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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-16-2008, 12:35 AM
 
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Default Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I can see zero downside to making a GIANT, BOLD, HUGE, sticky pertaining to mixing , seeing how about a half dozen people a week seem to start new threads asking about it.
Maybe someone could make links to , oh say, the last five or six hundred new threads, (old ,old subject), that have been posted? In case people have missed the last three weeks worth of posts . And make it sooo noticeable that it would basically smack the person tempted to start yet another mixing thread in the face before cluttering up this site any more? It has gotten WAY beyond craziness. Maybe a buzzer or bells and whistles as soon as "mixing" is typed in the title with one of those Hawking voices saying "IF YOU ARE ASKING IF TWO OR MORE SPECIES OR SUB-SPECIES CAN GO TOGETHER, BE MIXED, OR CO-HABITATE, PLEASE READ ONE OR MORE OF THE FIFTEEN THOUSAND ARCHIVED POSTS PERTAINING TO THIS SUBJECT MATTER."
I tried to figure out a shock therapy type system so the keyboard sends a nice jolt across, but the Hawking thing seems more doable.
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Old 09-16-2008, 12:37 AM
 
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Default re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

It should be obvious the title should read "mixing", not miving. Not sure how to edit the title.

Rich
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:24 AM
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Default re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

yea that would be nice but everyone wants to believe that they are the exception that they magically can do what so many others have tried and failed at. truthfully rich i would have to guess the only ones who are argumentative and need to be told REPEATEDLY are young people with the rebellious attitude. and trust me there is nothing you, I, or anyone else for that matter can do to prevent them from mixing because by the time they have created a post the have already made up their minds. and yes it is frustrating, and literally every 2nd or 3rd post in the beginner forum has something to do with mixing.

but i agree that it may be helpful and I too cannot see a downside but don't be surprised when it either doesn't affect the # of posts pertaining to this, or it makes people decide to mix without talking to a member who can explain the risks in more detail than someone quickly skimming the sticky.

that's my 2 cents

james
 
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Old 09-16-2008, 01:45 AM
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Default re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

We could have a giant, 5 page info sheet, with a quiz on reading comprehension and subject matter as a requirement for site registration, and the same old questions would come up over and over again. Nothing, short of an act of god, is going to change the behavior of newbies.
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:04 AM
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Default re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Hahaha, I love your idea about shock therapy Rich! Your idea sounds like a great one though. I don't even bother reading the posts about mixing anymore because they just leave me with a sour taste in my mouth.
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:20 AM
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Talking re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

LMAO poor Rich.... I understand completely how many times can we go over the same subject before enough is enough or the more experienced members just stop visiting all together? We should devise a trip wire shock system .
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:31 AM
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Default re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Rich your so harsh and I love it!! I to am very tired of hearing about how they are the ones that are going to be able to make it work. They post and then always seem to ignore everything that is said by an experienced breeder. They always have a solution for the many problems they are told about. So why do they even post!
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:39 AM
 
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Default re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

The main reason for my post was to point out the absolute refusal to even look a post or two down the threads that have already been hammered and hammered on . Count the number of "mix" post in the beginner area. I think I counted at least three out of the first nine . Four out of nine , if you count mine!
Those that post stating (mind already made up) they are going to mix is another matter, but also a clutter.

Rich
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Old 09-16-2008, 02:40 AM
 
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Default re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catfur View Post
We could have a giant, 5 page info sheet, with a quiz on reading comprehension and subject matter as a requirement for site registration, and the same old questions would come up over and over again. Nothing, short of an act of god, is going to change the behavior of newbies.
Shock therapy it is then...
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:46 PM
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Cool Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Good suggestion Rich! re: the STICKY or similar.....[notice I am being encouraging ]

Let me be the first to offer you a job

Click on your user CP, then Group Memberships, and join the Care Sheet Creation Group....it's Free even

There is a general format to follow, and I would be glad to help edit the final version [as would the other Care Sheet members I'm sure, lots of help usually follows one's initial work].

I agree it is a topic that deserves a Care Sheet, with links to old debates, and even some testimonials from those that ventured into a mixed species experiment such as yourself [both sides can even be represented].

Personally I dont recommend mixing [nor have I tried it..., so my opinion is just that, an opinion not based on experience mind you]...but as said by many already...there are those that will do whatever they want, regardless....we might as well help them to NOT fail at least.

