New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids - Dendroboard
Dendroboard

Go Back   Dendroboard > Dart Frogs > Food & Feeding
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Advertise

Support Our Sponsors
No Threads to Display.

facebook

Like Tree39Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Hey Everyone,

I just received an email from Justin Yeager at Tulane University to let me know that the first of several publications on their study of dietary Carotenoids and their effects on reproduction in PDF's has been published today.

I was lucky enough to be contacted by Justin when the project started about using our Calcium Plus for their studies and I have excitedly supplied them over the last few years and been anxious to read the papers.

Some really interesting information for sure. I was particularly surprised to see the results of supplementing the fruit fly media with high carotenoids. I wish I could have got them to use Superfly and SuperPig also, but when this project started, I hadn't finished developing Superfly yet, and they had been making their own media for years that they had great success with... They also used their own blend of carotenoid ingredients for the fly culture (SuperPig was also a relatively new product at the time). (the study started in 2009)

I have uploaded the paper to our website so you guys can view and download it. Interesting stuff indeed. Enjoy!

http://www.store.repashy.com/media/CERDF

Allen

Last edited by Allen Repashy; 10-24-2013 at 05:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 20 Users Say Thank You to Allen Repashy For This Useful Post:
aspidites73 (10-24-2013), Boondoggle (05-05-2014), Calivet (10-24-2013), cml1287 (05-05-2014), dan d (10-24-2013), Dane (10-24-2013), Dendro Dave (10-25-2013), ForbiddenFrogs (10-24-2013), frogface (10-24-2013), frogfreak (10-24-2013), FroggyKnight (10-24-2013), JPccusa (10-24-2013), Reef_Haven (10-24-2013), Rusty_Shackleford (10-24-2013), Sherman (10-24-2013), SilverLynx (10-24-2013), tachikoma (01-07-2016), Trickishleaf (10-24-2013), Venutus1 (10-25-2013), ZookeeperDoug (10-24-2013)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 05:51 PM
Julio's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 10,094
Blog Entries: 2
Thanks: 7
Thanked 212 Times in 149 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

sweet! thanks for posting
__________________
Have a nice day

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/ven...340-julio.html
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Julio For This Useful Post:
Sherman (10-25-2013)
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:19 PM
hypostatic's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 2,437
Thanks: 122
Thanked 222 Times in 197 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Huh, interesting. Of most interest, I think, is that frogs that did NOT receive carotenoid supplementation laid 1.75X more clutches!

Quote:
Although tadpole and metamorph output was higher, the number of clutches produced by females was lower under carotenoid supplementation. This decreased clutch production suggests that (i) oogenesis is not limited by carotenoid availability [see also Ogilvy et al., 2012], and (ii) reproductive (vs. tropic) egg production is suppressed when females are caring for tadpoles, as they were more often under the carotenoid supplemented treatment.

Last edited by hypostatic; 10-24-2013 at 07:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 07:36 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Indeed, but it also states that the number of eggs per clutch was significantly higher, and the survival was higher, resulting in increased number of total offspring..... It makes sense the longer time between clutches allows for more transfer of nutrients to eggs......

Definitely not what you would expect.
FroggyKnight and SilverLynx like this.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 08:46 PM
Reef_Haven's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 933
Thanks: 70
Thanked 97 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

The amount of methylparaben in their media seems extreme to me. I thought the recommended amount was closer to 1 part per thousand. Anyone else using this much?
Maybe they misprinted the correct quantity, cause at least in this study that amount would be toxic to the fly larvae.
http://124.205.222.100/Jwk_spkx/EN/a...act11536.shtml
__________________
Kevin Flanders -
dartfrogsforsale.com

Last edited by Reef_Haven; 10-24-2013 at 08:54 PM. Reason: add study link
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 09:53 PM
oldlady25715's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Ventura,CA
Posts: 1,244
Blog Entries: 5
Thanks: 49
Thanked 52 Times in 44 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Interesting analysis. 63 pairs of pumilio is quite a good sample size.

I'd be interested in more info about the frogs. How long they were captive prior to the study--were they fresh off the boat or were they already kept for a period with the baseline media. Did they all have parasites? But I suppose as long as they were from the same import and quarantined uniformally, they constitute a suitable population for a study about ex situ breeding.

I was a little surprised to see tap water on the list of ingredients, given the specific nature of everything else.

