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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-24-2008, 01:31 PM
 
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Default Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

It has been suggested to me by a couple froggers in the last couple days that there should be a sticky about the preperation for sending fecals to be examined. I think this would be a huge benefit to the hobby and a great idea. Maybe one of the mods with a science/medical background could work this up for people sending fecals to anyvet, clinic, lab , or whatever.
Thoughts?

Rich
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:39 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

It's a consideration.

In the meantime, I think anyone sending fecals needs to prearrange with whomever they are sending to, and get their preferred techniques before shipping.

More often then not, whomever is doing fecals will want a heads up that something is coming.... Their web site should have their preferred shipping/prep technique..one would hope.

S

*added
Also, anyone can prepare a care sheet on any subject for DB Mod consideration. Just join the care sheet creation team and start typing. Authorship is noted if/once the care sheet is posted.
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Last edited by sports_doc; 10-24-2008 at 01:43 PM. Reason: added
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Old 10-24-2008, 01:47 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Yes , many want a heads up , and in this busy day and age it is not always a simple thing to get people to work on websites.
A nice sticky would at the very least draw attention to the fact that fecals can be and are preformed. Testing and information, no down-side. Big big up-side.

Rich

Last edited by Rich Frye; 10-24-2008 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 10-24-2008, 02:10 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I definately think a sticky would be great. Not too long ago I read about getting fecals done on my frogs. I worked at a veterinary hospital for a time and remembered getting many fecal samples on dogs and cats...imagine my thoughts when I read I needed to get fecals done on my frogs. I broke out into a sweat thinking OMG!!! I don't even see anywhere big enough to get a fecal stick inserted. I searched for days and called many local vets (and got quite a few laughs from the receptionists when I asked if they did fecals on frogs) trying to find out how to do this. Even after reading this forum. Finally someone on this forum gave me a call to explain it because I was lost.

One more suggestion..I realize this may sound crazy but noting what the poop looks like is a huge help. I had no idea what was poop and what was a "soil" pile(this was before I saw the frogs do their business for the first time) . I sent in 4 piles and just hoped some were poop.

Candy
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:11 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye View Post
....and in this busy day and age it is not always a simple thing to get people to work on websites....
Rich
perhaps, but someone will have to take the time to construct an agreed upon fecal protocol for a DB sticky....so

Since you are interested , I'm giving you my blessing...

I look forward to reviewing your draft!
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Old 10-24-2008, 07:39 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

It's being worked on as we speak. But by someone with a bit more medical knowledge than I.
And it is a good point that we should have fecal info on the site. I guess my brother does not mind sending out his standard chain letter for those in need of the info for his proceedure. As soon as I get in my new frogs the site is going to be updated a bit and that info will be added.


Rich
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:19 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Here is what my brother came up with. Please use it if it is up to care sheet standards.


Collecting feces for a dart frog fecal exam should be fairly simple to accomplish. First you have to recognize what frog poop looks like. Some are nice semi-firm tiny sausage shaped masses (this is ideal.) They can range in color from red to brown to black. Dark brown is ideal. Some frogs pass very loose stool that may be watery. Fecal material that is repeatedly misted will obviously begin to soften and run.



When collecting a sample for testing, you should try to collect about 3 of the freshest looking feces in each vivarium that you want tested. If the vivarium has one frog or 5 frogs, it doesn’t really mater. Just collect 3-5 fresh looking “turds.” Frogs housed together will eventually carry the same parasites. If you just mixed a bunch of frogs together from different sources, be certain to test again at a later date – after all the frogs have had enough time to contract the various parasites that they may have been exposed to. It can take up to 2 months for certain parasites to show up in feces, but most appear with 4-6 weeks after exposure (remember that I am just speaking of dart frogs here.)



To collect the feces, I recommend using a clean plastic spoon or knife. Try to pick the “turd” off of a leaf or paper towel or rock or whatever without getting too much of any other debris. Place three or so feces from each tank into a SMALL, AIRTIGHT container. Film canisters work great as do tiny zip-lock type baggies. A small amount (1 inch square) of moist paper towel should be added to the container to keep the feces from drying out.



Once you have your specimens collected and contained, label the individual containers, and ship them out ASAP to the vet running the fecals. Ideally you should ship next-day delivery. I find that 2nd day gives decent results as well, but anything longer than that is much more difficult to diagnose species of worms.



