Bad egg clutches - Dendroboard
Dendroboard

Go Back   Dendroboard > Dart Frogs > Breeding, Eggs & Tadpoles
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read Advertise

Support Our Sponsors
No Threads to Display.

facebook

Like Tree25Likes

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 12:35 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Hi guys, just need some suggestion from your experience about breeding.

My 2 females variabilis have both laid probably at least 8 clutches each but none ever developed. They just developed white spots on the 3rd/4th day and then gradually the white increases and the eggs look bad.

The noticeable changes apart from the egg turning white are: the egg White/jelly gradually goes cloudy from the 3rd day; the egg yolk itself doesn't expand as some photos of bad eggs that I've seen. They just lose their black color, either going white or creamy and then the cloudy egg White envelops it.

The things that I'm doing:

-Supplementing with repashy vit A every 2 weeks; and calcium plus every feeding which is every 2/3 days. Vitamins are all under 6 months and I put them in the fridge, while only taking small batch outside which will be used for dusting, so minimising the cold and warm temperature for the supplement tubs.

- spring water in canisters, about half filled or a bit less. They lay their eggs just under the water line. I have tried putting Indian oak leaves to condition the water in the canister but that didn't work.

My thoughts:
- based from my reading of threads here about bad eggs, which I've virtually seen every thread lol, good eggs will always develop regardless of the condition. And bad eggs always will go bad even in the best condition. Condition which I mean water is the acceptable type with no high level amount of chlorine for example. Is this correct? I've heard some breeders use rainwater when normally it's polluted, but I think they let them sit for several days before using them for tadpoles.
- I haven't used petri dish as I want them to develop in situ and I'll just drop some omega one flakes. I've read threads that suggests to leave the eggs in the viv until it develops and about to hatch. But mine is not developing at all even inside... 😞
- I'm using still spring water. Is that bad? As for the canister, do I need to remove the water and replace it regularly with 'clean' water when the eggs are laid? Or will they develop even without changing water? I know I mentioned that people have said good eggs will develop regardless.

What am I doing wrong? Is there anything I'm missing or not doing? I thought that leaving the eggs in the canister in the viv is good so that the eggs are not disturbed from movement of transferring, and just transfer when hatched? I don't think there are bugs in my viv that killing the eggs? Or could it simply be that they just haven't figured it out yet?

I've removed the canister for now and doing a dry season for a few weeks to a month and then see what happens. Any suggestion is appreciated. Thank you!

Last edited by Jand1k; 04-17-2020 at 12:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 01:10 PM
Encyclia's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,303
Thanks: 165
Thanked 267 Times in 250 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Sorry you are having this problem :-( I have been there, too. This especially happens to me when the frogs are very young. Also, if there is a nutrient imbalance, this can take quite a while to correct. However, you are doing your supplementation exactly as I would. The fact that it is two females that are having this problem suggests a previous supplementation issue to me. Regardless, your approach is exactly right - you are doing your own research and asking for help. I think this is a situation where you will just need to be patient and see what happens. I am betting that eventually you will get some good eggs by just doing what you are doing. A more remote possibility is that your male is not capable of fertilizing eggs, for one reason or another. That is much less likely, in my opinion, than the supplementation possibility. Don't worry about it, though. My terribilis probably dropped 12 or more clutches before they started to produce for me. They will still drop a bad clutch occasionally when I bring them out of their winter rest period and start them breeding again. And don't get me started on my Pepperi :-) Just stick with it.

Best of luck,

Mark
fishingguy12345 likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 01:37 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Hey, I appreciate that Mark. Yes, I guess they are young. One of the female is around a year old, or just over. The other one is about a year and a half. Like you said, I'm suspecting the male may also have issues in fertilising as he's also young, the same as the youngest female being around a year old.

Thanks for your experience and the time to write your reply. Very much appreciated!
Reply With Quote
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 02:05 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,900
Thanks: 85
Thanked 246 Times in 226 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Is this the 2.2 that are in the 12 x 12 viv? If so, the serious lack of space and the associated stress could easily explain poor breeding outcomes.
Philsuma and fishingguy12345 like this.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 02:27 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socratic Monologue View Post
Is this the 2.2 that are in the 12 x 12 viv? If so, the serious lack of space and the associated stress could easily explain poor breeding outcomes.
Hi yes it is. Yes, I have noted that that's why I started building one 3 weeks or so ago, unfortunately I just couldn't source nor carry much of this work because of the issue going on right now.

