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Old 10-04-2006, 07:01 AM
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Default Sad story--that eventually gets to a tad question...

Well, I am so dejected I can hardly write this, but do need some info so won't put it off any longer.

This past Saturday, I returned from MWFF feeling exhilarated and exhausted. My son & his g/f, who had accompanied me, came in for a bit to look over our new purchases and take a peek at my intermedius trio, which had just moved 3 more tads to canisters. Both males were calling robustly and my son remarked that the "come feed this tad" call seemed significantly different from the other calls he'd heard from them...Late that night, after my son & his g/f had left to go back up to college, I noticed 2 snails in the viv--the first in weeks--and removed them.

Sunday morning I began to notice...silence. No calling. I searched the viv, could find no males. Very unusual. By afternoon it was clear that something was out of order. I searched more thoroughly--and concluded, with terror, that the males were not in the viv...Within half an hour of frantic searching I found both dead on the living room floor...

I honestly have no idea how they got out. I am normally quite meticulous about checking frog whereabouts before opening the viv. But the only thing that seems remotely possible is that somehow they got out while I went after the snails...(It was quite late when I did this, I'd not slept well the night before--too much anticipation, I guess--the drive back from Chicago, with all the construction, was exhausting...)

I can't tell you how rotten I feel. I've raised these guys since early July of 2005, and they had just been exhibiting such spectacularly impressive breeding behavior. I'd been lost in the wonder of it all. I was astonished by the males' joint efforts to care for the tads...The silence now is nearly unbearable. I feel so guilty and depressed...

=======

Well, at least I have the female and the tads left. I try not to anthropomorphize, but I find it hard to avoid feeling sorry for her for losing her two companions and suitors. Her behavior does not seem to have changed appreciably EXCEPT--she does not appear to be feeding the tads as before.

Not surprising, I guess--I've read that the calling/luring of the males is an important part of female food-egg deposition. Last night she did deposit 2-3 eggs in the canister of the 2nd oldest tad, but she has been nowhere near the tads today.

Well, now my questions. I have 4 tads in canisters. The first is now 60 days old, not showing legs that I can see, but Bill says they're probably there...the other 3 tads are from a later clutch and are 12, 11, and 9 days post transport...The oldest is clearly eating the ffs that end up in his canister (thanks to Aaron for pointing out in his MWFF talk why some canisters seem to have no flies floating on top!); I've seen the next 2 oldest nibble at ffs but there are still several floating in their canisters. All canisters have a bottom layer of ff parts, detritus, etc.

Can I leave the tads in the viv? If so, should I add food to their canisters? Tonight I did add 3 tadpole bites to the big guy's canister, and they seemed to disappear forthwith.

Any input will be much appreciated.

Very sadly,
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1.1 -- D. pumilio "Man Creek"
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Old 10-04-2006, 07:18 AM
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That's pretty disappointing, but on the bright side (if there is one), female Intermedius are much harder to come by than males, and I'm sure a little searching should find you some replacements. As for the tads, if they seem to be developing fine where they are, I would just leave them be, adding some tad bites or algae to the canisters as you see fit.
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Old 10-04-2006, 11:53 AM
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i wish i had more to offer thn just a sorry i feel for your loss. lost animals are never easy to get over and i know you were really attached to your little guys. it shows in your passion when you type about them.

i wish i could offer advice about your tads. i can say that once i removed the tads from my vent viv, their growth rate increased exponentially. i didnt see feeder eggs, but once or twice, and only in one canister though. now that they are under my care, i know they are getting food on a regular basis. i have no control to this theory though as the three i left in the viv disapeared the day after i removed the four i did. i wonder if they were "hidden" from me since i took the others.

good luck Diane. keep your chin up and enjoy your new purchases.
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Old 10-04-2006, 01:15 PM
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Diane,

I'm sorry to hear about your loss...words are pretty inadequate and certainly no consolation. I'm always extremely paranoid when getting into my intermedius or imitator vivs because of the tendency of the frogs to hang out right at the top. I've taken to drafting a designated spotter to monitor for escapees if I have to do anything extensive in their vivs.

Probably the best advice I can give you is to remove the tads from the viv and raise them the rest of the way yourself. Some of this is practical...it's very easy to foul up the limited volume of water in a film cannister with exogneously added food in a way that feeder eggs and drowned FFs never seem to do. Secondly the female is not likely to be effective in raising that number of tads with feeder eggs.

Part of my rationale is psychological. While hand rearing the tads won't return your males, it will give you the ability to closely monitor their development - something that can be quite enjoyable and give you a sense of completing the task of raising them.

On the other hand, leaving the tads in the viv and allowing drowned FFs and careful addition of tadbites from time to time will work even if the tads take a bit longer to develop.

Once again, sorry to hear about your loss and wishing you the best.