-------------------- [now to the rest of the community]

Now, on the subject of Newbies...you are all hypocrites...every one of you [not literally everyone of course] we all started this hobby at some point, fresh and naive...and I can distinctly remember myself asking the crowd how to make a ff cx?, and how often to mist?, ect, ect, ect. Never once [in the good old days] did anyone tell me to "try the search feature you idiot". And I would hope we could start to be more tolerant of folks who are new to the hobby, and came here to our beloved DB to learn more and express their enthusiasm...however misguided at first.

Newbies, ect. are what keep the hobby fresh, and growing, and supply business for the community, and new ideas, and yes the enthusiasm that some of us have lost.

Noones nose should go up, we should quit poking fun of people; if you dont like a thread- dont read it, and if you can help someone- do so.

Shawn

[who is now frantically trying to block a loud buzzzzzzz of electrical surge from getting onto his home computer from cyber ECT]
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Last edited by sports_doc; 09-16-2008 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:53 PM
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Smile Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/car...ing-101-a.html

Kyle [or someone else] even started it for us.

S
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Old 09-16-2008, 11:53 PM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I have been thinking about this for a long time!

Maybe if it was undertaken by a team, so the information is as accuarate as possible, but as opinion free as possible too.
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:08 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I think you may have missed my point a bit Shawn. I will be glad to write a ten page post on mixing, but I will not take the time if it is buried in the areas many (only using "many" because of the more than many repeat posts) beginners chronically skip over. So, if the giant bold thing (like a heading three times the normal font size) is a possibility, I'm writing as soon as I get the go, if not , and my work is dumped into the other great , informative ,obviously skipped over care sheet , I'll save my time.
I write my share of posts to try to help out with beginners questions , but there are limits to what we can all take. One thing people do not realize when chronically starting a thread that has been beaten to death is the "experts " will only post on these such threads sooooo many times before dropping out. Then the "newbies" end up with less than expert opinions. Whatever we all consider expert is another matter, but you all get my point.
I've written about reading before posting questions . This thread sums up my beliefs.

http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/beg...re-postin.html

Quality is hurt when we spam, and it is spam at a certain point, our board. It is quality over quantity we should all be striving for.

Rich
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:27 AM
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Smile Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

ahh but a complete and persuasive Care Sheet can be quoted at first sight of a 'Repeat Question' offense....[the DB Yellow Card option]

I think Kyle started the Mixing 101 to get 'something on paper', but it is far from complete and can be improved upon so that it can "stand alone" when cited without need for any further debate, responses, questions or cyber ECT

and I did get one of your points Rich, on making it BOLD and BEAUTIFUL [read= hard to miss] but we cant do that with everything. All the sections would be filled with BOLD stickies that would go unnoticed like the elephant in the living room.

The care sheets can not only be read by the newbie and experienced alike but they should serve as a reference citation for anyone wanting to point someone in the right direction.

Then ....any threads started, can END. Abruptly, by anyone enlighted by their own prior perusial of the care sheets...and willing to point someone towards the light.

We hope.

S
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Old 09-17-2008, 12:51 AM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I am on another extremely well run forum and am a moderator on it, and the same issue exists. Some people just refuse to use the search function due to pure laziness. From my experience age doesnt matter, its more so the outlook the person has. It is rediculous to always see mixing posts though... that is the one thing I really like about poison dart frogs, is that they are just like they are in nature. If you go to ANY reptile show, everything is bred for looks, hypo this, or hypo that... it is just rediculous.

I know I have very few posts here, but that is mainly due to the fact that I do use the search function when I have a question, and if you read back, just about any and every question is answered. I had questions about terribilis and how other people care for them... pages and pages and PAGES of threads. I found out more than I will ever need, but none the less, all the information I needed/wanted was right there waiting for me.

Maybe just have a brief overview of the site when someone joins... five pages to have to click through showing how to use the search function and showing where the area of FAQ is. Some people really just need it pointed out like that from my experiences...
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Old 09-17-2008, 02:35 PM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I would be willing to participate in this. Not for the same reasons as the ones that I believe Rich had in mind when starting this thread (Not assuming Rich's motive, just perception)

I really like this forum, and have gotten some good design ideas here. Still looking for a way to make the thunderstorm sounds that warn you the misters are coming on at the grocery store by the way. For me not the frogs. I think that is cool.