I agree, I have also been thinking that the space will be a factor for them to be stressed and thus affect their breeding. But at the same time I know of breeders who have had groups in this size, or found froglets when they were cleaning or rebuilding. Whether they have kept groups there on purpose or just as a temporary solution before selling, I don't know. But that proves to me that there is a possibility that they can breed.

So what I've done now is I just placed some more broms that I'll use for the new viv to this one to create more divide/territory. Any more practical suggestion will be appreciated.

As far as I can see, acknowledging that I have little experience so just basing it from research, is that they're often out and about, hardly any fights from the male, all breed in one canister and sleep in one Brom. They're eating well and the humidity and temperature is always monitored. Also at the moment, I'm being proactive with my fruitflies cultures as I'm scared it'll run out and I can't get some.

Anyway, back to the point. I'm trying what I can do in this current situation with regards successful breeding, just making sure that I'm doing it properly while I'm waiting for my other build which I don't know when it'll start again.
Socratic Monologue likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 03:26 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,900
Thanks: 85
Thanked 246 Times in 226 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jand1k View Post
But that proves to me that there is a possibility that they can breed.
Yes, it is possible. No one would say that group in that viv is ideal, though, and if you are having problems (or just want to aim more toward 'ideal' than 'possible'), then the viv size is a smoking gun.

Animals in general -- I've seen it in everything from fish to farm livestock -- will tolerate all sorts of captive conditions but show their underlying discomfort with failure to breed. That's one reason some of us here are sometimes prone to let perfect be the enemy of marginally acceptable.

I'm glad you have a new viv in the works -- I hope it goes the way you want it to.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 03:52 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Ye, really am frustrated that I'm postponing a lot of things in my family's life including the viv build because of this covid-19.

As for my query about water, is spring water OK? And do I need to replace the water in the canister regularly if eggs are laid in there to keep the water fresh? Looking at the threads talking about water types, seems that everyone had success with spring water, ro, distilled and even tap that had been conditioned/dechlorinated. No particular water was actually guaranteed to increase the chances of survival.... Correct me if I've missed any thread.

If water is fine then I'm just gonna put my finger on these three things: comfortability in regards viv size, vitamins, and age.

Thanks for all the help in this thread and my previous ones haha 😄

Last edited by Jand1k; 04-17-2020 at 03:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 04:08 PM
Encyclia's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,303
Thanks: 165
Thanked 267 Times in 250 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

I don't think the type of water is an issue. I use tap. You also don't need to change it, in my opinion. Just leave the same water in there. However, how much water are you putting in there? My frogs typically don't require much, if any water to lay eggs. Depositing tads is a different story.

I didn't bring up the orientation of the canisters before, either, but what direction are the canisters? Are they horizontal? Vertical? Somewhere in between? If they are diagonal, and you have too much water in them, that could be an issue. The frogs don't need to have water inside the canisters for fertile clutches to be laid. If there is too much water in the canisters and they are laying in that water, the eggs could be drowning. Sorry if you provided this information already and I missed it.

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 05:25 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

My variabilis from the start have always laid eggs under the water line. I have always put no more than half filled canister, tilted at around 45į angle. Reading from threads of people, they said their variabilis and even amazonicas lay under the water line. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have put less water in the past, around 1/4, they laid under the water line and still no development.

The general behaviour is the male would go to the canister, call the ladies, and once they're in the canister with him he'll start moving the water with his hind legs. I'm guess releasing his things in the water ready for hen the female lays the egg after. So he'll do that for a while then leave, and then the female would start laying eggs typically 5-8. It's just so sad that all those eggs have died! Maternity feeling kicking in here lol.

