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-   Food & Feeding (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/)
-   -   Cal+, does it do it all? (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/food-feeding/351248-cal-does-do-all.html)

MKF 04-14-2019 08:24 PM

Cal+, does it do it all?
 
I have read a bunch of calcium threads on here but can't find the answer to my question about this. Can you exclusively use Cal+ for dusting? I see some people feed Vit A once or twice a month and I thought Cal+ had that in it, so why the need to supplement a few times a month?

Socratic Monologue 04-15-2019 03:10 AM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
Sometimes frogs that are breeding need a little extra Vitamin A (well, it is the offspring that need the Vit A).

If you're not breeding your frogs, simply dusting with Calcium Plus at every feeding is fine.

Encyclia 04-15-2019 01:21 PM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
Calcium Plus, as good as it is, has to be designed for a specific set of circumstances. Its balance of nutrients is static, not dynamic. That means that it is treating all frogs the same regardless of their age, whether they are breeding, how often they are fed and what they are eating, etc. Repashy has done a great job with this balance for most instances, but it may not capture every situation. Some folks choose to augment with other things to alter the balance to reflect specific situations. I have heard of people doing this regularly with Vitamin A in breeding situations but some folks will also add things like Superpig or Super Vite or other things. For the majority of situations, however, Calcium Plus is great.

SM, I am curious about your comment about Vit A being more necessary for the offspring than the adults. My experience has been that I need to start monkeying with the balance of things when I am getting repeated instances of infertile clutches from the parents (not that this is always the problem - it's just where I start trying to solve it). I had never heard reference to needing to make up for a deficiency in the offspring. I suppose it makes sense that if the parents are barely scraping by on a given vitamin, that situation would pass on to the offspring, too.

Mark

Socratic Monologue 04-15-2019 02:30 PM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Encyclia (Post 3061398)
SM, I am curious about your comment about Vit A being more necessary for the offspring than the adults. My experience has been that I need to start monkeying with the balance of things when I am getting repeated instances of infertile clutches from the parents (not that this is always the problem - it's just where I start trying to solve it). I had never heard reference to needing to make up for a deficiency in the offspring. I suppose it makes sense that if the parents are barely scraping by on a given vitamin, that situation would pass on to the offspring, too.

My thoughts about Vitamin A were focused on infertility and SLS -- both of which, strictly speaking, affect only the offspring (either failing to form properly, in the latter case, or failing to come to be at all, in the former case).

Certainly infertility -- when hypovitaminosis A is a factor -- is a matter of the parents' diet (or some third factor that affects nutrient uptake, or the like). My untutored assumption is that SLS -- where hypo A is a factor -- is likely affected at least in part by the parents' diet in all frogs, and likely completely related to the parents' diet in the case of egg-feeders. I'd be very happy to be educated otherwise by the more experienced and knowledgable here.

I'm not sure that I personally would be likely to wait for signs of deficiency before supplementing. I exercise not after I have a heart attack, but rather to prevent one. It seems as if quite a few folks here routinely supplement A, so I ride that wagon.

Encyclia 04-15-2019 02:55 PM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue (Post 3061404)
My thoughts about Vitamin A were focused on infertility and SLS -- both of which, strictly speaking, affect only the offspring (either failing to form properly, in the latter case, or failing to come to be at all, in the former case).

Certainly infertility -- when hypovitaminosis A is a factor -- is a matter of the parents' diet (or some third factor that affects nutrient uptake, or the like). My untutored assumption is that SLS -- where hypo A is a factor -- is likely affected at least in part by the parents' diet in all frogs, and likely completely related to the parents' diet in the case of egg-feeders. I'd be very happy to be educated otherwise by the more experienced and knowledgable here.

I'm not sure that I personally would be likely to wait for signs of deficiency before supplementing. I exercise not after I have a heart attack, but rather to prevent one. It seems as if quite a few folks here routinely supplement A, so I ride that wagon.

That all makes sense. As for SLS, I am not all that sure why most people don't struggle with it anymore (see how infrequently it comes up on the board and it seems to be mostly a supplementation issue when it does come up). I looked it up a little bit and it looks like people have varying proposals for what it is that the turn-around can be attributed to. I am glad we are living in the time we are where SLS is not something I have ever had to deal with.

