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Old 09-15-2016, 05:11 PM
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Default Dusting with plankton

Hey guys, thought I'd share here because it made the biggest impact with my e. anthonyi than my other species but I recently started adding about 20% "reef roids" powder to my vitamin dust before dusting my feeders and wow!! Color and girth both went nuts. The reds more than anything, went from honestly somewhat lackluster to extraordinarily vivid! It's just a freeze dried mix of phytoplankton, zooplankton, and such in a very fine powder. I always noted improvement in reef tanks I used it on and I know single celled algaes are packed with nutrients so I figured what the hell. So glad I did, I can't believe how quickly it made an impact.
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Old 11-07-2016, 11:52 PM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

Since its intended for corals - how do you know what the long-term effects upon amphibians are?
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Old 11-08-2016, 03:57 PM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

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Originally Posted by Alan View Post
Since its intended for corals - how do you know what the long-term effects upon amphibians are?
The intensification of the red pigment is due to the ingredients containing astaxanthin and canthaxanthin both of which are used for red pigment by many frogs and astaxanthin could be one of the pre-cursors for vitamin A in frogs.

Again most of those effects are because it has a variety of carotenoids in the supplement but there are other supplements like the Repashy products that do a similar thing.

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Old 11-08-2016, 09:20 PM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

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The intensification of the red pigment is due to the ingredients containing astaxanthin and canthaxanthin both of which are used for red pigment by many frogs and astaxanthin could be one of the pre-cursors for vitamin A in frogs.

Again most of those effects are because it has a variety of carotenoids in the supplement but there are other supplements like the Repashy products that do a similar thing.

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The pigments themselves give me less pause - than the bulk of the powder which can contain far more elements than the specific pigments which often exist as a small percentage by weight. While these may be a non-issue in a reef tank as filter feeders make use of a highly-diluted (and system filtered) water - as a food dust for frogs - its consumed in far greater concentration by vertebrates - not the inverts in a reef tank.
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Old 11-09-2016, 04:16 AM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

The main if not all of the ingredients in that food is shrimp meal and a crustacean of some form. These are not significantly different in nutrient content than many other invertebrates that contain chitin. As for the carotenoids, they are important for many other systems than just pigmentation and this can play a significant role in growth and immune function.

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Old 11-09-2016, 04:25 AM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

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The main if not all of the ingredients in that food is shrimp meal and a crustacean of some form. These are not significantly different in nutrient content than many other invertebrates that contain chitin. As for the carotenoids, they are important for many other systems than just pigmentation and this can play a significant role in growth and immune function.



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Do you think that the other ingredients such as plankton or whatever else is in there would have negative effects?


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Old 11-09-2016, 04:29 AM
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Do you think that the other ingredients such as plankton or whatever else is in there would have negative effects?
As I mentioned before the main ingredients are some crustacean probably a mysid shrimp and shrimp meal and these are similar enough to other chitin containing invertebrates in their diet that I wouldn't worry about the addition (but I have to note that it isn't necessary if you just add the carotenoids to your supplements or use one that has them already in it).

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Old 11-09-2016, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed View Post
The main if not all of the ingredients in that food is shrimp meal and a crustacean of some form. These are not significantly different in nutrient content than many other invertebrates that contain chitin. As for the carotenoids, they are important for many other systems than just pigmentation and this can play a significant role in growth and immune function.

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I was unable to find a product contents label or declaration - so I was unable to reach that conclusion based on any specific information.
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Old 11-09-2016, 10:37 PM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

The correct phrase to pay attention to is zooplankton and the following analysis

Crude Protein 60% min, Crude Lipid 20% min, Ash 6% max, Crude Fiber 8% max, Moisture 6% max, Astaxanthin 150-200 ppm.

This is inline with many small crustaceans and things like mysid shrimp

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Old 11-09-2016, 11:55 PM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

Not sure about the potential use of this as a supplement, however i can attest that paprika and repashy superpig greatly aid in the coloration of many darts especially my E. anthonyi Santa Isabellas. I would be interested in seeing the results.
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Old 11-10-2016, 08:23 PM
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Not sure about the potential use of this as a supplement, however i can attest that paprika and repashy superpig greatly aid in the coloration of many darts especially my E. anthonyi Santa Isabellas. I would be interested in seeing the results.
Paprika isn't the best source of carotenoids for pigmentation and other metabolic needs as the primary carotenoid in it is beta carotene and carotenoids do compete for uptake much like the fat soluble vitamins do as the carotenoids have to be contained as part of a fat micelle to be absorbed. Additionally the two red pigments in paprika are polar and this reduces their uptake. When analysis of amphibians for carotenoids were performed the red carotenoid portion of the amphibian were made up of astaxanthin and canthaxanthin and these are important in many arthropods which can convert beta carotene or other carotenoids to astaxanthin. The reason the coloration improved in the OP's post is due to the high astaxanthin content in the supplement but this is easy to correct as you can just add additional astaxanthin to your supplements (which is what I do for frogs). The Repashy products contain the six most common carotenoids that are found in amphibians to date, which was how that selection was made.

