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Old 01-21-2006, 10:19 PM
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Default What kinds of darts can raise their own tads?

Topic name pretty much says it all. I know in the wild they obviously all can, but what about in a viv. Are there any frogs that you can just leave the eggs in the viv and them someday you might see a little frog hopping around? Or are viv conditions not suitable enough and you need to take the tads out and raise them yourself?


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Old 01-21-2006, 10:20 PM
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^^^ I would also like to know.
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Old 01-21-2006, 10:42 PM
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All Pumilio are obligatory feeders which means they raise then own young, and technically they only can. ( feed tads unfertilized eggs ). As for other frogs, yes you can leave the eggs in there, alot of time the tads will live inside a brom and feast on anything that dies in there or algea.............
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Old 01-21-2006, 11:16 PM
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If you set up your tank correctly, techinically any dendrobatidae will have its young morph out in the tank. All Dendrobatids care for the eggs and transport the tadpoles to a suitable water source. I've had members of each of the "main groups" of PDFs in the hobby (tinc, thumbnail, eggfeeder, epipedobates) had young successfully morph in tank. You just need the correct water feature for the species.

As for literal care of the tads, meaning feeding, only thumbnails (the "Quiq" species group - fants, imis, lamasi, vents, etc) and eggfeeders (pumilio, histos, etc) will do this. If the appropriate water source is present (depends on the species, some like broms, some don't use broms but rather anything that holds water such as film canisters), and you have a breeding pair, they should deposit their young, and hopefully feed them feeder eggs.

Personal experience - tinc group and epipedobates need a nice puddle to deposit their tads in that will produce enough food for them to eat (detritus and bacteria - if set up right and not overpopulated you don't have to touch the tads at all). I've had truncatus and tricolor do this successfully where I didn't touch the tads in the tank (other than to remove tads to keep the pond from overpopulating, the things breed like rabbits!). I've written a number of posts on how I've set up my ponds to do this.

Never had puddles/ponds in the thumbnail and pumilio tanks - they always had broms and/or water holding containers in their tanks to deposit tads. I occassionally pulled eggs or tads from the imis, but usually just let them be, and pulled out half grown froglets out of the imi and pumilio tanks.
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Old 01-21-2006, 11:24 PM
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So I am guessing a waterfall feature wouldn't be a good idea for tads?

I am planning on keeping Luecs, do you know any requirements for raising their tads?

(Sorry if it seems I am hijaking your thread theman42, just getting people to add info lol)
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Old 01-22-2006, 12:00 AM
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Thanks for the info KeroKero! That's exactly the info I was looking for

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis777
(Sorry if it seems I am hijaking your thread theman42, just getting people to add info lol)
Don't worry no problem. I actually started this thread because one of your recent posts made me start thinking about this. Besides, I have Leucs too so what goes for you goes for me


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Old 01-22-2006, 02:34 AM
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Here is my over simplified way to think of what water features to have in what frog tanks:

PDFs = dripping water into mostly still water puddles

Mantellas = flowing waterfalls and streams

If you are dead set on having a cool waterfall and stream set up (Like MantellaPrince's) then check out the mantellas. They'll love it, and have simlar requirements to darts, and more CBs are becoming available. The PDFs won't be so happy about the tank, so why put them in there? Build the tank to either 1) make yourself happy, 2) make your frogs happy, or 3) make your plants happy, then modify the other factors to acheive that goal.

The leucs (in theory as I haven't bred them) should follow the same route as the tinc group, being that they are part of the tinc group lol. They should deposit their tads in an appropriate pond structure. And by "appropriate pond structure" I mean a mucky puddle with basically no water movement (Mmm mmmmmm detritus!). They don't have to be pretty, don't have to have plants or algae in them (you want detritus and bacteria growing in there, not "clean" gravel bottom and algae).

The water thing is a bit iffy. It depends on your idea of a water fall structure, and the individual species (and sometimes morph) preference. Most of the frogs I've worked with didn't deposit their tadpoles in pools where the water moved much - in the wild these would just be rain filled depressions and the only water movement they'd get is occassional flooding, and that really isn't movement, and sure isn't constant. Some water dripping into a good sized pond is one thing, having the water constantly flowing around is something much better suited to a mantella (which prefers water movement to PDFs' lack of water movement). This isn't to say ALL PDFs are like this, there are some that prefer moving water, just most of them aren't in the hobby so I'm ignoring that bit for right now. There are also those who breed better with moving water in the tank - but again that doesn't mean the water in the pond they are depositing their tads is a lot of moving water (usually small water feature into a good sized pond which means pond water isn't moved much, there are a number of ways to stop the current).

A water drip into the pond I think is a good thing, keeps the water fresh, and if you have an over flow, there is a very slow circulation of water, much like a gradual "flooding" of the pond rather than an "all at once" flooding like a rainstorm would do. The drip I'm talking about is a very low flow rate compared to the pumps a lot of people are putting on their tanks... rather than a waterfall think of it more of drips coming off a drip wall in the back. If fact, I rather like drip walls, they act as another form of a filter, keep your background moist, and give you that little "overflow" in the pond that keeps it in good shape (this is, BTW, the system in the Hidden Life exhibits of NAIB - the frogs and plants love it, as do the tadpoles found in the ponds at the bottom!). Its no dramatic little waterfall, but if you like the little dramatic waterfalls, get mantellas.

Also, something to think about... if you want the tads to be raised in the ponds in the tank, think of them as mini fish tanks. Tadpoles need good water quality, with "clean" water - beware of over feeding tadpoles in the pond. This is why I try and set up the ponds in a way that I don't have to feed the tads (unless the pond becomes overpopulated - and I pull tads rather than feed them) because feeding is the number one water quality destroyer in tads (thats the reason people say they change their tadpole water so much, I'm lazy, I rather set up a system where I dont' have to change the water). "Detritus" and bacteria are plenty of food in the pond, and don't sour the water (in fact the bacteria I'm talking about is "good" bacteria - not only is it yummy in the tummy but it's the stuff that helps with water quality). "Detritus" is basically a mixed compost mixture, mostly broken down leaves - toss a couple oak/wild almond leaves in the pond and they'll be munched on as they break down. As they break down, or go thru the tadpole, a nice sludge layer will develop on the bottom - while not the prettiest thing ever, its good stuff. When the sludge gets too deep in the pond (once or twice a year) I just use a spoon, take some out, and dump it at the base of some of the plants in the tank - fertilizer!


Oooooook. Another really long post. Gonna stop for now.... questions? comments?
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Old 01-22-2006, 03:25 AM
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Ok, so basicaly a mud puddle with decomposing leaves makes a great place for the tads to grow up
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Old 01-22-2006, 03:32 AM
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That's how it works in the wild.
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Old 01-22-2006, 03:35 AM
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So all I need is a place that will hold water, then toss in some leaves, let decompose and make mud, add frogs, frogs get jiggy with it, here comes the tads, and add more leaves for them to munch on?
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Old 01-22-2006, 04:20 AM
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I don't use false bottoms, I just use gravel/LECA layer. The pond is a depression that goes into this layer, below the water line. I soak some oak leaves (I keep them stored dry) in water for a bit to soften them up, then line the pond with them. It takes a long time for them to degrade. As the skeletons rot and/or are eaten and turn mushy, add another leaf or two.
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