OK, I'll just keep the water the same. But I do replace with fresh water when I throw the bad eggs out obviously. I normally just wash the canister that had bad eggs with hot water and nothing else. Should I wash with soap as to like disinfect it??
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2020, 05:45 PM
Encyclia's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,303
Thanks: 165
Thanked 267 Times in 250 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

You maybe fine, then. I guess it couldn't hurt to give them an option where there is a horizontal canister without any standing water in it just to see if they prefer it and if it makes a difference. Soap wouldn't hurt, just make sure to rinse it well.

Best of luck,

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2020, 11:34 AM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

https://imgur.com/a/MKHRzQa

https://imgur.com/HQU52h5


Hi guys, so the first image is taken on the 20th. As you can see, eggs are all black.

Today, 23rd, it has the same look that I always get. Yesterday night, the white parts started getting visible. Always happens on the 3/4th day.

As was recommended, a horizontal film canister with now water, the small bit of water was just because of water spray.

The past 3 weeks I've been supplementing vit A every 1.1/2 - 2 week.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2020, 01:23 PM
Encyclia's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,303
Thanks: 165
Thanked 267 Times in 250 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Good pictures. Those sure look like infertile eggs to me. Sounds like it's time to play the waiting game. Just keep monitoring their clutches and see if whatever is the problem resolves itself. That's all I know of to try. Anybody else have ideas?

Mark
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2020, 03:00 PM
fishingguy12345's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 881
Thanks: 70
Thanked 56 Times in 56 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

You could also try removing the film canisters, and other egg depositing sites (as many that are easily removable), to discourage breeding activity for a few weeks (along with a lowered misting cycle), and then in a few weeks to a month, put the canisters back in and resume a wet season misting schedule to see if that gets them going.
Take it with a grain of salt, I'm fairly new to this... But it could stand to reason that they're not comfortable breeding right now for whatever reason, whether that's space or supplements or something else. Giving them a break might get them back into a productive cycle
Encyclia likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2020, 03:39 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Thank you for all your suggestions. I'll do those now and test for about a month.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2020, 05:12 PM
Pumilo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 10,376
Thanks: 841
Thanked 1,842 Times in 1,343 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

You are right, for any frogs formerly known as Ventrimaculata, it is not unusual for them to lay their eggs right at the water line.
You are also right in that males deposit their sperm before the female lays her eggs.

Spring water. What brand? What spring are they using? Is it treated spring water, or untreated? How did they treat it, because as spring water, there are no standards or even industry guidelines. What day of the week did they collect it? What season? Was it raining heavily that week, and if so, what may washed into that week's spring water?
You may be getting the idea that I'm not a fan of spring water. I prefer a water that is the same, each and every time you buy or produce it. I would prefer my own tap water to spring water, but then Denver Water produces a very consistently clean water. I prefer RO or distilled.
You said it happened 8 times in a row. That means you are either choosing a consistently bad spring water, or, more likely, is not a water issue. I still don't like spring water.

When you do start having good eggs, be very careful with your proposed method. Hand feeding a film canister is possibly the most risky way to do it. You have a very tiny pool of water you are dumping food into. It is so incredibly easy to foul out such a tiny pool.
When imitators do this, the parents can monitor the pool. They also had the chance to select the pool they use. They may be selecting a pool based on how clean that particular pool is. Perhaps their chosen pool gets hit by the misting nozzle, thus receiving a partial water change every day. Further, that misting could be so gentle in that pool, that the almost undisturbed surface overflows, carrying out the surface film rich in waste.
I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it can be harder to do.

I am all for a bigger vivarium for them. You are also right in that variabilis have been successfully bred, in group settings, in tanks as small as 10 gallons. Back in the day, 10 gallon breeding setups were the norm. Going with an 18 high was considered a mansion for them.
We know better now, and I'm all for bigger, but I don't think that's your problem. No other frogs appear to be messing with the clutch. Your frogs keep on trying, over and over. They seem to be at least somewhat satisfied with their current setup.

If these were my frogs, I would be looking towards my vitamin A. Nothing wrong with feeding every 2 or 3 days, except that I would be wanting to up my vit A, without really reducing my calcium plus. If you only feed every 3 days, they only get 2 dustings in a week. I would make sure they were getting 3 feedings a week, every one dusted. On 2 feeding days they get Repashy Calcium Plus, and on the third, they get Repashy Vitamin A Plus. This will be bumping up their vitamin A up to once per week until you see good eggs. Then, drop back down to a monthly dose of vitamin A.
I would also give them a water source of consistent quality.