In 1991, while in the Navy, I caught a bunch of Auratus in Hawaii, and kept them in a crude tank. A few years later, I came across a copy of Jewels of the Rainforest. The huge hardback copy. It is falling apart today, but I still have it. In the mid 90's, I met Philip De Vosjoli who was a strange man, but quite fasinating. His tanks were mixed tanks, but he did alot of experimenting. He is the one that turned me on to kitty litter as a substrate in the water areas.
Vosjoli published alot of books and articles on PDFs. Alot of the articles he wrote on vivarium design included a list of species kept in the tanks. Alot of these tanks were mixed as well.

So, people do set up mixed tanks, and are going to set up mixed tanks. This is a reality, like it or not. I am not in favor of hybrids, but I am in favor of healthy frogs.

Some people on here have taken my opinions out of context recently, and I am not encouraging people to set up mixed tanks.

However, like Shawn stated, I believe that it is necessary to provide the information needed to properly design and set up a mixed enclosure so that all of the needs of the frogs are atleast met at a minimum. Telling people no is not going to keep them from setting up the enclosure. Providing them the information will keep them from setting it up wrong and causing unnecessary losses.

As stewards of the frogs in the hobby, it is the responsibility to keep the frogs around for the next generation. Providing the information, like it or not, will help meet that responsibility.

And, as Mywebbedtoes stated, the article should remain opinion free. Except perhaps a bold disclaimer at the beginning " It is the general consenses of the members of DB that species should not be mixed!! However, if you must setup a mixed enclosure, the following are design aspects that MUST be used"

And, it should not be in the beginner's section
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:39 PM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I just read a post drug out from 2 years ago titled "The mixed tank verdict".

82.57% voted that mixing is atleast possible

The numbers above were 199 in favor, and 42 definate NOs.

Of those, 102 voted Sure!

So, I believe that yes, the information on proper design, and husbandry is needed right away.
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Old 09-17-2008, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by sports_doc View Post
Now, on the subject of Newbies...you are all hypocrites...every one of you [not literally everyone of course] we all started this hobby at some point, fresh and naive...and I can distinctly remember myself asking the crowd how to make a ff cx?, and how often to mist?, ect, ect, ect. Never once [in the good old days] did anyone tell me to "try the search feature you idiot". And I would hope we could start to be more tolerant of folks who are new to the hobby, and came here to our beloved DB to learn more and express their enthusiasm...however misguided at first.

Newbies, ect. are what keep the hobby fresh, and growing, and supply business for the community, and new ideas, and yes the enthusiasm that some of us have lost.

Noones nose should go up, we should quit poking fun of people; if you dont like a thread- dont read it, and if you can help someone- do so.
i'm just quoting this and bolding the parts i feel are most important...
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Old 09-17-2008, 10:50 PM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I am truly sorry if out of this whole thread the contribution would be that someone was never called an idiot and that we need to quit poking fun of people.
Very sorry...
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

So I'm starting a mixed tank and waas wondering if.....

Just kinding. I agree with a major sticky or even make it a topic you have to read before you actually become a member. Just a thought. I too noticed the influx of this topic in the past few weeks, shoot, even days. I don't want to sound like a drill sgt. but every one should be exposed to it right away.

To the future of our frogs,

Ian
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:18 PM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I didn't get that from Shawn's post at all. The way I read it is as the old saying goes " The only stupid question is the one not asked" and that as experienced hobbyists we should all remember back when we were asking the exact same questions and treat the ones asking those questions the way we were treated when we asked them. And not be snobbish just because we view them as trivial beginner questions. They are beginner questions just as ours were.

Shawn correct me if i misspoke.

And even if we do not like the question being asked, answering it could have a better outcome than not answering it.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:34 PM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye View Post
Shock therapy it is then...
cooool were do i sign up i wanna get this going too
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:43 PM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Well I think the benefit of a well written, and locked sticky, is that it gives us something easy to reference right away. That way when people ask, and they will, we can give them a link, instead of saying "search!"

The overall opinion of the board should be strongly stressed, but not presented as the only possible thing you can do. It should be put forward as not mixing being the best option. I agree that it has to include reference to the fact frogs are kept in mixed tanks and people have had varrying experiences with that, from bad, to not so bad. Infact, it would be nice to have a couple first hand experiences in the article for reference such as the one Rich recently provided.

However, I do not think we should give a step by step how to keep a mixed species tank, this is contrary to the purpose of the sticky. Yes, people could read that it can and is done. But if we tell them how to do it they will ignor the need reasearch to actually pull it off. If a person chooses to mix, then THEY should do the research on how to do it. They should also accept the consequences. Only by them doing this research will they learn anything valuable, it might even turn them off the idea. The cons outway the pros in a mixed tank by a long shot, so we should not treat them as equal options because they are simply not.

