04-2005, 02:10 AM
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I have no idea if tricolor fade or not without supplimentation, but I want to say no. I've got a pic of a gorgeous WC SI tricolor I got from Chuck Nishirhara, and the animal was just as bright as wilds, but had been in captivity for years. They also lived in a greenhouse tho, and I don't know what the CBs in there looked like.

Pumilio can and do fade in captivity, I've seen that, and I also know they don't fall under the "time limit" talked about before... I couldn't color up a tricolor over 4 years old, but pumilio that had been at NAIB for a long time that had faded from BriBri red to rusty brown, and with supplimentation (sweet potato fed pinheads) turned back to a firey orange red (don't know how much of the original color this was as I've never seen a while BriBri, but I've seen Squirreles (sp?) and they were more red than these guys). Seems pumilio can fade and gain color any stage in life and probibly need continuous supplimentation.

Seems that tricolor and pumilio are both very diet dependent... but in different ways.

Reaching full color potential for me is getting wild caught colors. In most CBs this isn't done, and honestly a lot of people might not even realize their frogs aren't reaching full color potential because they don't know that that is in their frogs (do most people realize how intense a WC or well colored up cobalt is when they don't see them?).
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Old 11-04-2005, 02:22 AM
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snip " this supplimentation is just stored until it can be used as a froglet and is it worth supplimenting the tadpoles?"

Whether or not it can be stored depends on the carotenoid. It is known that beta carotene can be stored in the fat cells and the skin (and I would assume other carotenoids that have previtamin A activity). The ones that do not have previtamin A activity as far as I know have not been demonstrated to be stored in the fat cells and/or skin.
However, this does not mean that the carotenoids (quantity and type) in the diet cannot or do not stimulate the development of xanthopores post metamorphosis. (Say by increasing the stimulation of a feedback mechanism during metamorphosis)....

There are over 500 different known carotenoids at this time. The metabolic effects of all of these different carotenoids is unknown at this time much less if there is any synergistic effects (if I understand you correctly Corey).
It is true beta carotene for yellows and oranges but it can also play a part in intensifying greens (which is why it may be possible in theory to interfere with blue colors with high beta carotene supplementation).
Astaxanthin does help with reds in fish and crustaceans but it also intensifies oranges (it is the pigment in salmon flesh) but there are other carotenoids that can have that effect but they can also be more risky or have an unknown effects. Frogs in the wild get a large variety of carotenoids via the gut contents of the insects they feed on as well as anything that is in the developement site (which can include algaes, plant material, insects or other crustaceans).

snip "However, there is no evidence I can think of that astaxanthin is present in South American biotopes"

Is there evidence that it is not there?? However in any case this does not mean that the mechanism for sequestering carotenoids as a pigment will not work for the astaxanthin. As a slight reach, the pathways that deal with carotenoids that previtamin A activity can deal with multiple types of carotenoids and thier isomers (but the conversion rate of each type is not the same). I have my doubts that the sequestering mechanism for use as a pigment will be so selective as to require specific carotenoids given how many different types of carotenoids have been found to date.
Differences between species as to when they color up, how much and fading does not surprise me.
As for the fading of some species, this may simply be due to how efficient the frog is at scavenging the carotenoid from cells in the xanthopore as the cells age and are replaced. If the frog is not efficient at scavenging the carotenoids then it can only be expected to fade as time goes on (as is reported for pumilio). As for tricolor as I remember it, the adults did not fade significantly (but I am going back over ten years now) but the offspring did not achieve the same levels of color as the adults. In the cb tricolor there is a wide variety of adult coloration due to the use of different supplements, ff media, and meadow sweepings.

Some more disjointed thoughts.

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Old 11-04-2005, 03:02 PM
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LOL, my frogs have been pretty stubborn lately. What's funny, i generously coated my tricolor's food this morning with cyclopeeze, and not many took it (funny, they ate like hogs yesterday, without it). I have offered it one other time before, and they took it though without complaints.

My tinc on the other hand, who really doesn't even need it, ate every coated fly in seconds before it got rubbed off.
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