Shutting them down for a while may also prove very effective.

There's my 2 cents. Hope you get it figured out. Bad eggs are so disappointing.
__________________
Doug aka Pumilo
The second "i" is silent. It's so silent it's not even there!
Reply With Quote
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-23-2020, 09:53 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Hey Pumilo, I heard you and I appreciate the time taken to write that up. A constructive reply is definitely well taken.

I have been wondering about my water too. I live in the UK, and I get the "spring water" from a store called Lidl. The cheapest one. I have compared it with other branded spring water and the difference seems low. Although I'm not a chemist so I may be wrong. I think I'll give my tap water a try, my landlord have said that he gets it a from a reputable source, but we do get limescale still.

I'll do what you and others have suggested of holding them off for several weeks, and also feed them as you've directed.

Then I'll try again with tap water. I'll have it sit in the container, I'll use dechlorinator, and then put it when needed.

My 2 females are very prolific, definitely as described by many care sheet, every week at least 5 eggs per clutch. So that brings it to at least 10 per week, which is a shame to think I've lost a lot and still am. I don't think any of the frogs are hurting each others eggs and definitely not eating. Not one disappeared since they first laid their clutch. Again, they ALL go to one canister which is funny seeing them all them in there.

I'm sure their new viv when I finish it will help. The only positive I see with this small viv they're currently in is that they can see the fruitflies easier, and they're eating habit is quite good. In fact I'm trying to implement Pavlov's Bell method by tapping on the glass every time I feed and they seem to respond. One breeder I know said also not to get a very big viv as feeding will be problem for ranitomeyas.

Anyways, thanks very much again. Let's see how it goes!

Last edited by Jand1k; 04-23-2020 at 09:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:06 AM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Hey guys!

I think 3 are forming! The only thing I did was take it from the canister in the viv and transferred to a petri dish and put inside one of my fruit fly container (32ml tub) and put wet paper tissue for humidity. I've also just filled the petridish with water enough to go around the side of the eggs but not cover it even though variabilis/amazonicas are known to lay underwater.

https://ibb.co/j8TqqZF

Is there anything I should do now? Like change water to clean it, or remove bad eggs?

Also, as for supplements, should I now go back to 1/per month cycle of vit A? or just continue for a couple more weeks?

Thanks so much for all your help guys!
Also the other viv I'm building is starting again as I managed to get few more items. Only the hygrolon wall is taking time, but I think that it was a bad choice since I won't have a waterfall/water drip feature.....🤔
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20200514_092600_1589446898539.jpg (19.9 KB, 10 views)
Encyclia likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 03:49 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Omaha, NE
Posts: 114
Thanks: 5
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jand1k View Post
Hey guys!

I think 3 are forming! The only thing I did was take it from the canister in the viv and transferred to a petri dish and put inside one of my fruit fly container (32ml tub) and put wet paper tissue for humidity. I've also just filled the petridish with water enough to go around the side of the eggs but not cover it even though variabilis/amazonicas are known to lay underwater.

https://ibb.co/j8TqqZF

Is there anything I should do now? Like change water to clean it, or remove bad eggs?

Also, as for supplements, should I now go back to 1/per month cycle of vit A? or just continue for a couple more weeks?

Thanks so much for all your help guys!
Also the other viv I'm building is starting again as I managed to get few more items. Only the hygrolon wall is taking time, but I think that it was a bad choice since I won't have a waterfall/water drip feature.....🤔
Congrats! I prefer to pull eggs as they go bad.
__________________
Blue Jeans,Leucomelas,Terribilis,Azureus, Paru
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 04:16 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

That is my question.... Why do they go bad if left in the viv? Isn't that the closest to nature than bring put in a petridish/tub? Hmm 🤔 I don't want to assume that they go bad in nature too... Lol
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 04:55 PM
Tijl's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 806
Thanks: 48
Thanked 86 Times in 74 Posts
Default

