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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2019, 06:19 PM
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Default Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

D.Tinctorius Tumucumaque at 3-4 months old :







Today I sold 10 of my Tumucumaque offspring that are now 3-4 months old. I took some pictures of these frogs because I realy wanted to share with you all how beautifull this morph of tinctorius is and how big they get in just this short period of time. Their colors are absolutely vibrant!

I am aware that unfortunalty these frogs are illegal in the USA, while here in Europe they are legal. I do not mean to start a disscussion or upset annyone, I just like to share these pictures.

I hope you enjoy.
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Old 09-09-2019, 03:47 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Those are huge frogs for 3-4 months, Tijl! Are the adults especially large?

Mark
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Old 09-09-2019, 04:55 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

I know right? They grow big fast!

The adult frogs are medium sized Tinctorius in my opinion. The parent male is compareable to leucomelas size.



Female on the left, male on the right.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:22 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

These are also good breeders. First good clutch was februari this year and I've had 56 juveniles on land since then and around 10 tadpoles swimming. I havent gotten anny clutches last month, I don't mind they are on a break right now.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:26 PM
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What a gorgeous frog.

Hopefully the US gets legality straightened out for Tumucumaque.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:42 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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Originally Posted by DPfarr View Post
What a gorgeous frog.

Hopefully the US gets legality straightened out for Tumucumaque.
I think it's pretty unlikely since these guys come from Brazil. I am not expert on export laws, but I am under the impression that Brazil doesn't allow the export of any of their animals. Maybe it's more nuanced than that, though. To the best of my knowledge all Tumucumaque Tincs in captivity came from smuggled stock initially. If I am wrong about that, though, please correct.

Mark
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:24 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
I think it's pretty unlikely since these guys come from Brazil. I am not expert on export laws, but I am under the impression that Brazil doesn't allow the export of any of their animals. Maybe it's more nuanced than that, though. To the best of my knowledge all Tumucumaque Tincs in captivity came from smuggled stock initially. If I am wrong about that, though, please correct.

Mark
You are correct, Frogs (among other animals) from Brazil are defentily smuggled since there never happend anny legal export. But just like Galactonotus, there might be a possibility the morph can be "tolerated". That is what happend here in Europe.

The Tumucumaque I own are bred in a German zoo and they got distrubuted to a wholeseller in Holland. The parents of my adults are apparently frogs that got intercepted at an airport, at least thats how I understand it. Mayebe in the US there are Zoo's that got permits to study this morph in captivity, an thus were able to collect some wild specimens. But I have no knowledge of this.

What I am trying to say is that there are a few ways or possibilities that this moprh could become "legal" in your country.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:57 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Every Australian herp in the US is in that "tolerated" category, AFAIK. This includes species that show up in US hands even in recent years (lots of new Aussie geckos). Supposedly the Hamm show is a big hub for laundered animals (smuggled into Europe, claimed to be CB, then shipped to the US and elsewhere).

My understanding of zoo stock that enters the hobby is that this is not quite legitimate, either. I recall Ed posting something here in the past about research export permits not allowing for this sort of thing. (I'm not saying this is directly relevant to Tumucumaque, since they didn't have a permit at all.)
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Old 09-09-2019, 10:39 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

It's true that weird stuff happens sometimes. Isn't there a line of Azureus that came from the Baltimore Aquarium or am I misremembering?

Mark
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:44 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Who knows? The way Jair Bolsanaro views nature, legal exports may happen. He's not that smart though.
If this dark humor offends anyone, sorry. I have Brazilian friends so I'm obligated to dig at Bolsanaro at every opportunity.

Beautiful Frogs, by the way...
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Old 09-12-2019, 08:32 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

My kind of humor!

thanks for the compliment.
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Old 09-12-2019, 06:26 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Nice!

I am also getting 4 juvenile Tumus at Hamm this week


in what size of tank do you keep them at the moment?

cheers
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Old 09-12-2019, 07:19 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Cool, I am also going to Hamm to pick up my new Bullseye male and sell some pumilio, terribilis and tumucumaque. You are not too late to get your hands on these beautifull tumucs!