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Old 12-26-2016, 08:44 PM
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Actually, we've been assured by the vendor at my shop (reef) that it is entirely single celled ingredients, though they said it was proprietary. But you're right, it is the carotenoid content responsible for color enhancement. However phyto plankton is also the most nutritionally complete single food item on the planet. The one concern I did have was potential salt content from harvesting.. however I have access to some pretty thorough analysis tools at my shop and best I can figure they do an excellent job separating the phyto out of water. Likely via centrifuge. Regardless I have been doing this ever since and my frogs are all stunning. My clutches are enormous, 100% viability, and higher than 90% morph out. Plus I brought 2x p. Bicolor back from SLS with this diet. Believe it or not, I'll dig up photo evidence if I need to, I'm sure I probably took some pictures of the frogs when I got them....
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Old 12-27-2016, 12:50 AM
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However phyto plankton is also the most nutritionally complete single food item on the planet.
Bunk and I repeat again bunk. Phytoplankton is a wide group of organisms including cyanobacteria that are the source of a wide variety of toxins. As a general statement this is as valid a claim as cold fusion in the 1989.

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Plus I brought 2x p. Bicolor back from SLS with this diet. Believe it or not, I'll dig up photo evidence if I need to, I'm sure I probably took some pictures of the frogs when I got them....
More bunk. The deformations that are the symptoms of SLS are permanent as they involve the failure of proper development of the structures of the legs starting in the leg bud stage in the fertilized egg. You cannot cause reconstruction of bone, tendon, nerve, muscle and skins via diet so again bunk.

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Old 12-27-2016, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

when that plankton is taken from the ocean i would expect there to be a lot of plastic mixed in with it since its impossible to separate those 2.
so ultimately you will be feeding plastic to your frogs, i would say anything from the ocean is a no-go for feeding frogs.
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Old 12-27-2016, 11:25 AM
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Why would anyone feed a frog something that is not in its natural diet? I can understand providing supplements but actual food this is different. Just because its an invertebrate doesn't mean its safe. Its like saying because we eat plants that all plants are safe to eat which we all know isn't true.

Again you are making these claims without giving us any proof. No studies, no documentation and no expert opinions. Just your word. There are trials for all things because for every one frog it might save or help it may kill off ten more. All you can state is an observation based on your experience and cannot call this a valid claim without documented facts.
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Old 12-27-2016, 09:18 PM
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Why would anyone feed a frog something that is not in its natural diet? I can understand providing supplements but actual food this is different. .
I see this and similar claims made for a wide variety of animals but this is an inaccurate statement with regard to nutrition. There is a lot of hype in the pet and animal trade over diets particularly by those with little understanding of nutrition.

One of the things people forget is that amino acids are amino acids regardless of where they originate. For example L-alanine is L-alanine regardless if it originated in a steak, or brown rice or even via manufacturing processes. There is no difference in its absorbtion or how it is utilized in the tissues. As long as it provides the required nutrition without toxins or allergic reactions then the source of the required nutrients is pretty much moot.


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Old 12-27-2016, 09:28 PM
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Actually, we've been assured by the vendor at my shop (reef) that it is entirely single celled ingredients,
I should also note that this is also bunk. There are few commercially available sources of astaxanthin that are single celled organisms and neither is planktonic. The first is an algae Haematococcus pluvialis which only contains astaxanthin when it is entering into a resting phase which would not be while it was suspended as it occurs when nutrients are low, excessive lighting, or salinity (it is after all a freshwater algae) and the other is a yeast... Now crustaceans mixed in the phytoplankton contain astaxanthin but these of course are not single celled. So I would suggest relying a whole lot less on the BS your vendor is telling you and looking at the data (plus the nutritional content does not match either the algae or the yeast).

Now that is before we consider that the majority of astaxathin used in feeds is produced synthetically and this is the most cost effective source for use in feeds ....

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Old 12-28-2016, 04:06 AM
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Not to derail too much, but a note about the "crustacean" comments... freeze dried cyclop-eeze was frequently recommended on this forum before super-pig and naturose became ubiquitous. I used to grind it into my calcium powder with a mortar and pestle and feed it to my orange terribilis. It worked really well for them.

The cyclop-eeze was also a key component of probably one of the best tadpole food recipes that ever came out of this forum. (http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/foo...os-recipe.html)
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Old 12-28-2016, 01:16 PM
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One of the things people forget is that amino acids are amino acids regardless of where they originate. For example L-alanine is L-alanine regardless if it originated in a steak, or brown rice or even via manufacturing processes. There is no difference in its absorbtion or how it is utilized in the tissues. As long as it provides the required nutrition without toxins or allergic reactions then the source of the required nutrients is pretty much moot.


