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Old 11-11-2019, 02:04 AM
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Default ideas for new feeders

does anybody know of any new feeders that are good for not just regular dart frogs, but thumbnails as well, got springtails, isopods and melangaster FF's going currently

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Old 11-11-2019, 04:29 PM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

The only thing else i feed is pinhead crickets but that is a very rare snack and only for my adults. besides that i stick with the ones you mentioned. I couldnt tell you if a thumbnail could take them though zero experience there.
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Old 11-12-2019, 03:49 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

You could also try bean beetles.
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:06 PM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

Newly hatched hornworms, that is, 1-3 days post hatching, make a good alternative feeder.
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Old 11-12-2019, 05:19 PM
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Is this an anthropomorphic desire? I don’t have any problem with inflecting my desire for variety on my frogs. If you’re searching for something based on a nutritional component, using dusted Drosophila is very adequate.
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Old 11-12-2019, 09:10 PM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

The insects I culture are : aphids, wich I feed at least weekly, all frogs eat them. Same goes for greenbugs (Schizaphis graminum). These are probably the thumbnails favorites.

Also 3 types of ff's : Hydei, Melanogaster and Melanogaster "Vestigial".
And 2 kinds of Isopods : Trichorhina tomentosa and porecllionides pruinosus (juveniles for all and terribilis also gets adults). I have more types of isopods in the tanks, but I do not culture them.

Thermobia domestica is also a very wanted insect for all of my frogs! Unfortunatly I don't have allot of acces to these,I mostly get these from Johanovic. I think I will setup up a culture in the near future so I also can feed these on a weekly base.

Hope this helps in your search for more feeders to culture yourself.
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Old 11-12-2019, 11:58 PM
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Are green bugs hard to culture?
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Old 11-13-2019, 01:09 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
The insects I culture are : aphids, wich I feed at least weekly, all frogs eat them. Same goes for greenbugs (Schizaphis graminum). These are probably the thumbnails favorites.
Can you share some info on Schizaphis graminum? How are they differ from pea aphids? How are they cultured? Where did you get them from? Thanks.

Last edited by amgini; 11-13-2019 at 01:12 AM.
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Old 11-13-2019, 02:42 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

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Is this an anthropomorphic desire? I donít have any problem with inflecting my desire for variety on my frogs. If youíre searching for something based on a nutritional component, using dusted Drosophila is very adequate.
This, this, this.

Hobby's complicated enough without making it more so.
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Old 11-13-2019, 03:29 AM
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I'm actually interested in this topic because I'm curious if there is a more efficient feeder insect to culture. I don't think the probability of finding one is high, but that's not a reason to cease exploration and experimentation. I've seen some extremely small crickets in my area that I've always wanted to attempt culturing, but I haven't had time unfortunately. With all the insect species out there, i suspect someone will stumble on something at some point.

Is love to hear about anything else that has been tried.
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Old 11-13-2019, 03:33 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

There is nothing to replace the 'gold standard' of Fruit flies for dart frog keeping.

nothing.

and I've been doing this for over 15 years.
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Old 11-13-2019, 03:53 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

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There is nothing to replace the 'gold standard' of Fruit flies for dart frog keeping.

nothing.

and I've been doing this for over 15 years.
C'mon...

It takes, what, 10 minutes a week to set up cxs for a whole room full of frogs. Ten whole minutes! Don't you think it is worth tens of hours of research, and investigation into culturing equipment, and purchase of that equipment, and new media mixes, and identification of potential feeder species, and research into their breeding cycles, and studies of nutritional profiles*, and testing these prey on a range of captive Dendrobatids to cut that down to eight or even seven minutes? Imagine the possibilities!!




Ahem...

*https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...osophila&btnG=

Holy cow, do we humans have a handle on Drosophila.

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Old 11-13-2019, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

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Are green bugs hard to culture?
No, but they are not so easy to collect and transfer from an older to new culture. I use the same method that I use for the aphids : https://youtu.be/rV_nfzYgrIE

Quote:
Originally Posted by amgini View Post
Can you share some info on Schizaphis graminum? How are they differ from pea aphids? How are they cultured? Where did you get them from? Thanks.
I think these pictures show the differenc. Again, I use the same method as I use to get the peas to sprout. Only difference is that I let the peas soak for 12hours and the wheat only soaks for an hour. I got them from a fellow frog enthousiast who has been way longer in the hobby than me.