Thank you,

David M. Frye, DVM

Milan Area Animal Hospital

517 West Main St

Milan, MI 48160

734-439-2273
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:50 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I haven't been to your web site in a long time, but that would be some excellent information to include there as well. Who knows, it might already be there.

Just a thought.
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Old 10-24-2008, 10:00 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Duh....missed that part. Definitely good into to add. Sorry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye View Post
It's being worked on as we speak. But by someone with a bit more medical knowledge than I.
And it is a good point that we should have fecal info on the site. I guess my brother does not mind sending out his standard chain letter for those in need of the info for his proceedure. As soon as I get in my new frogs the site is going to be updated a bit and that info will be added.


Rich
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Old 10-25-2008, 01:13 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Im open to the idea of fecal collection procedures care sheet.

We can get it in the care sheet creation section and build from the start here. Maybe get some pics to go along with it.
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Old 10-25-2008, 03:55 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

What about dropping off a fecal for the Michigan Froggers? I'm close enough that it wouldn't be worth shipping it. Could you post the hours for the clinic please?
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:01 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Actually - that is specific info that you should get from either Rich or the Doctors web site.

This is a generic package it up and ship it thing.

s
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What about dropping off a fecal for the Michigan Froggers? I'm close enough that it wouldn't be worth shipping it. Could you post the hours for the clinic please?
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Old 10-25-2008, 04:12 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I personally find it a bit of a monopoly to have one tester.
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Old 10-25-2008, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Quote:
Originally Posted by evolvstll View Post
I personally find it a bit of a monopoly to have one tester.
The originial post stated making a sticky for general procedures for sending fecals to any veterinarian. Dr. Frye took the time to write up a general procedure for the sticky as requested by his brother who was asked by a moderator to write up a procedure. I am sure any veterinarian with amphibian experience can add their thoughts or experience to the procedure if they are willing to take the time and effort to do so like Dr. Frye was.

Candy

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Old 10-25-2008, 05:08 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Any care sheet we would create would be unbiased and simply on the method of proper collection. This is a very debatable topic and we have no intentions of promoting one side or the other.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:02 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Yes, as stated , my brother's post was as generic and non-vet-specific as humanly possible. And he is not represented at all as the "one tester". But if "evolvstll" has anything factual/beneficial to add to the post, that's fine with us. Or if he happens to have someone who does dart fecals and would take the time to post pertinent info here, good on him also. Otherwise, I find it a bit of a hijack and not at all constructive or nice.
I'm not sure what part of collecting fecal information is "very debatable", but again, if there are other experts out there who wish to add to the information I think it is a good thing.
Again, there is no down-side or debate to testing and gaining information. Or posting info on how to go about this.
Send your fecals to whomever you like. But do fecals in an attempt to gain knowledge about the health of your frogs.

Now, how do we get this care sheet up and running? Any more info we need or can think of?

Rich
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:05 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Quote:
Originally Posted by morselchip View Post
What about dropping off a fecal for the Michigan Froggers? I'm close enough that it wouldn't be worth shipping it. Could you post the hours for the clinic please?
I'm not really sure what this means. My brother does not atttend many of the MI meetings, as his clinic is open on most of the meeting dates.
Clinic hours can be found by calling 734 439 CARE. At times they change.

Rich
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

My only point that a care sheet on fecal collection need not dig into the debatable topic of when or when not to test. No more no less.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:34 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

From the
ASN Quarantine and Medical Protocals " sticky.

"stewards are encouraged to seek the advice of a veterinarian qualified in amphibian medicine if any of their animals display symptoms of illness or disease. Stewards should also consider performing routine screening through fecal exams to establish a baseline and provide early detection of diseases warranting treatment."

I agree with this statement, fully.


Rich
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:46 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

So my point would be that if someone wanted to know the lifecycle of certain parasites and therefore know when it is appropriate (AKA, getting into a "routine screening" practise as stated by the ASN sticky) to test, the scientific information is out there. And not being able to post that info would be a bad thing. It may need not be included in a simple "how to collect poop" sticky, but the factual info should be made available.

Rich
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Old 10-27-2008, 11:29 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I think you are reading way too far into my statements. I'm not hindering any type of discussion. Yet simply saying a care sheet should be unbiased as treatment and actions of prevention are debatable.

ASN Quarantine and Medical Protocals maybe very suitable for those participating in ASN but we have a broader audience than that. Including such requirements may be fitting for anyone interested in some recomended practices.