A viv does not come close to nature.. There are many different possibilities why they get bad or the frogs don't want to care for them.
__________________
Bastimentos,Citronella,Azureus,Hahneli,Patricia,Te rribilis,Escudo,Tumucumaque,Histrionica Bullseye.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 08:58 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tijl View Post
A viv does not come close to nature.. There are many different possibilities why they get bad or the frogs don't want to care for them.
Lol I'm sure you are able enough to comprehend that I'm comparing, that in your house, the closest to being nature-like(e.g. The amazon rainforest where they live) are the vivs. If they are not, to some degree, close to being like-nature then the frogs would die. No? I wasn't saying that it's nearly like nature, far from it.

Hence that is my question, putting the eggs in petridish brings it to a more human environment rather than closer to a nature-like environment. Yet, it seems that they are more likely to survive when we do transfer them. So if you say there are "different possibilities" then list them out.
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 09:39 PM
Tijl's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 806
Thanks: 48
Thanked 86 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Yes, I understand what you are saying but I don't think most of us come even close to nature and its perfect conditions.. 90% of all frogs in captivity live in a vivarium that is not even suitable for them for long time.. hence the low life expectance..

When we pull out the eggs and place them in a petridish, we keep em moist. So we are actualy taking over the dad frogs job. The perti fish itself had not much too do with it.. normaly the frogs chose a leaf with a nice flat surface for eggs.. the dish just mimics this.

So if they don't take care of the eggs, it can have many different reasons. For expamle ; they have no suitable deposition sites in the tank,.. or some species are already raising the most tadpoles they can raise so they ignore the new clutch,.. or it cost them too much energy since th frogs are not in perfect health, or,...
Socratic Monologue likes this.
__________________
Bastimentos,Citronella,Azureus,Hahneli,Patricia,Te rribilis,Escudo,Tumucumaque,Histrionica Bullseye.
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:22 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,900
Thanks: 85
Thanked 246 Times in 226 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jand1k View Post
That is my question.... Why do they go bad if left in the viv? Isn't that the closest to nature than bring put in a petridish/tub? Hmm 🤔 I don't want to assume that they go bad in nature too... Lol
I realize you're making a specific point (about egg laying sites), but you're leaning on idea that 'natural=good' which isn't true; in an argument, it is called "The Naturalistic Fallacy".

We don't try to replicate nature in captive care; that would be silly, with predators and pathogens and drought and floods and volcanic eruptions and territorial aggression and prey that fights back. It would also be impossible, which is I think at the heart of what Tijl is saying (apologies if I'm misinterpreting).

What we do is try to learn from nature, to figure out what conditions our captives have evolved to require, and then we try to simulate those conditions. Sometimes (the present discussion, I think) the most appropriate condition (in this case, for egg care) turns out to be something that isn't very natural but fulfills the animals' needs as best we can -- and does so better than an attempt at an exact imitation of nature would.

This is all kind of an aside to frog care questions, but the Naturalistic Fallacy rears its head here often enough that I think it is worth mentioning.
Encyclia and Fahad like this.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:25 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 127
Thanks: 9
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

A leaf in a rainforest is subject to all kinds of beneficial variables that are difficult or even impossible to reproduce in a vivarium, which relative to nature is a ... bit of a blunt instrument.

Just an opinion based on what Iíve observed in nature.

This is not to say all vivs are bad, of course. Itís just a difference in scale and resolution, so to speak.

Iím sure plenty of eggs are lost in the wild to predation or adverse conditions as well.

Sometimes when you reduce variables you lose out on some kind of counterbalance, other times you reduce *enough* to get some key variables right.

If you have 10 possible conditions replicated out of 100, for argumentís sake, they may be the wrong mix of 10.

If you replicate the 3 most important conditions, you may avoid the imbalance created by 10.

Iím sure there may be a better way to articulate this thought but itís been a long day already.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Socratic Monologue likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 10:27 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 127
Thanks: 9
Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Just read Socratic Monologueís post after hitting Ďsendí on mine. Yeah what he said.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 05-14-2020, 11:04 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Ye, I can see where you're all coming from. If I understand, you're saying: we try to learn from nature, apply the variables/conditions that are "favourable" enough in order to provide suitable care. Is that right?