This is what a greenbug culture looks like after 4 days of enting. They yet have to explode. :


Same age aphid culture :


The wheat I use for the greenbugs :

The peas for the aphids :


Cheers.
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Old 11-13-2019, 08:34 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

These pictures show a culture I used to start new cultures from. I hope hese shows the size of full grown greenbugs better :


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Old 11-13-2019, 04:24 PM
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Saying there is no better alternative than fruit flies seems silly. That means no improvements could ever be made. It is a great feeder but all options will have plus and minus. The only reason we use fruit flies is because that was chosen a century ago for genetics research so husbandry was nailed down. If someone chose a different small insect we would have all those years of research to support that instead. Someone has to try new things or we will never advance.
A lot of developmental biology is done in zebrafish. This is because there is a ton of existing literature in developmental biology in zebrafish. Why was the zebrafish chosen? It was the cheapest fish at the pet store on the first day they planned the first study. Is it the best model animal? No. But no one wants to do the leg work to get a better one set up.
The fruit fly has tons of advantages but is not the best. An ideal feeder would not climb glass. (We all work hard to fruit fly proof our tops). An ideal feeder would be more nutritious or could be guttloaded so it would not always need dusting.
Yes 10 minutes a week is not much work, but that husbandry has been refined a lot over time. We have premade media etc that didn’t exist at the start of FF culturing. I remember using AGAR. So if a feeder is better in one way (like no escapees) but husbandry isn’t refined, it shouldn’t be discouraged.
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Old 11-13-2019, 05:13 PM
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Saying there is no better alternative than fruit flies seems silly.
You're totally right. Seems silly.

Can you name one? 'Cause I sure can't.
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Old 11-13-2019, 05:40 PM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

Thanks for the info Tijl. What are the advantages of culturing greenbugs vs pea aphids? Are they easier? More nutritious? I would love to give them a try if I could find a source for a starter culture here in the US.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:07 PM
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The biggest advantage imo is the cultures last a lot longer than aphid cultures. Aphids or the peaplant die faster. Also the greenbugs are allot smaller, for feeding juveniles this is also a big advantage. I find them hunting in the weath plants all the time. They are able to eat adult and joung greenbugs.

I hope you are able to get your hands on them. I wish I could help,butI think this will be expensive and not very easy to ship overseas...

Don't forget the other insect I mentioned are also very good. I am always searching for as many insects possible to feed my frogs. Variaty is important imo.

I hope to get to know some other interesting insects I havn't heard of before in this topic.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:11 PM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
Saying there is no better alternative than fruit flies seems silly. That means no improvements could ever be made. It is a great feeder but all options will have plus and minus. The only reason we use fruit flies is because that was chosen a century ago for genetics research so husbandry was nailed down. If someone chose a different small insect we would have all those years of research to support that instead. Someone has to try new things or we will never advance.
A lot of developmental biology is done in zebrafish. This is because there is a ton of existing literature in developmental biology in zebrafish. Why was the zebrafish chosen? It was the cheapest fish at the pet store on the first day they planned the first study. Is it the best model animal? No. But no one wants to do the leg work to get a better one set up.
The fruit fly has tons of advantages but is not the best. An ideal feeder would not climb glass. (We all work hard to fruit fly proof our tops). An ideal feeder would be more nutritious or could be guttloaded so it would not always need dusting.
Yes 10 minutes a week is not much work, but that husbandry has been refined a lot over time. We have premade media etc that didnít exist at the start of FF culturing. I remember using AGAR. So if a feeder is better in one way (like no escapees) but husbandry isnít refined, it shouldnít be discouraged.
Check my post count...I've been helping people here a long time...

There is nothing better.

Right now, I have yellow and red Oophaga lehmanni, Oophaga histrionica - 2 species. Oophaga sylvatica, 10 different species of pumilio and...Ameerega silverstonei. ALL breeding and only due to the staple of fruit flies and an excellent superfine supplement rotation. So as you can see, I have a LITTLE bit invested in keeping dart frogs healthy and breeding for a long time.

You CAN use other feeder insects to SUPPLEMENT but never as a staple.

If someone is unable or unwilling to culture fruit flies on a regular and responsible basis, then this hobby and animal choice is not for them. It's just that simple. There is no re-inventing the wheel. There is no 'easier' way.

There is a large amount of bad info going around re 'bioactive' and people thinking a vivarium is going to 'self produce' enough food and nutrients to sustain a living vertebrate and that info has probably led to more failure and dead animals than anyone knows.
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Old 11-13-2019, 06:51 PM
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No other insect could ever be a staple?! I’m not saying ff are a bad staple but to blanket claim that out of millions of species of insect only this will work is ludacris. Yes we all use or should use ff, but we shouldn’t discourage anyone from trying to culture other insects. It may start out as a lot of work but new refined techniques and methods come from trying new things. I remember when standard advice for darts was to only give them fresh air when you pop the Tupperware to feed. I mean there are what 40-50 species of regularly cultured insects in this hobby? That’s hardly a fraction of a fraction of a percent that people have even looked at. Do you really hope no one ever tries anything new?
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Old 11-13-2019, 07:59 PM
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No other insect could ever be a staple?! Iím not saying ff are a bad staple but to blanket claim that out of millions of species of insect only this will work is ludacris. Yes we all use or should use ff, but we shouldnít discourage anyone from trying to culture other insects. It may start out as a lot of work but new refined techniques and methods come from trying new things. I remember when standard advice for darts was to only give them fresh air when you pop the Tupperware to feed. I mean there are what 40-50 species of regularly cultured insects in this hobby? Thatís hardly a fraction of a fraction of a percent that people have even looked at. Do you really hope no one ever tries anything new?
Nobody is preventing anyone from trying anything new.