I keep my offspring in 40x40x40 tanks or plastic boxes 30x30x30.

https://youtu.be/hOqE_sojvkQ (clip of a few weeks aggo)

Breeding couple has a 100x50x50 tank.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:19 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Awesome!


I plan on putting them in a 70x50x60cm tank.

Already prepared with lots of springtails and isopods though



and I moved my Punta Laurent into the smaller 40x40x50 tank.

I had issues with keeping track on their health and could not find them most of the time...
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Old 09-23-2019, 03:15 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Yesterday I had a table at the "Houten-terraria fair" were I was selling off some of my offspring,plants and other... During this fair I was very fortunate to get a visit of Matthijs Kuijpers (a well know dutch wildlife photograper) at my table. He ask me if he could lend one of the Tumucumaque to take some pictures of this specimen. Ofcourse I said yes, I felt so honored by his request.

Today I already received an email containing the result of his work :



I could not be more happy to have such a beautifull picture of one of my own frogs!



For more of Matthijs's work visit :

https://www.instagram.com/mgkuypers/
reptile photography
https://www.facebook.com/Reptiles4all/
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Old 09-24-2019, 02:46 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Sad to see these frogs, knowing they have a recent illegal origin...
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Old 09-24-2019, 08:57 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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Sad to see these frogs, knowing they have a recent illegal origin...
Which species of dartfrog in our hobby does not have an illegal origin at first? Does a paper wich says the frogs are legal now make it any better? The paperwork to make any wildcaught animal legal are 90% of the time still done by a illegal way of bribing and corruption. Every single Oophaga pumilio in the hobby is a great example for this. As far as i know,to this day only tesoros and wikiri are the only real "legal" and "humain" frog exporters that are based insitu.

Ofcourse I don't support illegal trade since their are numberous of dowsides for the species, their habbitat and many,many other reasons. But that's a another/differnet disscusion.


So don't get me wrong, I understand your reaction tho.

But look at the upside of making them legal.
The last year (since Tumucumaque have been declared legal in Europe) I have already seen hundreds, mayebe thousands of captive bred Tumucs.
I think this is very positve for different reasons. It is the same of how I feel about Galactonotus made legal for example.

One reason is that there is no more need to get them out of the wild since the suply of frogs is bigger or as great as the demand for this frog!

Another upside of their legality now is that this this morph can be preserved, since they are so easy to breed.

So say the government makes them Illegal again, this would probably be the downfall of this species. (Let alone talk about their habbitit being destroyed.)
I hope they will be made legal in the USA very soon, so this species will even get better preserved and studied.
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Old 09-25-2019, 05:04 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Yes, this argument has been made many times in the past. Some people seem to think that because others have done illegal things in the past, it justifies them doing illegal things in the present...

These frogs should already be legal in the USA. USFWS decides on legality based on the species, not the morph. Since other tincs/azureus are legal, this morph is as well, since it's the same species.
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Old 09-25-2019, 06:56 AM
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Yes, this argument has been made many times in the past. Some people seem to think that because others have done illegal things in the past, it justifies them doing illegal things in the present...
It all perception. I don't think or believe that doing illegal things in the present is the correct way or justifiable for annything we done in the past/present.

The problem is knowing what is legal and what is illegal? There could not be a thinner line in the trade or hobby of exoticanimals. I can only hope more "companies" like Tesoros de Colombia and Wikiri start to rise up. This for many reasons.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:36 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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These frogs should already be legal in the USA. USFWS decides on legality based on the species, not the morph. Since other tincs/azureus are legal, this morph is as well, since it's the same species.
I don't quite get this line of reasoning.

USFWS doesn't 'decide on legality'. They investigate apparent violations of existing legislation.

An animal is "legal" (which means 'legally imported' in the present context) only if they were collected and imported without violation of the laws of any country, or if the animal in question is the offspring of such a legally imported animal. This is what the text of the Lacey Act pretty clearly reads, anyway.