Thanks for posting Allen,and I think your supplements and media work great.
__________________
my garage is an urban oasis
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:24 PM
frogfreak's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,555
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 177
Thanked 187 Times in 159 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
Huh, interesting. Of most interest, I think, is that frogs that did NOT receive carotenoid supplementation laid 1.75X more clutches!
But,

"egg production is suppressed when females
are caring for tadpoles, as they were more often under the
carotenoid"
__________________
Glenn
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:41 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

I was asked off board about the Methylparaben levels used in the study compared to what I use in my Superfly product... I didn't realize how high they were until it was pointed out...... I thought I would go ahead and post my reply publicly because I think it might be of interest to most....

Hi XXXXX,

I didn't even notice that but yeah, that is a freaking LOT of methyl paraben.

I use a combination of six ingredients to control mold and bacteria: Calcium propionate, Malic Acid Cinnamon,Potassium citrate, methylparaben, Potassium Sorbate (In that order)

While I don't divulge exact proprietary information, I will say that the methylparaben levels I use would be measured in fractions of a percent.

On a dry matter basis, they appear to have used close to 10% methylparaben in their mix. When I originally started working on the Superfly, 90% of the real development work I did was learning how to control mold and bacteria...... nutritionally, fly media is a no brainer more or less. When you use a single preservative, you get great control over some types of growth and poor control over others..... So you just have to keep adding more until you control the difficult ones also...... often ending in levels that are very high like what you see here.....

My approach was to use different preservatives that each targeted different types of bacteria/mold...... and work in different conditions..... PH plays a huge roll in control also. Different preservatives/organic acids function at different PH levels..... For example, Sorbic Acid works very well at Low PH, but not so well at Neutral PH, where Propionic acid works better... I use Malic Acid and Citric Acid (from Potassium Citrate) to get the PH where I want it to be and keep it there using mineral buffers like the calcium and potassium....

Long story short, by first focusing on PH level and stability (which I think no other media manufacturers do) I first try to create the best environment for the preservatives to "work" in.... then by using different preservatives/organic acids that work on different types of molds and bacterias (for example, some ingredients work well with gram positive bacteria, some better with gram negative... some are better for black mold, and some better for the white fuzzy stuff)..... I can use much lower overall levels of preservatives, while dividing it again by a number of different ingredients to avoid any potential negative effects a single ingredient might contribute.

So even using lower overall levels, the right combination of ingredients can still be more effective then super high levels of a single one. Methylparaben WILL kill it all..... but you can see the kind of levels necessary to do so..... more than three times total level of all the ingredients I use combined.... and it is the most toxic of all the preservatives IMHO.

Allen
Reef_Haven and mpedersen like this.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Allen Repashy For This Useful Post:
mpedersen (10-19-2017)
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 10:47 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Just as a FYI, to create similar carotenoid levels to those used in the study (it is not apples to apples because I use a much broader spectrum of carotenoid ingredients compared to those in the study) I would estimate that in addition to the superpig levels already in the Superfly, that you would need to mix about nine parts Superfly with one part SuperPig to come up with a "similar" level of carotenoids in the media. This would creat a media higher in overall carotenoids than the study media, but have similar levels of astaxanthin..... I do need to check my math on this though because I am just doing this off the top of my head.

HOLD THAT THOUGHT.... I think I am off quite a bit here..... let me to some more math.. Be back soon.....................




OK, I ran some numbers through my software, and adding 5% (DMB) SuperPig to the Superfly should give us approximately:

Beta Carotene mg/kg 90.0000
Astaxanthan mg/kg 50.0000
Lutein mg/kg 135.0000
Capsanthin 37.5000
Zeaxanthin mg/kg 15.0000
Lycopene mg/kg 10.0000
TOTAL MEASURED CAROTENOIDS 337.5000

A pretty comparable amount to the study..... over on some and under on others but overall, quite a bit higher in total carotenoids.





Allen
frogfreak and John1451 like this.

Last edited by Allen Repashy; 10-24-2013 at 11:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:20 PM
frogfreak's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,555
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 177
Thanked 187 Times in 159 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

This is very interesting as I feed a lot of larvae at times.

Done yet?
__________________
Glenn
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to frogfreak For This Useful Post:
SilverLynx (10-29-2013)
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:29 PM
SilverLynx's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 121
Thanks: 19
Thanked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Allen,

Thanks for posting the study. I am not surprised by the conclusions. I personally
use Superpig, Calcium Plus and Superfly I also add natural forms of carotenoids to the Superfly, as I am a firm believer that the gutload/media is extremely important and this study confirms that. I am interested in the amount of Superpig needed to replicate the carotenoid amounts used in the study.

