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-   Breeding, Eggs & Tadpoles (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/)
-   -   Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc... (https://www.dendroboard.com/forum/breeding-eggs-tadpoles/52162-pumilio-froglet-care-101-how-care-etc.html)

jfehr232 04-01-2010 04:06 PM

Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Well I have 5 basti froglets and I been asking around but phil suggested that I make a thread and a lot more people can chime in.

I realize there is a care sheet but any new info is always a plus.

Breeding/ Feeding/ Housing for pumilio can all be an input here....Just looking to help others out while getting new ideas for myself.

So, I plan on housing my froglets in 190oz tubs with moss & some substrate for the springs. Also tons of leaf litter( plan on getting more at Jason's meet hopefully)

So any PUMILIO experiences can be a great input. THANKS!

rjmarchisi 04-01-2010 06:41 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 

Philsuma 04-01-2010 06:49 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
John,

You have 5 Basti froglets right now?

#1. I am liking my breeding ratio of 1.2 even though a female cauchero was recently caught eating eggs. It still produces more healthy froglets IMO and I'm gonna go with that ratio for now.

#2. INCREASE the number of broms available for tad depositon. I try to go with a rule of 3 broms minimum per pumilio - male or female. That gives them the choices that they need. 9-10 broms in a 20 or 33 gallon viv is not that many.

#3 Leave the froglets in the parental viv until juvenile size - @ 5 weeks or more. They seem to do better this way.

#4 MASTER the art of culturing springtails and keep feeding out every other day, at least, as the adults will eat a large percentage of them.

#5 Place 2-3 of the 5 week old Pums in nicely planted 10 gallon verts for grow out. ...see...the 10 gallon tank does have a use after all !

Just some suggestions since you PM'ed me.......works for me. Your mileage may vary.

Arrynia 04-01-2010 08:22 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philsuma (Post 453795)
John,



#5 Place 2-3 of the 5 week old Pums in nicely planted 10 gallon verts for grow out. ...see...the 10 gallon tank does have a use after all !

haha....that's all I used them for as well. Grow outs and plante propagation.

Brien 04-01-2010 08:32 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Hi I have raised some basti froglets on only fruit flys but the key I think was to use the older cultures. I had plenty of springs till I left for a week or so and forgot all about them so I didn't have any when they morphed out, so I fed fruit flys from my older cultures. I also have them in the parents tank and it has a UVB bulb on it. I haven't lost any froglets and they have been 3.5 months out of the water.

Arrynia 04-01-2010 08:36 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brien (Post 453836)
Hi I have raised some basti froglets on only fruit flys but the key I think was to use the older cultures. I had plenty of springs till I left for a week or so and forgot all about them so I didn't have any when they morphed out, so I fed fruit flys from my older cultures. I also have them in the parents tank and it has a UVB bulb on it. I haven't lost any froglets and they have been 3.5 months out of the water.

Is there glass between the UVB bulb and the frogs?

Philsuma 04-01-2010 08:41 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brien (Post 453836)
Hi I have raised some basti froglets on only fruit flys but the key I think was to use the older cultures. I had plenty of springs till I left for a week or so and forgot all about them so I didn't have any when they morphed out, so I fed fruit flys from my older cultures. I also have them in the parents tank and it has a UVB bulb on it. I haven't lost any froglets and they have been 3.5 months out of the water.

Yep....great tip. Feed out the old, old, old Melano cultures containing the tiny stunted or runted, flies. Some mites may be in there as well....all the better !

I dust every feeding and alternate at least 3 diff kinds of supps.

There's quite a bit on here - older posts, about UV and I don't think anyone had any evidence that it worked or had made any difference for them.

Good stuff.

Brien 04-01-2010 08:48 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
No their is no glass in between the frogs and UVB bulb theirs a screen and the hood is hot glued down to help humidity. It would be pointless if their was glass in between the frogs and builb.

Thanks

Arrynia 04-01-2010 08:52 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brien (Post 453842)
No their is no glass in between the frogs and UVB bulb theirs a screen and the hood is hot glued down to help humidity. It would be pointless if their was glass in between the frogs and builb.

Thanks

Righty-o! I just wanted to make sure that wasn;t the case...you would be surprised at how many people don't know this. ;)

jfehr232 04-01-2010 09:01 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rjmarchisi (Post 453793)

Thanks for the links but I have read them and they are very helpful. I am also looking if people have came up with new ideas and this hobby is always changing so I figured I this could be a good way to bring it back up.:)

jfehr232 04-01-2010 09:03 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brien (Post 453836)
Hi I have raised some basti froglets on only fruit flys but the key I think was to use the older cultures. I had plenty of springs till I left for a week or so and forgot all about them so I didn't have any when they morphed out, so I fed fruit flys from my older cultures. I also have them in the parents tank and it has a UVB bulb on it. I haven't lost any froglets and they have been 3.5 months out of the water.