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Your statement is true, but if lets say those essential amino acids are mixed with toxic levels of other amino acids. For example a cherry in itself is not poisonous but the leaves and seeds are. In small doses they are safe but in larger doses they are toxic. What I was stating is that although plankton may have beneficial properties you don't know what other types of organisms are mixed with the plankton which in doses over time may accumulate in the frogs system and kill it. Are you willing to risk the lives of your frogs feeding them something totally alien to their diets?
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Old 12-31-2016, 12:22 AM
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Your statement is true, but if lets say those essential amino acids are mixed with toxic levels of other amino acids. For example a cherry in itself is not poisonous but the leaves and seeds are. In small doses they are safe but in larger doses they are toxic. What I was stating is that although plankton may have beneficial properties you don't know what other types of organisms are mixed with the plankton which in doses over time may accumulate in the frogs system and kill it. Are you willing to risk the lives of your frogs feeding them something totally alien to their diets?
Your still using a faulty position in your argument, everything you feed the frogs in your collection is alien to their diet. Bean beetles, D. melanogaster (although this has been introduced globally from sub-Saharan Africa), the springtails in culture, most of the isopods, all are alien to their diet. if you are going to stick to your argument your not really able to feed your frogs pretty much anything that is used for them.
If we are to expand that as a risk management position, phytoplankton components tend to be cultured to ensure a stable supply. That is pretty much the source of natural produced astaxanthin while the majority source is synthetic.

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Old 12-31-2016, 01:02 PM
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Your still using a faulty position in your argument, everything you feed the frogs in your collection is alien to their diet. Bean beetles, D. melanogaster (although this has been introduced globally from sub-Saharan Africa), the springtails in culture, most of the isopods, all are alien to their diet. if you are going to stick to your argument your not really able to feed your frogs pretty much anything that is used for them.
If we are to expand that as a risk management position, phytoplankton components tend to be cultured to ensure a stable supply. That is pretty much the source of natural produced astaxanthin while the majority source is synthetic.

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Again you miss my point. A beetle is a beetle is a beetle, same with isopods and springtails which are both located world wide so Darts would see both springtails and isopods in their native lands. I guess my point is better put across like this. Plankton is not a staple in a frogs diet. I have never saw a dart frog sitting on a beach picking plankton off of it. Yes there may be essential supplements BUT what about the residual salt that is left behind. Remember water evaporates and salt does not. Back when I was feeding my salts krill (plankton) I actually tried a small piece. What did I get? I got a taste like someone had shaken a salt shaker on my tongue.

Since salt has been proven to have an adverse affect of frogs, (How do I know this?) My state has limited the use of road salt because it was killing native frog species and these species included bullfrogs, 100 of time larger than our darts. We use RO and Distilled water to eliminate metals and dissolved salts and you want to feed it directly to your frogs.

Again if you feel safe feeding your frogs a animal that they would never encounter in the wild that is your choice. I will stick to my frog formatted supplements
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Old 01-03-2017, 06:31 PM
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Default Re: Dusting with plankton

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Again you miss my point. A beetle is a beetle is a beetle, same with isopods and springtails which are both located world wide so Darts would see both springtails and isopods in their native lands. I guess my point is better put across like this. Plankton is not a staple in a frogs diet.
Actually a beetle is not a beetle is not a beetle. There is a huge difference in chitin content and diet that significantly changes nutritional profiles. To go to the other side, an arthropod is an arthropod and a crustacean is a crustacean. I have not missed your argument at all. I'm simply pointing out that it is a very flawed argument.

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I have never saw a dart frog sitting on a beach picking plankton off of it.
You do realize that plankton is not restricted to large bodies of water much less marine environments. For example there are robust studies on plankton contents of bromeliad tanks and puddles both of which are well within the range of dendrobatids.


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Yes there may be essential supplements BUT what about the residual salt that is left behind. Remember water evaporates and salt does not. Back when I was feeding my salts krill (plankton) I actually tried a small piece. What did I get? I got a taste like someone had shaken a salt shaker on my tongue.
The correct response to this is so what. Your premise here requires that
1) the material being used must be marine.
2) that is has to have been not rinsed before processing.

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Since salt has been proven to have an adverse affect of frogs, (How do I know this?) My state has limited the use of road salt because it was killing native frog species and these species included bullfrogs, 100 of time larger than our darts.
I think you really do not understand the science behind all of this... for one, there is a significant difference between quantity into the environment with road salt administration and that in the diet. Pretty much all of the road salt issues with frogs are with embryonic and larval stages so your claim about size at point of issue is suspect. Second, your assuming that frogs do not have taste receptors for salt... they do.

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We use RO and Distilled water to eliminate metals and dissolved salts and you want to feed it directly to your frogs.
Dude really? We use RO/DI water to keep the misting heads from clogging and to reduce mineral deposits on the glass. You can use straight tap water on your enclosures if you want unless you have really crazy water parameters.

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Again if you feel safe feeding your frogs a animal that they would never encounter in the wild that is your choice. I will stick to my frog formatted supplements
Again, this is a false premise and it is based on data that clearly needs a much better review.

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