So again, I stress a balanced article, but one that strongly advocates the prefered husbandry practices of single species tanks.
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Old 09-17-2008, 11:52 PM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott r View Post
I didn't get that from Shawn's post at all. The way I read it is as the old saying goes " The only stupid question is the one not asked" and that as experienced hobbyists we should all remember back when we were asking the exact same questions and treat the ones asking those questions the way we were treated when we asked them. And not be snobbish just because we view them as trivial beginner questions. They are beginner questions just as ours were.

Shawn correct me if i misspoke.

And even if we do not like the question being asked, answering it could have a better outcome than not answering it.
You're missing my point. The "quoting and bolding" was what I was addressing Scott.
I understand what Shawn posted.

Rich
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:27 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Mywebbedtoes,
I agree 100%. But It would be nice if Ed included some of the spatual necessities that He has addressed in the past, Someone talk about the cons of hybrids and WHY we want to keep the lines pure, Another speak of pathogens and parasites, Another stress issues. Etc.
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:33 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

..or we could just clip all of this from the stuff that has been writen about for the past five years here...
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:47 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Here's a quick question. Since we are still in the infancy of the hobby , and know little of the longevity potential of our captive darts, how are we to agree upon what constitutes a "successful mixed tank"? What yardstick do we use? Not knowing exactly what viruses (not readily testable) fungi, (also, not readily testable) , and/or a multitude of parasites , (not known or testable) are able to cross-contaminate dart to dart, much less dart to non-dart? How about hthe unseen/unknown stress factors contributed to species not only never found in their natives areas, but never seen a yard away from what should be a sole breeding area?
I'll keep going on this for awhile, if needed.
Once again, please read my signature and refute it if possible.
And we should be dragging (coddling) "newbies" into this conversation?? I don't think so.
For anybody who , after this, feels the need for a big group hug, I'll be @ MWFF. Come and see me for one free hug. Be it group or not.

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Old 09-18-2008, 12:47 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Yeah, that would be alot easier and quicker. The links on the Mixing 101 caresheet don't work. They are still Yabb. So, we could replace the links, add some new ones, Bold the title and done
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Old 09-18-2008, 12:56 AM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Rich, I think you should charge a dollar per hug at MWFF.

I do not like the idea of hybrids. I do feel that some people, no matter what information you give them about mixing in a tank, they will dismiss it until they fail. I do support the balance of information like what Mywebbedtoes is saying. Cons outway the pros.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:10 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

I agree. And I don't know if they should be labelled as pros, but it should be a balanced article.
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:32 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

How do we include pros if there are none known for the darts?
And how can it be "balanced" , if there are no know benefits to the darts?
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Old 09-18-2008, 01:50 AM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

If one has a larger tank (100g plus) a pro would be more diverse plant selection and hiding spots for frogs. It just couldn't be you can't mix because of ----reason. Don't get me wrong, i don't really go for mixed tanks but if someone wants to do it, all we can do is warn them and give them the information.

I think more of a suggested "pro/con" is the idea here.

Why is it people want a mixed tank? What really compells them to this idea? What are we as hobbyists and caretakers of PDF's doing to seed a notion of mixed tanks? Could zoos and aquariums be contributing to this idea with big setups full or 5 or 6 different species?

I think we need to look at these questions and address the problems before someone gets this idea. I mean, I went down to the Newport Aquarium in Kentucky and saw their mixed species tank. Hundreds of people come in and see that everyday and watch the "pretty frogs" getting along nicely in the mock environment. After seeing that, what do you think they do? Google dart frogs and find they are available for sale. Most people don't research even if they say they do and jump head first into things. This can lead to mixing.

So do we as preservers of these amphibians have a right to tell zoos what to do? We can suggest things but most likely our cries will fall on deaf ears.

I just wanted to throw that out there because I have seen and heard first hand, people at zoos and aquariums do this.

Ian
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:13 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

A pro to mixing is a more diverse plant selection and hiding spots?
I know why zoos, aquariums, amd museums mix. For the WOW factor , and thus $ through the doors.
But what are the benefits to mixing for the darts?
If anyone can name one, lets go on.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:16 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

If you wanted to write a caresheet of just your opinions why didn't you just say so?

I don't see why you are opposed to it being balanced and opinion free as stated by several members in this thread. Two of whom I consider to be well respected members of the board that don't mix but feel the info should be made available to try and reduce loss.
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Old 09-18-2008, 02:30 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by scott r View Post
If you wanted to write a caresheet of just your opinions why didn't you just say so?