O wow...yea thats actually a good idea. I have two old ones that I was going to throw away but I guess it looks like I will be saving them ahah

Thanks for the post

jfehr232 04-01-2010 09:06 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philsuma (Post 453795)
John,

You have 5 Basti froglets right now?

#1. I am liking my breeding ratio of 1.2 even though a female cauchero was recently caught eating eggs. It still produces more healthy froglets IMO and I'm gonna go with that ratio for now.

#2. INCREASE the number of broms available for tad depositon. I try to go with a rule of 3 broms minimum per pumilio - male or female. That gives them the choices that they need. 9-10 broms in a 20 or 33 gallon viv is not that many.

#3 Leave the froglets in the parental viv until juvenile size - @ 5 weeks or more. They seem to do better this way.

#4 MASTER the art of culturing springtails and keep feeding out every other day, at least, as the adults will eat a large percentage of them.

#5 Place 2-3 of the 5 week old Pums in nicely planted 10 gallon verts for grow out. ...see...the 10 gallon tank does have a use after all !

Just some suggestions since you PM'ed me.......works for me. Your mileage may vary.


Thanks for posting on here Phil. I pulled three of them out and their is still two left.

Looks like I will have to go out and get some 10g and start having some fun building them!!

I was thinking about getting another female but I have them in a 12 12 18 zoo med so I might just upgrade to a bigger tank....

Philsuma 04-01-2010 09:26 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
My pairs - Rios and Basti's are in 20 gallon verts.

My trios - Eldorados, Caucheros are in 33 gallon verts - large exo's and zoomeds.

The 10 gallon size verts are great for grow-out's and the small enclosure size helps the small froglets find food and get to some FF before they groom all the supp powder off themselves.

jfehr232 04-02-2010 04:30 AM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Yea, I like the taller viv's for them because it always seems like my pumilio are at the highest part of my exo terra and zoo med I have.

Do you have lights on the froglet tanks?

Roadrunner 04-02-2010 11:30 AM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philsuma (Post 453795)

#1. I am liking my breeding ratio of 1.2 even though a female cauchero was recently caught eating eggs. It still produces more healthy froglets IMO and I'm gonna go with that ratio for now.
.

Since you have a proven female extra why not produce more unrelated frogs by getting another male? Producing more half related frogs doesn`t do much for people not bottlenecking genes. Plus you won`t be able to tell who came from which female.

PantMan 04-02-2010 12:11 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Another great post. I found the limks very useful. Looks like I may have underestimated the need to circulate air.

I did not include any fans in my tank to circulate the air. However, I do use a water heater to heat my tank. Heating my tank this way should result in a very slight air exchange (warm air rises cool air falls). I'm pretty sure there is a temperature gradient in the tank. I'm confident I have all the other bases covered - 46 gallons for a pair, lots of leaf litter, and 8 broms of various size & location. The question is should I still add a small fan to circulate the air? Being that the tank is essentially done I'm hesitant to go in and install a fan but if its going to have a significant positive effect than I'll run at to radio shack and get a fan.

Philsuma 04-02-2010 01:19 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frogfarm (Post 454052)
Since you have a proven female extra why not produce more unrelated frogs by getting another male? Producing more half related frogs doesn`t do much for people not bottlenecking genes. Plus you won`t be able to tell who came from which female.


I'm scratching my head thinking about what a "half-related" frog may be, and how frogs produced from a trio are "worse" than those from a pair......

melas 04-02-2010 03:03 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Philsuma (Post 454064)
I'm scratching my head thinking about what a "half-related" frog may be, and how frogs produced from a trio are "worse" than those from a pair......

2 frogs - same dad - different mom. I think he's saying (and I would agree) that by having two seperate pairs you'd essentially have two "lines" of frogs rather than having a 1.2 where the "lines" would be indistinguishable and not truly "unrelated" . . .

melas 04-02-2010 03:03 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Of course if you don't have access to another male I guess that's as good as it gets . . .

Philsuma 04-02-2010 03:10 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by melas (Post 454082)
2 frogs - same dad - different mom. I think he's saying (and I would agree) that by having two seperate pairs you'd essentially have two "lines" of frogs rather than having a 1.2 where the "lines" would be indistinguishable and not truly "unrelated" . . .


Yeah....I literally figured that part out, but I guess a more appropriate counter point would be:

How are we even arguing hobby genetics with pumilio species brought into this country in 2 liter coke bottles and film canisters with no species locality data what so ever?

The only pumilio lines I'm aware of are Rich Frye's....

zBrinks 04-02-2010 03:53 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
It's a safe bet that wc pums are going to be unrelated to each other. Even though exact locality data is not known, if the frogs are from the same import and look phenotypically similar, why not work to produce genetically diverse offspring? It allows people to purchase offspring from you that are not related, and avoid inbreeding.

Even if the frogs are not 'locality specific', discouraging inbreeding is typically not a bad idea.