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:35 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Hi Lane,

Scroll back a few posts about the SuperPig levels as I just went back and accurately calculated it out.

Allen
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2013, 11:43 PM
SilverLynx's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 121
Thanks: 19
Thanked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Allen,

I just saw the edit with the 5%. Keep up the good work!!! This scientist loves your products. Btw, I am seeing major tad development using your Community Plus.

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx
Allen Repashy likes this.

Last edited by SilverLynx; 10-24-2013 at 11:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 12:24 AM
Reef_Haven's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 933
Thanks: 70
Thanked 97 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

So this study indicates there is a change within the flies that improved their nutritive value, that can't be addressed by simply increasing the amounts of carotenoids in the dusting supplement?
__________________
Kevin Flanders -
dartfrogsforsale.com
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 12:33 AM
Reef_Haven's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 933
Thanks: 70
Thanked 97 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Repashy View Post
Hi Lane,

Scroll back a few posts about the SuperPig levels as I just went back and accurately calculated it out.

Allen
Superpig contains vitamin E, I thought we were concerned with flies accumulating Vitamin E to levels that would throw off the balance to Vitamins A and D?
__________________
Kevin Flanders -
dartfrogsforsale.com
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 12:40 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

According to what I am reading, Calcium Plus was used for both groups, so if that was the case, then it is saying exactly that.

Could we duplicate this by dusting with more Superpig.... possibly so... If we mixed Calcium Plus with say 50% Superpig, that would give us a lot more carotenoids..... but it would cut the calcium and vitamins like Retinol, in half... SuperPig is also not what I would consider a micro-fine powder, so to get a good stick, you would need to take the time to grind it down finer....

There is also the issue that it is possible that the larvae are metabolizing the carotenoids into something that can't be provided by direct supplementation.

Like every study I read, I walk away with some good answers, but I always feel like I get more new questions to ask than answers.....

The study does contradict my presumption from other publications that it wasn't valuable to supplement drosophila with carotenoids, so that in it's self is a revelation and the main point to digest from this article IMHO.


Allen
mpedersen likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 12:42 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reef_Haven View Post
Superpig contains vitamin E, I thought we were concerned with flies accumulating Vitamin E to levels that would throw off the balance to Vitamins A and D?
SuperPig does NOT contain any added vitamin E. Not sure where you got that from.

Ingredients below.... though I did recently decide to add another ingredient to SuperPig.. Watermelon Extract.... for it's high levels of the carotenoid Lycopene.

SuperPig
Carotenoid Supplement

Our Pigment Enhancement Formula is a Carotenoid Supplement designed to enhance the diet of Reptiles, Fish, Amphibians and Birds.

INFORMATION: Contains a “broad spectrum” of Carotenoids including, but not limited to: Astaxanthin, Capsanthin, Capsorubin, Beta-Carotene, Alpha Carotene, Beta Cryptoxanthin, Zeaxanthin, Neoaxanthin, Cucurbitaxanthin, Violaxanthin, Lutein, Echineone, Canthaxanthin and Lycopene.

INGREDIENTS: Calendula Flower, Pfaffia Yeast, Paprika, Marigold Flower, Algae Meal (Chlorella and Spirulina), RoseHips, Hibiscus Flower, Turmeric.


Last edited by Allen Repashy; 10-25-2013 at 12:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 01:15 AM
Reef_Haven's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 933
Thanks: 70
Thanked 97 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Thank you Allen. Sent you a PM.
__________________
Kevin Flanders -
dartfrogsforsale.com
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Reef_Haven For This Useful Post:
Allen Repashy (10-25-2013)
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 04:06 AM
ecichlid's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Palatine, IL
Posts: 808
Thanks: 72
Thanked 59 Times in 53 Posts
Default

Good stuff! On a practical level...

Is there enough Super Pig in Calcium Plus? Or should I dust with Super Pig on occasion? How often should I dust my melanogaster for my growing D. auratus? Can it be done too often?
__________________
Everyone is welcome! Chicagoland Froggers
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 02:19 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,997
Thanks: 49
Thanked 49 Times in 42 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

So that means they can utilize carotenoids much better than previously thought by converting to vit. a? or do they contain another function in not being converted?