I don't see why you are opposed to it being balanced and opinion free as stated by several members in this thread. Two of whom I consider to be well respected members of the board that don't mix but feel the info should be made available to try and reduce loss.
I already said I would write a ten page post if needed Scott. But,
What I want is for you, or anybody to answer my questions posed. Can you? Need I go back and ask them all again?
Again, how can it be balanced when 90+% don't belive in it, and 0% can give one single benefit to the darts? Is it that some are more concerned with what they want and like, as opposed to what is really safe/good/beneficial for our darts?
Please post your dart beneficial experiences (yours personal) with mixing.
And I write facts, you should be at least able to refute opinions.
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2008, 02:38 AM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Preventing loss is the key in mixed and non-mixed tanks. That's is why we go to great lengths to sanitize and plug every hole.

I don't necessarily see diverse species of plants and more hiding spots as a key pro in a mixed tank. I just threw that out there. Seems to be that most people want to mix 2 frogs of 2 different species to allow a greater roaming range for the frogs. I do not have a mixed tank nor plan one. I'm just trying to see the world through the eyes of another.

I don't know if we will ever know if there are any benefits to the frog or not. I hate to think of how many frogs will be sacrificed to find out though.

Grassypeak had a saying in his signature that I really thought about when I first found this board. It said instead of keeping more species, do more with the species you keep. I found this to be very thought provoking. it made me ask why chance something like a mixed tank. I've lost a few frogs due to cracks in the top of my tank, I just couldn't see myself mixing and loosing more. So enough of my rambling
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Old 09-18-2008, 03:13 AM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

OK. so I'll take Rich's bait for now. But I will take a slightly different tack than I'm sure Rich meant. By "benefit to the frogs" I am looking at the frog species as a group. Not the individual specimens in the tanks. The major benefit to the frogs of having a mixed-species tank is that it inspires people to more greatly appreciate the beauty of these animals and want to conserve them. It may even inspire a few more hobbyists to get into it than one or three single-species exhibits would.

Rich says that zoos mix to increase WOW factor and I'll give you that. But I strongly disagree with the $$ comment! If you look at any exit survey of zoo/aquarium visitors, darts don't make the top 10, let alone 5 exhibits in popularity. Charismatic megafauna are the big draws for gate. Darts are a pretty filler that a few people will take the time to look at. Maximizing color and diversity helps increase visitor retention time and allows you to get a message to more people.

In short, you have to captivate the public to educate them so that they are inspired to conserve. From a zoo perspective, this is the crux of the matter. Is it worth a few individual specimens being stressed by a mixed-species exhibit to inspire the next Rich Frye, Tor Linbo or Ron Gagliardo? is it worth it to inspire someone with money to throw some at conservation? If all of the specimens are captive-bred, there is no harm to the rainforest. Most zoos do not breed them (for space, budget and other reasons), so there is little real danger of creating hybrids.

From a hobbyist standpoint, there probably is not a benefit to the individual specimens. But any thread here should NOT come across as preachy, snobbish or otherwise derogatory. Not only will this not stop people from mixing frogs, but it could cost you the next great hobbyist, researcher or environmental champion. And that would be an unforgivable mistake on this community's part! Political correctness is the order of the day IMO, both in the thread to point at, as well as the people doing the pointing.

Just my thoughts.
Rich Terrell
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 09-18-2008, 04:00 AM
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Frye View Post
I already said I would write a ten page post if needed Scott. But,
What I want is for you, or anybody to answer my questions posed. Can you? Need I go back and ask them all again?
Again, how can it be balanced when 90+% don't belive in it, and 0% can give one single benefit to the darts? Is it that some are more concerned with what they want and like, as opposed to what is really safe/good/beneficial for our darts?
Please post your dart beneficial experiences (yours personal) with mixing.
And I write facts, you should be at least able to refute opinions.
Has a study done on the deleterious effects of mixed species tanks? This would require many mixed tanks to be set up and observed. I don't think the benefits or negatives we come up on this forum can be viewed as fact, especially from a few personal experiences (with mixed tanks), which would not be quantitative data. I feel that there are only opinions of the matter, and like all others, there will constantly be two sides to the coin.

If another care sheet is composed regarding mixed tanks, it would be nice to see it unbiased; presenting the possible negatives along with recommendations for those who choose to do so. An advisement not to attempt mixing as it could be harmful to the inhabitants for 'blank' reasons and requires 'blank' experience would be fair though, for educational purposes.