I don't get the 'species/morph' distinction, either. Some wildlife laws do differentiate between morphs. If I import from Germany a hundred CB Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum , I'm violating the Lacey Act since possession limit in my state is two. If they're albinos, though, I'm not in violation, since my state excludes abberantly colored or patterned animals from possession limits.

It seems as if you're using "legal" to mean "allowed" or "not investigated by USFWS", which is a different matter.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:51 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

My understanding is that for "Dendrobatres tinctorius" are legal. We all know that Tumumcucmcumanque are morphs of tinctorius. So, even though we all know that this particular morph has never been legally imported to the US, it might not be illegal because it falls under the umbrella of "tinctorius." That might prevent someone from being prosecuted even though this morph in the US (and everywhere else?) undoubtedly started off smuggled. USFW (or CITES?) just doesn't go down far enough in taxonomy to specific that one morph is legal while another isn't. Far from ideal...

Mark
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Old 09-26-2019, 12:52 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Here's the full text of the Lacey Act:
https://www.fws.gov/le/pdffiles/Lacey.pdf

Note that United States Association of Reptile Keepers, Inc. v. Zinke (No. 15-5199) narrows Lacey a bit, but that doesn't seem important to the present discussion.
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Old 09-29-2019, 09:46 PM
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Today I had a table at the Antwerp "Naturaria' expo. I had some good sales, met some new and seen some familiar faces. Realy had a blast at the fair!

An hour before the expo closed,2 guys walk up to my table and make some chat. Very funny guys, had the idea they know a lot about frogs, turns out these guys only live a 15 minute drive from my home, had some more laughs... Yall know how meeting new people get be fun. One of the guys gives me some compliments about the tumucumaque offspring and asks me if he could buy 5. Happy to help ofc. We both try to guess probable males, females etc... Deal is done. Have some more chat about pumilio and they showed me some very neat pictures of a trip they went on to find the pumilio, so I was realy glad to meet them and to have this interesting talk. Asked if I could join them to panama next time 😄

Now the expo was almost over, we packed up our stuff and went to the exit. At the exit of the convention an exo terra salemen runs up to us like his life depends on it and shout whats size shirts we have? Me and my wife told him out size and he asked if we have a minute to wait. He gives us 2 shirts of the exo terra " expedition bocas del toro". Very cool, but I did not get why we got shirts. Guess we got lucky somehow? In hindsight here is were I should yave put the pieces together...

When we came home I read some brochures I picked up at the fair and at the first page i look at I see the guy that bought the 5 tumucumaque! It turns out he is no one less than Emmanuel Van Heygen, the founder of exo terra himself! How cool is that!? Im still a litlle shocked, he and his friend realy were the nicest guys I've met all day.

I realy wanted to share this story, its not every day you get to sell some frogs to such a big name and gamechanger of our hobby!

Made my day!!
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Old 09-29-2019, 10:02 PM
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Forgot to mention we also put up 2 frames to advertise for dendroboard at our table 🙂 I realy like this forum and wanted too make people in Belgium awere of this website and its members/community. Hope some new people sign up!

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Old 09-29-2019, 10:41 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

very nice!

Would have loved to visit the fair but Belgium is a tad too far away ^^



also cool that your wife supports your hobby! Mine doesn't really like amphibians...
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Old 09-30-2019, 08:24 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Yea, I am glad she supports me and helps out with everything I do!

Next week DN frog day in Nieuwegein, Holland!

https://www.gifkikkerportaal.nl/
https://www.gifkikkerportaal.nl/DN-kikkerdag
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Old 01-18-2020, 07:49 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

So, I saw an Instagram post today that dart frog connection posted.. apparently they now have these...... guess someone is back to smuggling..
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Old 01-18-2020, 08:17 AM
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I don't understand your comment?
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Old 01-21-2020, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

In the US Tumucumaque is still not legal.