And I thought anything added to the medium in the form of carotenoids wouldn't be passed on to the frogs? Are they talking about medium fortification or dusting?

Sorry, a little dry and I don't have the time to read thru just brushed the article.

Last edited by Roadrunner; 10-25-2013 at 02:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 03:22 PM
Reef_Haven's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Winter Haven, Florida
Posts: 933
Thanks: 70
Thanked 97 Times in 78 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm View Post
Are they talking about medium fortification or dusting?
According to the study, the only difference between the control group and study group was the additions to the fly media. Both groups were dusted the same with Repashy Calcium plus and additional Vit A every 3 months.
What the study did not try to confirm was whether additional carotenoid dusting would have made similar improvements.
The flies nutritive value definitely appears to have improved, but could the same effect have been shown with additional dusting is unknown.
Seems to support the argument for feeding a variety of different feeder insects.
__________________
Kevin Flanders -
dartfrogsforsale.com
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 03:56 PM
hypostatic's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 2,437
Thanks: 122
Thanked 222 Times in 197 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reef_Haven View Post
Seems to support the argument for feeding a variety of different feeder insects.
Here's a section of the paper on that:

Quote:
The natural diet of O. pumilio consists primarily of ants and mites [Toft, 1995], with the latter the more carotenoid‐rich food source [Olson, 2006]. As a replacement for the natural diet, carotenoid supplemented fruit flies were superior to unsupplemented ones in our captive colony.
Perhaps further highlighting the importance of prey item diet
breadth, we found that wild insects attracted to fruit
(primarily Drosophila spp.) allowed for successful reproduction by captive O. pumilio held outdoors at Bocas del Toro (unpublished data). Whether carotenoid supplementation addressed a vitamin A deficiency in this ex situ population and whether that deficiency limited reproductive success remain unclear.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 03:59 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

My interpretation is that when we consider the fact that the frogs should have been receiving more than ample Preformed Vitamin A (Retinol) from Calcium Plus AND a topical treatment, that the carotenoids are contributing other nutrients.

Meaning no amount of Retinol supplement can replace the carotenoids because they are contributing different things. We should consider carotenoids as their own group of "vitamins" that can't be replaced by anything else. These compounds are really just starting to be studied and understood.

After reading this, I have definitely changed my thoughts about the value of including significant amounts of carotenoids in the fly media. Superfly has SuperPig in it, but in low levels for two reasons. First, I was under the impression that it wasn't as important as this paper claims, and secondly, Superfly is already one of the most expensive fly medias on the market and adding a lot of superpig would just make most people think it was too expensive to even try.

If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so) The other option of course is to dust more with carotenoids, but I am not so sure that would be the best approach because you would be "cutting" the other nutrients you are dusting with. I also think it is easier to load the media than dust with carotenoids because of the particle size issues and actual stick to drosophila of these ingredients.

Allen

Last edited by Allen Repashy; 10-25-2013 at 04:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 04:10 PM
JPccusa's Avatar
Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,752
Thanks: 224
Thanked 241 Times in 154 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Repashy View Post
If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so)
I believe a "SuperFlyingPig" version would be ideal. I'm sure many people would switch from Calcium + to the new and improved version if the difference in price is not exorbitant.
hypostatic likes this.
__________________
JP
Moderator
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 04:14 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by JPccusa View Post
I believe a "SuperFlyingPig" version would be ideal. I'm sure many people would switch from Calcium + to the new and improved version if the difference in price is not exorbitant.
Hmm.... I don't understand what you are saying, as modifying Superfly has has nothing to do with Calcium Plus formulation or usage.
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 04:15 PM
SilverLynx's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 121
Thanks: 19
Thanked 16 Times in 11 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

I will be adding at least 5% SuperPig to to the Repashy Bug Burger and Community Plus. I put Bug Burger in all my Oophaga enclosures and grow out
tanks, creating feeding stations. The flies congregate and feed on the Bug Burger.