Have to see where the care sheets creations goes as this is a community drive product so it will depend on the members willing to contribute.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:18 AM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

"Any care sheet we would create would be unbiased and simply on the method of proper collection. This is a very debatable topic and we have no intentions of promoting one side or the other.

My only point that a care sheet on fecal collection need not dig into the debatable topic of when or when not to test. No more no less.

Yet simply saying a care sheet should be unbiased as treatment and actions of prevention are debatable."


I'm having trouble understanding exactly what your point is Kyle.
In your first statement I may have guessed incorrectly that "this" "debatable topic" was the "proper method of collection". Your next post states that there is no need to "dig into the dabatable topic of when or when not to test." That had not come up until you brought it up. You next further the stretch away from simply a poop collection sticky by bringing up prevention and treatemnt. Which also were never brought up.


"Have to see where the care sheets creations goes as this is a community drive product so it will depend on the members willing to contribute."


I'm not sure what you mean by this Kyle. So, how do we get back on track with what info would be needed for a simple "Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination" ? Was there any hint of any topics you want not in the "poop sticky" by my brother's post? What added info would you like to see. And what , if any, info removed from his post?


Rich

Last edited by Rich Frye; 10-28-2008 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 10-28-2008, 12:57 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I'm not sure why your so defensive, but basically I am just suggesting that we keep some of the deabtable topics out of a care sheet. I'm also not saying you were implying otherwise.

Collection procedures no more no less...

We've moved away from the tons of "stickies" some time ago with the creation of the care sheet section. As suggested we have a care sheet creation group you are welcome to join and contribute to. ( you can do this in the user CP under group memberships) I think this is a good idea for a care sheet and while care sheet creation has been slow lately we should be able to get some focus on this one.
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:12 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/car...tml#post298298

here.

needs someone to search for a couple of links to add. the ASN link as well. I'm on my slow internet at home otherwise I would have done it......

S
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:22 AM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Cool, now that we are again on the same page, how do I sign up?


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Old 10-28-2008, 01:27 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I had it in the last post, but here it is again...

Quote:
( you can do this in the user CP under group memberships)
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

oh yeah, I forgot...you cant

Look under your user CP Rich [and anyone else looking to help], I think there is a link with group memberships? sends a request to Kyle for permission to enter/join.

I think...as mine carried over from the last site.

S
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Old 10-28-2008, 01:34 AM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Got it . Thanks guys.

I've been dealing with the sudden death of a family friend , so I can't say I'll be able to get any other info or pics soon.
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:39 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I don't feel qualified to join the care sheet team.

However, if I can make a suggestion? One of the questions that comes to mind as a person who has never done a fecal on a frog is:

Where are the most optimal places to collect fecal samples out of the tank? If in quarantine on a papertowel I would see this as pretty obvious as the instructions say to put on paper towel however, if in an established tank for preventative maintenance I would guess the glass or a plant leaf but then I think of the more terrestrial frogs and do they leave anything anywhere other than the substrate?

Sorry newbie question but after all the care sheets are for newbies

EDIT: I'm also assuming fresh fecals are best in a well established tank without taking pictures and noting all the fecals already there is there a way to tell what's fresh?

EDIT #2: I'd like to make it clear these are suggestions for informatin for the care sheet answering here not neccessary I'll be happy to read it when it is finished.
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Old 10-28-2008, 02:56 AM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Quote:
Originally Posted by dwdragon View Post
I don't feel qualified to join the care sheet team.

However, if I can make a suggestion? One of the questions that comes to mind as a person who has never done a fecal on a frog is:

Where are the most optimal places to collect fecal samples out of the tank? If in quarantine on a papertowel I would see this as pretty obvious as the instructions say to put on paper towel however, if in an established tank for preventative maintenance I would guess the glass or a plant leaf but then I think of the more terrestrial frogs and do they leave anything anywhere other than the substrate?

Sorry newbie question but after all the care sheets are for newbies

EDIT: I'm also assuming fresh fecals are best in a well established tank without taking pictures and noting all the fecals already there is there a way to tell what's fresh?

EDIT #2: I'd like to make it clear these are suggestions for informatin for the care sheet answering here not neccessary I'll be happy to read it when it is finished.
The easiest way would be to capture a frog, place it in a Q-tub with paper and before long you will have a few fresh samples. Good questions.