I should have clarified that I am not waiting until there is a problem to supplement more than just Calcium Plus. I supplement with Calcium Plus and add some Vit A (and some Superpig sometimes) to augment the Calcium Plus for all of my frogs (regardless of their breeding status). Even with that, however, I will still occasionally have a situation with either a) new frogs that I don't know have been supplemented correctly in the first place or b) frogs I have had for a while that I have not bred for whatever reason. These situations sometimes require different kinds of supplementation intervention depending on the situation. I am not "waiting for signs of deficiency" but that doesn't mean that they don't crop up periodically regardless of how I am supplementing. I guess the moral of the story is that you can't be slavishly devoted to any particular approach, especially if have reason to believe that what you are doing isn't working. I didn't mean to imply that I am only using Calcium Plus and hoping for the best :-)

Mark

Socratic Monologue 04-15-2019 03:30 PM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Encyclia (Post 3061408)
I should have clarified that I am not waiting until there is a problem to supplement more than just Calcium Plus.

Mark, I read this into your post without your having written it. I assumed your baseline -- before 'monkeying around' -- to include no additional Vit A. Completely groundless assumption on my part.

Encyclia 04-15-2019 03:33 PM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
No worries at all. Just wanted to make sure I was being clear.

Ravage 04-15-2019 11:40 PM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
I was under the assumption (and I checked, so I think it's a correct assumption) that Vitamin A was important in pituitary/gonadal function- specifically Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). Perhaps Ed will show up and set us straight, but I use it as a supplement for breeding adults. I seem to remember that deformities in the young caused by Vit A deficiency in the parents were generally not correctable by giving Vitamin A to the affected young. Here's where a highly knowledgeable keeper could help.
I use Super Cal LoD, Vit. A monthly for Adults in breeding situations, or who might be getting there, SuperPig once or twice a month (it's also in the Repashy Calciums I recently found out). And Super Vit twice a month for everybody. I have good size, great color, and pleasing songs- and that's the extent of my knowledge.

Encyclia 04-16-2019 12:04 AM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravage (Post 3061436)
I was under the assumption (and I checked, so I think it's a correct assumption) that Vitamin A was important in pituitary/gonadal function- specifically Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). Perhaps Ed will show up and set us straight, but I use it as a supplement for breeding adults. I seem to remember that deformities in the young caused by Vit A deficiency in the parents were generally not correctable by giving Vitamin A to the affected young. Here's where a highly knowledgeable keeper could help.
I use Super Cal LoD, Vit. A monthly for Adults in breeding situations, or who might be getting there, SuperPig once or twice a month (it's also in the Repashy Calciums I recently found out). And Super Vit twice a month for everybody. I have good size, great color, and pleasing songs- and that's the extent of my knowledge.

Hi Jeff,
Vit A is part of the "Plus" in Calcium Plus, so it is assumed that the frogs will be getting some Vit A without adding to it via Repashy Vitamin A Plus. What we are talking about, I think, is whether to add extra servings of Vit A (again, by adding Repashy Vitamin A Plus) and thus re-jigger the ratio of Vit A that the frogs would be receiving if we were just doing Calcium Plus. It was never suggested that the frogs should not receive ANY vitamin A.

Mark

dmb5245 04-16-2019 06:43 PM

Re: Cal+, does it do it all?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MKF (Post 3061362)
Can you exclusively use Cal+ for dusting? I see some people feed Vit A once or twice a month and I thought Cal+ had that in it, so why the need to supplement a few times a month?

Based on the specs on the bottles, there is 10x as much vitamin A per pound in the Repashy Vitamin A Plus as there is in the calcium plus. So its a big boost of Vit-A when it's used. Obviously, using this at every feeding would be a bad idea since Vit-A accumulates.

I'm pretty firmly in the once or twice a month crowd and not just when frogs are producing eggs. On this board there are quite a few cases of "short tongue syndrome" or "sticky tongue syndrome" where the frogs aren't producing enough mucous, which is a manifestation of Vit-A deficiency. On the contrary, I don't see many instances of Vit-A overdose despite all the people cycling in Repashy VitA+ as part of their supplement schedule.

Is Cal+ enough by itself? Probably if you are good about storing/replacing and your frogs don't wait around for the flies to groom themselves of the bulk of the dust before eating. But for nine bucks every six months, I think its a good idea to err a little on the side of excess Vit-A and avoid the potential deficiency.


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