Thanks,
Lane, aka, SilverLynx
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 04:22 PM
JPccusa's Avatar
Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,752
Thanks: 224
Thanked 241 Times in 154 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Repashy View Post
Hmm.... I don't understand what you are saying, as modifying Superfly has has nothing to do with Calcium Plus formulation or usage.
Sorry for the confusion. I meant to say Superfly instead of Calcium +.
__________________
JP
Moderator
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to JPccusa For This Useful Post:
Allen Repashy (10-25-2013)
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 04:55 PM
Tincman's Avatar
TWI/ASN
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Flushing NY
Posts: 380
Thanks: 11
Thanked 29 Times in 25 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

This is pretty cool, we were just discussing Vitamin Supplementation in another thread & someone brought up the possibility of adding CoEnzymes/Vitamins to insects diet in order to create more nutritious feeders.. Its great that you posted this right now.. You are what you eat I guess... I wonder if there are any other ways to make flies more nutritious..?
SilverLynx likes this.
__________________
A Froggers Work is Never Done. Heres my FB page https://www.facebook.com/tincmanherps
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 04:59 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,997
Thanks: 49
Thanked 49 Times in 42 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

So carotenoids can be passed on to the frogs thru enhanced media and not just thru what is found in the ff's eyes. Wasn't there talk about "gutloading" or further enhancing the flies nutritive value by additions to the medium? Didn't someone say it couldn't be done?
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:16 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogfarm View Post
So carotenoids can be passed on to the frogs thru enhanced media and not just thru what is found in the ff's eyes. Wasn't there talk about "gutloading" or further enhancing the flies nutritive value by additions to the medium? Didn't someone say it couldn't be done?
I think Ed presented some publications that claimed that carotenoids were not stored by the flies...... but this seems to contradict this...... or some kind of "X" factor at least is involved, meaning the flys are converting the carotenoids into "something else" that has benefits......
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:21 PM
ecichlid's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Palatine, IL
Posts: 808
Thanks: 72
Thanked 59 Times in 53 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Repashy View Post
My interpretation is that when we consider the fact that the frogs should have been receiving more than ample Preformed Vitamin A (Retinol) from Calcium Plus AND a topical treatment, that the carotenoids are contributing other nutrients.

Meaning no amount of Retinol supplement can replace the carotenoids because they are contributing different things. We should consider carotenoids as their own group of "vitamins" that can't be replaced by anything else. These compounds are really just starting to be studied and understood.

After reading this, I have definitely changed my thoughts about the value of including significant amounts of carotenoids in the fly media. Superfly has SuperPig in it, but in low levels for two reasons. First, I was under the impression that it wasn't as important as this paper claims, and secondly, Superfly is already one of the most expensive fly medias on the market and adding a lot of superpig would just make most people think it was too expensive to even try.

If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so) The other option of course is to dust more with carotenoids, but I am not so sure that would be the best approach because you would be "cutting" the other nutrients you are dusting with. I also think it is easier to load the media than dust with carotenoids because of the particle size issues and actual stick to drosophila of these ingredients.

Allen
Thank you Allen! I will be purchasing SuperPig today. Your clarification opens up two more questions.

1) If one owns SuperFly media, how much SuperPig should be added to the media to make an ideal media (SuperFly+) in regards to carotenoids?

2) If one owns fly media with out any supplements, how much SuperPig should be added to the media to make an ideal media in regards to carotenoids?
__________________
Everyone is welcome! Chicagoland Froggers
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 05:40 PM
JPccusa's Avatar
Mod
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 2,752
Thanks: 224
Thanked 241 Times in 154 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Answer 1 is here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Repashy View Post
... I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so)
__________________
JP
Moderator
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 06:06 PM
hypostatic's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 2,437
Thanks: 122
Thanked 222 Times in 197 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

No offense to Allen, but I've been having the suspicion that the Repashy line has been deficient in vitamin A or carotenoids (or both?) for some time. (As far as the formulation relates to dart frogs)

This suspicion first arose when I noticed that people on the boards would often supplement Vitamin A Plus in addition to Calcium Plus, in order to get better breeding/eggs/tadpoles. Also, I've read that some people report that even though they've been dusting their frogs' food with Repashy Calcium Plus, some people's frogs still get short tongue syndrome, which is indicative of vitamin A deficiency.

The paper states that the primary diet of pumilio (and I think this also holds true for other dart frogs) is ants and mites -- and that these are a "carotenoid‐rich food source" (and here is the cited literature for that claim). Although while looking through the paper, the table that compares carotenoid content wasn't super clear on the claim that drosophila contains significantly less carotenoids than either ants or mites. Maybe someone else could take a look at the paper?

Anyway, my point is that I feel that the Repashy line would be much more complete for dart frogs if the vitamin A and/or carotenoid was increased.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 06:20 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 3,997
Thanks: 49
Thanked 49 Times in 42 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

I don't think the paper deals w/ vit. A or the conversion of carotenoids to vit. A. It just says that more carotenoids has an added benefit.