I don't advocate mixed tanks - I am simply attempting to offer a broadened perspective.


Mike
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Old 09-18-2008, 04:43 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by insularexotics View Post
OK. so I'll take Rich's bait for now. But I will take a slightly different tack than I'm sure Rich meant. By "benefit to the frogs" I am looking at the frog species as a group. Not the individual specimens in the tanks. The major benefit to the frogs of having a mixed-species tank is that it inspires people to more greatly appreciate the beauty of these animals and want to conserve them. It may even inspire a few more hobbyists to get into it than one or three single-species exhibits would.
BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
(Sound of treblehook in gill, officially a snag...)
So, we need to have a mixed species tank to inspire people? And that first glance into our hobby is that of exactly what the vast majority is trying to stop. Quality over quantity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by insularexotics View Post
Rich says that zoos mix to increase WOW factor and I'll give you that. But I strongly disagree with the $$ comment! If you look at any exit survey of zoo/aquarium visitors, darts don't make the top 10, let alone 5 exhibits in popularity. Charismatic megafauna are the big draws for gate. Darts are a pretty filler that a few people will take the time to look at. Maximizing color and diversity helps increase visitor retention time and allows you to get a message to more people.
Simple. WOW factor = interest. Interest= people in the door=$. No interest, no dart exhibit. In this day and age the one thing we can all agree upon is supply and demand, and the $ it invovles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by insularexotics View Post
In short, you have to captivate the public to educate them so that they are inspired to conserve. From a zoo perspective, this is the crux of the matter. Is it worth a few individual specimens being stressed by a mixed-species exhibit to inspire the next Rich Frye, Tor Linbo or Ron Gagliardo? is it worth it to inspire someone with money to throw some at conservation? If all of the specimens are captive-bred, there is no harm to the rainforest. Most zoos do not breed them (for space, budget and other reasons), so there is little real danger of creating hybrids.
Educate exactly how Rich? They exist? Sorry if I am "preachy", but my education to those getting into the hobby is exactly the opposite of what most zoos and such are presenting the public. If you wish to condone this and justify it as looking to have cash thrown towards conservation and the like, and getting new hobbyists from that WOW factor, I'm not buying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by insularexotics View Post
From a hobbyist standpoint, there probably is not a benefit to the individual specimens. But any thread here should NOT come across as preachy, snobbish or otherwise derogatory. Not only will this not stop people from mixing frogs, but it could cost you the next great hobbyist, researcher or environmental champion. And that would be an unforgivable mistake on this community's part! Political correctness is the order of the day IMO, both in the thread to point at, as well as the people doing the pointinJust my thoughts.
Rich Terrell
Insular Exotics
I would hate to scare away the next great guru from this hobby. But I dare to say that next great guru will probably be able to stand up to a simpleton like me. I'm not worried they are slipping away. Quite the opposite.
If you care to address, bait taken and all, the pointed questions many have avoided, such as yardsticks to be used as "success sticks" and benefits , again other than to people, then I am all ears. Holding hands, hugging, and air kissing to be done @ MWFF , after the first beer is cracked. WI guys, try and out draw us this year...

Rich
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Old 09-18-2008, 04:45 AM
 
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Default Re: Is it possible to get a giant mixing sticky??

Quote:
Originally Posted by roxrgneiss View Post
Has a study done on the deleterious effects of mixed species tanks? This would require many mixed tanks to be set up and observed. I don't think the benefits or negatives we come up on this forum can be viewed as fact, especially from a few personal experiences (with mixed tanks), which would not be quantitative data. I feel that there are only opinions of the matter, and like all others, there will constantly be two sides to the coin.

If another care sheet is composed regarding mixed tanks, it would be nice to see it unbiased; presenting the possible negatives along with recommendations for those who choose to do so. An advisement not to attempt mixing as it could be harmful to the inhabitants for 'blank' reasons and requires 'blank' experience would be fair though, for educational purposes.

I don't advocate mixed tanks - I am simply attempting to offer a broadened perspective.


Mike
I'll simply ask you to point out an opinion I state vs. fact. If you can tell me where me opinion is swaying any fact here I'll drop out of this thread now.
I post factual , personal experience about mixing, vs. those that have never mixed . Facts such as, no aggression, no breeding, no outward signs of stress, and on and on. From animals properly tested/possibly treated/quarantined. You know, facts and such.

Last edited by Rich Frye; 09-18-2008 at 04:48 AM.
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