Roadrunner 04-02-2010 05:57 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
You`re right. why try at all? I give up.
I don`t understand why you`d get unknowns brought in in 2 liter bottles when SNDF had locale specific Cauchero and El Dorado available though.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Philsuma (Post 454086)
Yeah....I literally figured that part out, but I guess a more appropriate counter point would be:

How are we even arguing hobby genetics with pumilio species brought into this country in 2 liter coke bottles and film canisters with no species locality data what so ever?

The only pumilio lines I'm aware of are Rich Frye's....


Philsuma 04-02-2010 06:23 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by frogfarm (Post 454136)
....locale specific Cauchero and El Dorado.....

Some importers tell you: "We have the specific GPS coordinants but unfortunately we can't trust YOU with than information as it may lead to smuggling / extirpation"

Do you have the locality info?

Roadrunner 04-02-2010 06:30 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Ya, Cauchero and El Dorado. Everyone is using those coordinates. You don`t need exact GPS coordinates as long as we all use the same name for the same group/population of frogs that breed together. If we only try w/ frogs w/ exact GPS coordinates we`re in real trouble!

Philsuma 04-02-2010 06:33 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zBrinks (Post 454093)
It's a safe bet that wc pums are going to be unrelated to each other. Even though exact locality data is not known, if the frogs are from the same import and look phenotypically similar, why not work to produce genetically diverse offspring? It allows people to purchase offspring from you that are not related, and avoid inbreeding.

Even if the frogs are not 'locality specific', discouraging inbreeding is typically not a bad idea.

Quite right. I have always been an advocate of genetic diveristy and doing all that we can even at the hobbyist level.

I just had to try and defend my breeding group experiment in a rather short reply post.


Whenever I obtain WC or CB pumilio - I have both, I try to add or otherwise include another male or female down the road, from another source. I considered this a reasonable attempt at diversity, i.e a different part of the U.S, or calendar year, import shipment ect.

I have split up my proven breeding pairs just to accomplish this in the past. I have given away proven pumilio as well, so as to attempt to help another hobbyist with this same issue.

Even with raising 4 Tinc froglets that you obtain from a single source / breeder.Same issue. Raise them all up, attempt to acertain the sexes and desired ratio if breeding is your goal, and finally try to either trade or purchase one or two additional animals from another responsible and well known hobbyist to increase your chance for diversity.

jfehr232 04-03-2010 03:25 AM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
So is their a rough estimate on how many people actually have the coordinates from where their frogs are from???

Phil- so they main thing you are trying to do is have genetic diversity correct? Without diversity, more populations of species would have mutations correct?

jfehr232 04-03-2010 03:27 AM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
So is their a rough estimate on how many people actually have the coordinates from where their frogs are from???

Phil- so they main thing you are trying to do is have genetic diversity correct? Without diversity, more populations of species would have mutations, simply because of breeding within the family(I think this may be right lol...

Philsuma 04-03-2010 03:43 AM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
John,

I just try to add another same species frog from another hobbyist / source just to keep things fresh and this seems to help spur renewed breeding activity in most cases as well. There is also the chance of the new frog being unacceptable to the current one(s) and you have to be prepared for that possibility as well....

It's a cool hobby huh?

Ed 04-03-2010 04:12 AM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Inbreeding and outcrossing have to managed very carefully with captive populations to ensure the long term stability of the population. I'm not going to discuss it further in this thread, but I suggest those who are discussing inbreeding read through the following reference

This article actually gives a good overview of both inbreeding risks and outbreeding risks... It took awhile to find a free online copy

http://www.montana.edu/~wwwbi/staff/...nds%202007.pdf

Edmands, Suzanne; 2007;Between a rock and a hard place: evaluating the relative risks
of inbreeding and outbreeding for conservation and management; Molecular Ecology 16, 463475

Note; that inbreeding and outbreeding effects can be easily confused and the recommendations seen in the discussion section of the article on attempting to prevent the occurance of the effects of inbreeding/outbreeding. Both of these are significant risks and can have significant effects on the survivial of a captive population as the results of either/both can reduce the ability of the animal to resist disease pathogens common in captive situations (like saprolegnia..). One of the biggest problems is that negative results of outbreeding/out crossing may take as much as three generations to appear and can result in the death of the population.

Other relevent references for those interested...

SpringerLink - Journal Article

CJO - Abstract - Supplementation or <em>in situ</em> conservation? Evidence of local adaptation in the Italian agile frog <em>Rana latastei</em> and consequences for the management of populations

ScienceDirect - Fisheries Research : Heterosis and outbreeding depression: a multi-locus model and an application to salmon production



As noted above, this is going to be my sole comment on inbreeding/outbreeding in this thread. There are other threads where it has been well discussed so those who are interested should check it out there.

Ed

jfehr232 04-05-2010 02:39 PM

Re: Pumilio Froglet care 101 ......How to/Care/etc...
 
Thanks ed, I realize this went off topic a little bit but its fine. That is some really interesting links.

Well, I all 5 froglets in the 190 oz container and a little 2.5 gallon tank I have and they are all doing great!! The one was really skinny but after moving him out of the tank, he is a lot healthier.


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