Bill
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Old 10-05-2006, 07:29 AM
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Dane, Landon, and Bill,

Thanks so much for your replies. I really appreciate them.

Dane, you raised another question...While I feel pretty bad for thinking of replacements for my males already, it was an issue that was going to come up sooner or later. Mostly because I was so impressed with the biological imperative shown by the breeding behavior, and it makes me want to provide the female with another mate so she can continue expressing this...and also because it was the presence of a male that seemed to bring her out of her shyness a bit...

I was wondering, though...when I get to that stage, should I expect any problems with introducing an adult male? I assume I should not make any such addition as long as there are tads from the previous group present, right?

Landon, your remarks were very kind and helpful. That's interesting about your vents--I'll be looking for news about the three tads that disappeared. As far as enjoying my new purchases--the only frogs I bought were for my son's friend, so they are up at MSU now. I thought it would be ok to get to MWFF around 10, then go to Aaron's talk...by the time we got to the vendor display the spp I were considering were sold out! But, I am enjoying my new broms and other plants...Right now I have a total of 1 frog--and 4 future frogs, I hope...

Bill, you have a way of summarizing things most helpfully. I go back and forth on pulling the tads. My main hesitation is the fear that I might screw things up...This summer, when my son's frogs were here, he was getting his first tads. The lamasi eggs were pulled and morphed out beautifully. His first leuc tad, ditto. The second leuc--spindly! (You can believe we've been avidly following the spindly-leg threads here...)

Which reminds me of a question I was going to ask while it still applied to my situation, but I guess I might as well ask it now anyway. Do parent-raised tads ever emerge with spindly? I don't remember ever reading anything about this...

I guess, since I can also screw up the adding-food-to-canisters-left-in-the-viv route, I might as well go ahead and take them out...Then I can stop worrying about knocking the canisters off the sides, at least!

Sigh. It's still WAY too quiet in here. I can't believe I let this happen.

Thanks again you guys. Sorry for the long posts.
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:57 AM
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Diane,

It is possible for parent raised tads to come out of the water with leg problems...though that is not common in my experience.

Bill
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:17 AM
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Well, that makes sense under the parents'-nutritional-status theory of spindly...

Today I removed tads 1, 3, and 4 to cups outside the viv. I left tad 2 in the viv as the female had fed him Monday and he still had egg remains available...and guess what? She fed him again tonight. I was so happy to see this--it seems as if this was the only tad she "knew" the whereabouts of. The others had not been egg-fed since the males were lost. I'm thinking I'll leave "Dos" in the viv as long as she's feeding him. Sort of hedging my bets and also appreciating two different tad-rearing methods. Plus I hate to leave the female all alone...

Meanwhile, it is fun to have the tads out where I can watch them more closely.

Question: does color feeding help intermedius colors, and if so, what works best? (I am also watching Shawn's lamasi thread which is talking about color feeding now...)
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Old 10-08-2006, 07:48 AM
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Im so heartbroken to read this I always looked up your posts because I too have 3 intermedius.. I loved hearing about your guys when they laid the first eggs. Ill miss hearing more.

I get paranoid all the time after i open my lid, I check once, twice.... five times after its back on to make sure they are all there... they are fast little guys.

I know for a fact I have 1 calling male, I think the 2 others are male too... Dane was right, the silver lining.. you still have your female..

If you do want to get more.. I had a great experience from the guy I got mine from in Seattle... (Can I list his name?)

Maybe one day when you get some froglets going and some new males we can trade some

I wish you the best of luck, and try not to be so sad... bad things happen, and we cant do anything to go back, only learn.

Shaun
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Old 10-09-2006, 06:58 AM
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Shaun,

Thanks for the kind words! I did not realize how much these compassionate responses from our "cyber community" would help.

Nothing much helps the guilt I feel, though, for being totally responsible for failing these perfect young specimens of phenomenal frogdom. I, too, thought I was always careful...like Bill, I would call my daughter to stand watch if I was working in the viv a lot...in fact, the whole incident continues to mystify me...I did frequently go after snails after lights out, however, as they tend to be nocturnal, and I suppose that's what I did late Saturday (or early Sunday) night, assuming (!) the frogs would be settled in for the night...

Ah, well, glad to hear your intermedius are thriving...they are really super frogs. I'd say you should not give up hope about having a female until you've observed each of them calling...though maybe that wouldn't necessarily happen in an all male situation...no expert, I!

Well, I had a good experience with my vendor, too, who happens to be here in MI...but perhaps we should trade pms on this...

And the possibility of trading down the line will give me something to look forward to! I'm not going to get too confident about these tads, however--I'm one of those who might as well put a target on my head ("lightning, strike here") whenever I get too proud or smug about anything...

Thanks again!
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