When someone comes up with a better alternative to Fruit Flies - it'll get posted here and FB immediately.

In the meantime, the blanket statement from me is "If you are unwilling or unable to responsibly and regularly culture Fruit flies, then this hobby and animal is not for you"

There is no shame in owning a goldfish...
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Old 11-13-2019, 09:28 PM
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Cap'n, you're kinda listing to port on this one.

No one ever said there is no insect in the world that fits into this discussion. We're talking about insects that currently exist in the hobby, or even are currently produced in captivity. And of every single one of those, FFs come out on top.

Also: the question was asked by someone who was a little into darts in the (not so recent) past, and who now is really just getting their bearings again. (Gavin, you're asking some good questions! Thank you!). Philsuma's advice is the best advice to give in such a situation. That's what we're here for: good advice.

I do hope you prove him (and me -- because I agree -- and most hobbyists, I think) wrong by coming up with some practical alternative. Until then, I hope people who are looking for feeding advice accept that there is no more reliable, healthy, safe, easy, proven food source for adult dart frogs than dusted fruit flies.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:10 PM
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Folks, I'm not going to respond to individual posts in this thread because it's moved to the realm of pointlessness.

I'll make one post (because I'm not interested in hi-jacking this thread) to ask everyone to look at ourselves. We just pushed a thread asking the community about new feeder insects into a flame war full of posts with incredulity and snark.

Maybe this is why people lurk here for years and never join or post anything.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:30 PM
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Thanks Tijl. I would be willing to pay to have them shipped from overseas but I don't think they would survive such a long journey. I'm always interested in trying new source of food and I haven't heard much about greenbugs here in the US.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:52 PM
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Folks, I'm not going to respond to individual posts in this thread because it's moved to the realm of pointlessness.

I'll make one post (because I'm not interested in hi-jacking this thread) to ask everyone to look at ourselves. We just pushed a thread asking the community about new feeder insects into a flame war full of posts with incredulity and snark.

Maybe this is why people lurk here for years and never join or post anything.
Flame war full of incredulity and snark? Really? If so, you have the skin of a grape sir.

You are your own worst reason if you decide not to join or post.
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Old 11-13-2019, 10:56 PM
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Flame war full of incredulity and snark? Really? If so, you have the skin of a grape sir.

You are your own worst reason if you decide not to join or post.
Thanks for making my point for me. I couldn't have asked for better support of my position.
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Old 11-13-2019, 11:11 PM
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I am going to look into growing a crop of those pea aphids. Full anthropomorphism. That’s fun to me. Imagining little new Dendrobatidae neural connections cause they see something that isn’t a melanogaster. Fun.
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Old 11-14-2019, 02:23 AM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

I actually regularly ponder the potentiality of feeders somewhere the galaxy of insects on the planet.

Yes I am grateful to our founding fruitfly fathers and the productivity and reliability of drosophila.

But I wouldnt mind the extra work, if thats what it took, if another equitable subject was discovered and its husbandry developed, where the culture media used wasnt so microbially fecund. I admit it.

I realize that methylparaben is heavily data'd but if I had a choice to not have it in every fly my guys eat, I admit I would like that too.
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Old Yesterday, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: ideas for new feeders

i guess i really opened up a debate here, I'm not asking simply to satisfy some anthropomorphic desire to complicate their diet, I realize that fruit flies will likely be the standard staple for years to come. I only ask because i think darts might benefit from a more varied diet and that there could be something better out there. We should all look to improve and diversify the hobby. I think more feeders makes the whole process more fun. thanks for the pea aphids, I hadn't heard of that before.

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Old Yesterday, 09:54 PM
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I find it weird that there is only a hand full of people that actualy gaves examples of insects. I hope to get to know some more insects beeing cultured for our frogs and hopefully try to culture some for myself.
I would be shokked if most of the frogs in captivity only got flies and springtails and supplments? Or is this me wishfull thinking?

Johanovic told me a month or 2 aggo that he was culturing something "new to me" and if he had a few culutures going I could start one for myself. But I can't rember the name correct, so I also can't translate... When I find out, I will post the name here aswell.


In 2-3 weeks I am also going to start just a few cultures of Beanbeetles, Thermobia domestica and also Tribolium castaneum(only for their larvae).

I can try and make a topic of "how to culture"... If this would be usefull?
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Old Today, 12:02 AM
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The only thing I’ve used outside of Drosophila is Musca domestica larvae. Even then only the biggest tinctorius eat them. Having anything bigger than house fly maggots is inhibitory to them actually eating them.
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Old Today, 12:16 AM
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Tijl do you feed Thermobia domestica to your pumilios, especially escudo? They seem too big for small frogs.
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