But then we can also apply care that necessarily isn't "natural", but it's suitable enough to, or do better, than an exact imitation of nature.

But it still leaves me confused, had I left the eggs in the viv in the canister, will those 3 eggs develop the same that they are developing now in the petridish? Because from what I can see, inexperienced that I am, the only difference is that the they've been placed in a petridish. I've tried to control the temp of the petridish/water same as the viv. As far as humidity, I hope its the same because I've put it wet paper towel in the container/tub where the petridish is. But the water is the same. I haven't treated the water. So would they have developed? I guess, I shall perform soem test for the next clutch.

But regarding my question about supplements, any thoughts on that?
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 12:36 AM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,900
Thanks: 85
Thanked 246 Times in 226 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jand1k View Post

But regarding my question about supplements, any thoughts on that?
If it were me, and I thought using Vit A twice a month (that's what you are doing, I think?) were helping, I would continue to do that. The label says max dose is once per week.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 05-15-2020, 01:01 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Ok, I'll continue to do it for maybe a few more weeks. Then I'll go back to once a month.

Thanks for everyone's advice and opinions.
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:46 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

For those that have provided practical advice, thank you. I can now say that it's been 3 weeks that my group has laid clutches with good eggs and developing. Mind you, this is just the early stages, later stages may turn out different, but according to other breeders and the breeder of who I got my thumbnails from have said the same thing: once they have hatched and you continue with the husbandry that you're doing(by not changing anything in extreme e.g. experimenting water types, diet, temperature etc) the tadpoles should have higher rate of developing. The onky thing to be worried is sls which will onky be visible at the end.


I've set some parameters for the parents when they would lay eggs, and not for the tadpoles themselves as I do want to try to keep the same factors/parameters throughout their development. So for those who see this thread can hopefully learn something too or at least try these methods if they're not getting any success. I just want to add that these methods and parameters I've set are not necessarily mine, but belongs to those who have given their advice based on their experience. So credit goes to them as I can see big improvements.

So here are the points/things I did:
- One thing to note is that for eggs that are fertile, they stayed dark, and developed without going moldy or dying later on before hatching. Infertile eggs were turning white on the 2nd/3rd day, so you know that they are bad from the beginning.
- I've used tap water that I've let to sit for 3 days. Our tap water here is pretty good so that's one thing to note in your case. I've still added tap water drops to condition water just incase though. The treated tap water is mixed with a bit of spring water. Ratio would be 1/5 spring water.
- I've taken fertile eggs and put in petri dish, I've left fertile eggs in the canister in the viv, some fertile eggs have dropped in the water cup I've placed beneath the canister. Again, all are developing. Fertile eggs seems to really develop if they are fertile and have their parents supplemented well.
- temperature of the eggs were always around 68 at night and 75 during the day. This is the same as viv temperature.
- regarding what I did with parents supplementation, please see previous posts in this thread by others.

And a final note to those new in the hobby, regarding viv size, don't be like me in thinking that you'll get a small viv for your thumbnails and only have a pair, you will end up getting more and have eggs and tadpoles, and it's addicting! So please get a bigger viv, but not too big that they would struggle with feeding as floor space is too big. Although this is not to say you cannot do something to solve that issue.

So thanks to those who helped and gave their points. The problem I now have is to stop them from laying eggs as these lay clutches in canisters that already have developing eggs. I may need to remove anything with a body of water.

Have fun and take care of your frogs. I'll post some development photos here from time to time.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20200528_131542_1590669823153.jpg (36.9 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20200521_111821_1590669834977.jpg (20.7 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20200528_134429_1590669937177.jpg (21.8 KB, 6 views)
Encyclia and Tijl like this.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jand1k For This Useful Post:
Encyclia (05-28-2020)
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:56 PM
Encyclia's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 2,303
Thanks: 165
Thanked 267 Times in 250 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

This is extremely valuable to come back and give an update with what worked for you and to encourage new folks in the hobby. This kind of post rarely happens but should probably be in every thread where help is requested. Thanks for doing that!