As far as I've seen I've never used a Vit. A supplement and have had a very hi success rate and very hi egg production rate have not had short tongue syndrome or spindly or other deformations at any significant rate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
No offense to Allen, but I've been having the suspicion that the Repashy line has been deficient in vitamin A or carotenoids (or both?) for some time. (As far as the formulation relates to dart frogs)

This suspicion first arose when I noticed that people on the boards would often supplement Vitamin A Plus in addition to Calcium Plus, in order to get better breeding/eggs/tadpoles. Also, I've read that some people report that even though they've been dusting their frogs' food with Repashy Calcium Plus, some people's frogs still get short tongue syndrome, which is indicative of vitamin A deficiency.

The paper states that the primary diet of pumilio (and I think this also holds true for other dart frogs) is ants and mites -- and that these are a "carotenoid‐rich food source" (and here is the cited literature for that claim). Although while looking through the paper, the table that compares carotenoid content wasn't super clear on the claim that drosophila contains significantly less carotenoids than either ants or mites. Maybe someone else could take a look at the paper?

Anyway, my point is that I feel that the Repashy line would be much more complete for dart frogs if the vitamin A and/or carotenoid was increased.

Last edited by Roadrunner; 10-25-2013 at 06:22 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 06:32 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
No offense to Allen, but I've been having the suspicion that the Repashy line has been deficient in vitamin A or carotenoids (or both?) for some time. (As far as the formulation relates to dart frogs)

This suspicion first arose when I noticed that people on the boards would often supplement Vitamin A Plus in addition to Calcium Plus, in order to get better breeding/eggs/tadpoles. Also, I've read that some people report that even though they've been dusting their frogs' food with Repashy Calcium Plus, some people's frogs still get short tongue syndrome, which is indicative of vitamin A deficiency.

The paper states that the primary diet of pumilio (and I think this also holds true for other dart frogs) is ants and mites -- and that these are a "carotenoid‐rich food source" (and here is the cited literature for that claim). Although while looking through the paper, the table that compares carotenoid content wasn't super clear on the claim that drosophila contains significantly less carotenoids than either ants or mites. Maybe someone else could take a look at the paper?

Anyway, my point is that I feel that the Repashy line would be much more complete for dart frogs if the vitamin A and/or carotenoid was increased.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I have moderate levels of vitamin A in the Calcium Plus, I already have a Calcium Plus HyD that has twice the levels of vitamin A as the regular version and one that has half the levels because many people "think" the regular calcium plus has too much.

My Calcium Plus HyD is recommended for therapeutic use and use on basking species and true carnivores that are kept with little UVB .... and I do NOT think Dendrobates fall into this category or have this kind of requirement, so I will NOT recommend the Calcium Plus HYD for regular use with Dendrobatids. If you don't agree, then you, of course, are free to use my products however you want, or use other products.


I also make a Vitamin A Plus, which is a vitamin A only product for treating deficiency..... or periodic use with healthy animals. I think you should re read the posts about using Vitamin A Plus or another supplemental Retinol product because they are usually associated with animals that have had a history of deficiency... it that case, Calcium Plus can take quite some time to bring back deficient animals..... thus the additional supplementation.

If you don't agree, then you, of course, are free to use my products however you want, or use other products that you think might work better. Do you really expect STS to completely disappear from every frog in every situation with all the variables out there... from varied usage levels, to using expired products..... to genetics..... to lack of real scientific research with multiple instances of the same cause and effect?



Allen

Last edited by Allen Repashy; 10-25-2013 at 06:36 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 06:52 PM
hypostatic's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 2,437
Thanks: 122
Thanked 222 Times in 197 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Repashy View Post
I think you should re read the posts about using Vitamin A Plus or another supplemental Retinol product because they are usually associated with animals that have had a history of deficiency... it that case, Calcium Plus can take quite some time to bring back deficient animals..... thus the additional supplementation.
Hmmm I guess I wasn't really taking animals with a history of deficiency into account, which would make sense why just calcium plus doesn't correct the problem.

But still, if you think the findings of the paper are important enough to consider adding more carotenoids to the fly media, why not the dusting supplement?
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:04 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 201
Thanks: 79
Thanked 109 Times in 39 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
Hmmm I guess I wasn't really taking animals with a history of deficiency into account, which would make sense why just calcium plus doesn't correct the problem.
Yeah, it is an important factor and I have acknowledged that if an animal is deficient, that it can take many months for Calcium Plus to reverse the issue. But increasing the amount of A in calcium plus is not the answer, because then over the long term, we could have too much. This is the exact reason I decided to pull the trigger and put out the "Vitamin A Plus" as a product....