Rich
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:24 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

One other thing. My brother is not going to take a bunch of pics of critters, their eggs, false positives/commonly misdiagnosed things thought to be trouble, OK protozoa, bad protozoa , ect. ect. and give the months long schooling it would take med students to properly and consistently ID each and every parasite known to inhabit darts. Just not feasible. This is why he runs fecals for people , at a very low rate. Maybe these were not the type of pics thought of when pics were mentioned, but it has come up before. There is a reason that very few vets do dart fecals with any kind of consistent quality results.
If someone wants to take pics of different poop or collecting it, just about anyone with a camera can do this and forward it to the mods. This caresheet is about poop collection. Not a lot of pics really needed.

Rich
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:30 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Maybe a few pics of the nasties living in people's frogs would get more people to run fecals. Not looking for anything specific, but maybe some worst case examples.
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Maybe a few pics of the nasties living in people's frogs would get more people to run fecals. Not looking for anything specific, but maybe some worst case examples.
personally i think that is a great idea rich as mentioned by jason. kristy
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Old 10-28-2008, 06:41 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Well, unfortunately , as Kyle has mentioned, it is actually somewhat debateable (what isn't debateable?) what exactly is bad for darts. Some think that since coccidia has not yet killed their frogs, or that because there are hundreds, if not thousands of types of this protozoa, that it is not worth treating. Or even testing for. Not broke yet , right? Some don't think treating worms is necessary. And there are those still hoping to find the all elusive "beneficial parasite" .So my point is that if we are truly sticking to a poop collection caresheet, those pics do not conform to what we have all agreed upon.

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Old 10-28-2008, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

At most the Caresheet pics needed would be:

1. fecal matter example
2. collection of said matter, with spoon.
3. plastic bag/moist towel square ready for shipping.
4. small shipping box

the rest isnt appropriate for this topic
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Old 10-28-2008, 07:24 PM
 
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Quote:
Originally Posted by sports_doc View Post
At most the Caresheet pics needed would be:

1. fecal matter example
2. collection of said matter, with spoon.
3. plastic bag/moist towel square ready for shipping.
4. small shipping box

the rest isnt appropriate for this topic

I'd agree with #1 , but I feel we can all envision what #'s 2, 3, and 4 are all about...
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Old 10-28-2008, 10:55 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

The key is its not to say this can not spawn 2-3 care sheets, but the topic at hand is simply collection. I agree posting microscope pictures is not needed for this sheet.

Pictures I would think needed:
- Examples of how to collect
- Examples of how to pack\ship
- Examples of how a sample
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Old 10-28-2008, 11:25 PM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

I think it would be great to see a step by step process in pictures of collecting fecals. to packaging them. For instance.

Picture one-Pic of quarantine enclosure

Picture two-Frog poop in quarantine enclosure

Picture Three-Film can and how to prepare poop for shipping in film can.

Just a few pictures to give the more visual people a better idea.

just my 2 cents.
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:37 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

Quote:
Originally Posted by crb_22601 View Post
I think it would be great to see a step by step process in pictures of collecting fecals. to packaging them. For instance.

Picture one-Pic of quarantine enclosure

Picture two-Frog poop in quarantine enclosure

Picture Three-Film can and how to prepare poop for shipping in film can.

Just a few pictures to give the more visual people a better idea.

just my 2 cents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David M. Frye, DVM
When collecting a sample for testing, you should try to collect about 3 of the freshest looking feces in each vivarium that you want tested. If the vivarium has one frog or 5 frogs, it doesn’t really mater. Just collect 3-5 fresh looking “turds.” Frogs housed together will eventually carry the same parasites.
According to Dr. Frye, there doesn't seem to be a need for quarantine set-ups when collecting fecals. He suggests a more simple approach.

In my opinion, this is the most important visual information for those who wish to collect and ship feces:
- Examples of how to collect
- Examples of how to pack\ship
- Examples of a sample before/during packing

The quarantine enclosure example would just complicate a simple process, unless fresh 'poo poo' cannot be located. Perhaps quarantine containers for challenging feces collection would make a good care sheet for the series.

Personally, I think this is info best distributed by those receiving the fecal material.

Mike
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Old 10-29-2008, 01:52 AM
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Default Re: Sticky for Sending Fecals for Examination

In my opinion, and so we are clear I am by no means a vet, in most frog tanks it would be rather difficult to tell what was fresh or not. Therefore the method which was also from Dr. Frye would seem to make it more certain that one would obtain a "fresh" sample.
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