Mark
fishingguy12345 likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #31 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2020, 12:59 PM
fishingguy12345's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 881
Thanks: 70
Thanked 56 Times in 56 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encyclia View Post
This is extremely valuable to come back and give an update with what worked for you and to encourage new folks in the hobby. This kind of post rarely happens but should probably be in every thread where help is requested. Thanks for doing that!



Mark
Agreed!
Thank you for the update. I hope the tadpoles morph into healthy frogs for you
Reply With Quote
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2020, 01:04 PM
Tijl's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 806
Thanks: 48
Thanked 86 Times in 74 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Awesome! Have fun raising the tadpoles!
__________________
Bastimentos,Citronella,Azureus,Hahneli,Patricia,Te rribilis,Escudo,Tumucumaque,Histrionica Bullseye.
Reply With Quote
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2020, 02:31 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Thanks to you all and your opinions, suggestions and invaluable experiences. I wouldn't have a clue where to start without them. I agree that for any new hobbyist, preparing well is vital prior to getting live pets, seeing that I have prepared yet when I got them I quickly realised that I've no clue to what I'm doing. Plus the hobby is always improving, especially with care and nutrition, so no excuse in negligence.

Again, thanks to all here that commented.
Encyclia and Tijl like this.
Reply With Quote
  #34 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2020, 10:53 AM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Here's an update of the egg that was in the canister. It hatched last night and saw the dad transporting this morning. Just placed a small cup on the ground to see if he will put there...and he did.
Reply With Quote
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2020, 12:28 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Is this an example of brood parisitism? He called the female in the cup where he deposited his tad an hour ago. Another male also came to try and do his own business lol. Dad is the one at the top.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2665805/
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20200601_132101_1591014449885.jpg (38.6 KB, 9 views)
Reply With Quote
  #36 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2020, 06:13 PM
Socratic Monologue's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Central WI
Posts: 1,900
Thanks: 85
Thanked 246 Times in 226 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

I don't think so. The second male, if carrying a tad into an occupied phytotelma, would lose that tad to cannibalism. In Ranitomeya parasitism, the dad either deposits a tad in a phytotelma containing unhatched eggs, or entices a female who is not the mom to lay eggs in a phytotelma containing his own tads.

What you're seeing is likely an insufficient number of deposition sites for the number of breeding frogs.
Encyclia and Tijl like this.
__________________
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contain'd.

- Whitman
Reply With Quote
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2020, 07:42 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Ahh! Is that what it is!? Thanks for the info MS. At the moment I really don't want them to breed yet, hence the lack of canister. I just want to see how these turn out first. I've got another canister in the viv but that's got a clutch in it.

I'll try simulate a dry season to see what happens. Thanks again 👍🏼
Reply With Quote
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2020, 08:24 PM
Tijl's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 806
Thanks: 48
Thanked 86 Times in 74 Posts
Default Re: Bad egg clutches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jand1k View Post
Ahh! Is that what it is!? Thanks for the info MS. At the moment I really don't want them to breed yet, hence the lack of canister. I just want to see how these turn out first. I've got another canister in the viv but that's got a clutch in it.

I'll try simulate a dry season to see what happens. Thanks again 👍🏼
Best is to simulate a dry season from november to februari in Europe due to air pressure etc.. If you don't want the clutches tjust row them away or let them dry out.
__________________
Bastimentos,Citronella,Azureus,Hahneli,Patricia,Te rribilis,Escudo,Tumucumaque,Histrionica Bullseye.
Reply With Quote
  #39 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2020, 09:55 PM
Jand1k's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 77
Thanks: 0
Thanked 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Whoah! I don't think I have the guts to throw away the eggs lol. Maybe I can just save money on tadpole food if they eat their own brothers and sisters.... 😢
Reply With Quote
  #40 (permalink)  
Old 06-01-2020, 10:27 PM
Tijl's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 806
Thanks: 48
Thanked 86 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Save money on what? Hikari koi staples cost €7 for 500gr, I've fed over 400tadpoles last year and the bag is more than 2/3 filled.. 😄
__________________
Bastimentos,Citronella,Azureus,Hahneli,Patricia,Te rribilis,Escudo,Tumucumaque,Histrionica Bullseye.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 08:24 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.