Quote:
But still, if you think the findings of the paper are important enough to consider adding more carotenoids to the fly media, why not the dusting supplement?
As I said in prior posts...... it is difficult to get a good stick when dusting with carotenoids because of the particle sizes, and if we are dusting with more carotenoids, then we have to be using less Calcium Plus..... there is always a give and take if you are already dusting at every feeding.

Adding it to the media solves this issue and any potential factors that could be involved dealing with the metabolism of the flies creating unique compuounds using the carotenoids that we aren't aware of..... but have value.

All theory really..
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 07:38 PM
hypostatic's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NYC/NJ
Posts: 2,437
Thanks: 122
Thanked 222 Times in 197 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

I'm a bit frustrated that the authors didn't decide to like, grind up the two FF groups and analyze the contents to see what the actual difference inside the flies was. And --as I believe someone else mentioned-- that they didn't also try just adding more carotenoids to the dusting supplement to compare with adding it to the media.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 09:11 PM
frogfreak's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,555
Blog Entries: 1
Thanks: 177
Thanked 187 Times in 159 Posts
Default Re: New Scientific Publication on PDF's and Carotenoids

Quote:
Originally Posted by hypostatic View Post
I'm a bit frustrated that the authors didn't decide to like, grind up the two FF groups and analyze the contents to see what the actual difference inside the flies was. And --as I believe someone else mentioned-- that they didn't also try just adding more carotenoids to the dusting supplement to compare with adding it to the media.
That wasn't the purpose of the study and would take a new experiment to get the results. I'm not sure that would even be possible...

I'm just glad they did this study. It's not everyday we get this kind of info! It's groundbreaking really, don't you think?

Glass half empty kinda guy?
Allen Repashy and WVFrogman like this.
__________________
Glenn
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to frogfreak For This Useful Post:
Allen Repashy (10-25-2013)
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2013, 09:26 PM
Azurel's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 2,656
Thanks: 554
Thanked 154 Times in 138 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Allen Repashy View Post
My interpretation is that when we consider the fact that the frogs should have been receiving more than ample Preformed Vitamin A (Retinol) from Calcium Plus AND a topical treatment, that the carotenoids are contributing other nutrients.

Meaning no amount of Retinol supplement can replace the carotenoids because they are contributing different things. We should consider carotenoids as their own group of "vitamins" that can't be replaced by anything else. These compounds are really just starting to be studied and understood.

After reading this, I have definitely changed my thoughts about the value of including significant amounts of carotenoids in the fly media. Superfly has SuperPig in it, but in low levels for two reasons. First, I was under the impression that it wasn't as important as this paper claims, and secondly, Superfly is already one of the most expensive fly medias on the market and adding a lot of superpig would just make most people think it was too expensive to even try.

If there was enough demand, I could make a Superfly + version, but I don't think it is that difficult to just add 5% superpig to the superfly for those who decide to follow this lead.. (it does seem to make a good argument for doing so) The other option of course is to dust more with carotenoids, but I am not so sure that would be the best approach because you would be "cutting" the other nutrients you are dusting with. I also think it is easier to load the media than dust with carotenoids because of the particle size issues and actual stick to drosophila of these ingredients.

Allen
With the price of a 4oz bag of Superpig I don't think it would be to expensive to just get a second for the media....Based on the reading and posts here I will start adding it to my superfly.....Not to mention I hate throwing out amounts of suppliments seems a good way to make sure it all gets used up before the 6th month mark.

sent from my Galaxy S lll
__________________
R. imitator,R.variabilis,R.Flavovittata,R.Lamasi 'orange' Fant'Lowland' 0.0.3
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
carotenoids, dart frogs study, methylparaben, repashy, superfly, superpig

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
scientific name for mite? winyfrog Identification Forum 2 08-02-2012 06:32 PM
Interesting publication on Pigments in Reptiles and Amphibians Allen Repashy Food & Feeding 2 02-01-2011 05:32 AM
need brochure designed for print publication bellerophon The Lounge 1 01-11-2008 12:53 AM
Help looking for Scientific Publications Khamul Science & Conservation 9 02-09-2007 04:19 PM

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.