In Europe Tumucumaque is just legal because the smuggled frogs (I think they were smuggled to Sweden) were confiscated and given to "more responsible" breeders. So the offspring was legal. However it was never officially imported.
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Old 01-21-2020, 03:02 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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In the US Tumucumaque is still not legal.

In Europe Tumucumaque is just legal because the smuggled frogs (I think they were smuggled to Sweden) were confiscated and given to "more responsible" breeders. So the offspring was legal. However it was never officially imported.

Yes, I know. This is already discussed in this topic. I still don't get Rob jeresey's post?
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Old 01-21-2020, 03:43 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
Yes, I know. This is already discussed in this topic. I still don't get Rob jeresey's post?
He says "dart frog connection" who is resident in the US is smuggling Tumucumaque to the US.
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Old 01-21-2020, 04:05 PM
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Ooh, yes that makes more sense to me. Ty for explaining. Never heard of " the dartfrog connection " before.

I don't see why that comment has anything to do with my topic. 😄 But I don't mind.
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:02 PM
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Apparently there was a large import of them into the US. Not only dfc but TC’s dart frogs. I think both of them legitimized it by a “paper trail”.

Taron:
“... they have been imported into USA multiple occasions and the USFWS has cleared them everytime.”

“...according to some hobbyists they violate the Lacey Act.”

You know who the ones coming in came from Tijl?
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Old 01-21-2020, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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You know who the ones coming in came from Tijl?

Haha, that would be super crazy! I am 100% sure I sold all my frogs to "local" fellow frog enthousiast and only in small numbers. My adult Tumucumaque pair produced +-80 juveniles last year and I still own 29 of them. It would be very strange if my offspring found a way overseas..

I want to add that I did receive more than one request to ship frogs (also Tumucumaque) overseas or sell the frogs in bulk too an exporter. But I don't want to get in to the import/export buisness since I don't have any interest in this.. I only breed (any of my frogs) for fellow frog enthousiast here in Europe. There is more than enough demand here for frogs. I also do not want to sell to bulk buyers since I value my frog's life and wellbeing over money.

I also always screen buyers before I sell to them. I ask various questions about their frog knowledge and what they plan to do with the frogs they want to buy. I refused to sell frogs more than once if I was not happy with the answers or if I found it ethicly not correct to sell certain people.

I hope most of us breeder "screen" their buyers before selling. unfortunatly I've been proven otherwise many times before since money makes people lose their ethics and values..

The most important aspect for me is that the frog's get the best life they can get in captivity and that breeding frogs reduce the demand for uncontrolled wildcaught animals. I believe breeding frogs in captivity also preserve species. For example this is one of the reasons why I am expanding my O.P.Bastimentos "red frog beach" tanks. Making sure this morph stay available in the hobby.
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Old 01-21-2020, 08:40 PM
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That’s a difficult stance to find anything at fault with. I hope mentioned people are motivated enough to figure this out and do the sort of work you did for this tinctorius locality. We don’t need to have them but they deserve the dignity not to be confiscated or suffer the legality of our doings.
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Old 02-02-2020, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

The end of the dry season get's celebrated with a nice whistling concert.

Clip : https://youtu.be/g_tfB0YFZdI

The female taps :


The male responds by calling :

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Old 02-10-2020, 04:26 AM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

Such a cool frog hopefully they make there way to the us someone got to have them to bad
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
The end of the dry season get's celebrated with a nice whistling concert.

Clip : https://youtu.be/g_tfB0YFZdI

The female taps :


The male responds by calling :

Can i ask where you got the little huts? i dont like the look of coca-nuts and these look cooler
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Old Today, 07:43 AM
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I bought the plastic huts from dutch rana.
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Old Today, 01:51 PM
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Default Re: Dendrobates Tinctorius "Tumucumaque"

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I bought the plastic huts from dutch rana.
Okay cool ill take a look and see if i can find them or like object in the states.

Absolutely love these little guys tho. So many colors and are so vividly colored.
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