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Old 03-11-2011, 09:58 PM
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Default Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Guys we live in England,some of you might have seen our room thread. Anyway before the questions a bit of background: we are big on not wasting stuff ie recycling,we have several compost bins 2 of which are used daily,we have been organic for well erm lets say 15 years,probably more one forgets over time, one of our bins is absolutely rammed with springtails,and i mean an unbeleivable amount,eventhough its just spring here and we are still getting frosts. In a few seconds i can harvest more springs than all our cultures put together, ha ha and we have worked hard for those.
But,we have mice and occasional rats that might use these heaps, ,and also a cool little phib population,not that we have many native amphibians here, but, most inhabit our garden,wouldn't have it any other way!!
So can i use these springs to feed my darts?
Rats and mice carry diseases ie selmonella,leptospirosis, are dartfrogs susecptable to these pathogens or does there natural imune system protect them against these?
Leptospiosis can survive in damp,i can't remember how long,so could conceivably transferred to a new culture...am i correct in thinking this?
We all start with bought in cultures any of which could conceivably be contaminated by pathogens such as the above,so there is always a concearn,am i being over cautious because man has always had problems with these rodents?
As always your thoughts and knowledge are greatfully recieved,thanks in advance
Stu
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

There are very, very few diseases that are transmittable between species so I highly doubt that the rats will have anything that your frogs can catch (my mother is a vet). If you are not using any chemicals in the compost it should be fine to feed them to your frogs is what I would recommend is removing them from the outside compost and quarantine them in some sterile cultures for a few days then feed them to the frogs
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Off the top of my head (both from the native amphibians and possible other vectors as the rodents can track other agents into the piles)
Rhabdius lungworms
salmonella
chytrid
coccidia
hookworm
other nematodes
iridovirus
tapeworms (if a infected arthropod is fed to the frogs)

and if you put scraps that contacted your frogs into the compost bins the local population is also at risk.

It all depends on what you consider the level of risk to your frogs... and your tolerance for risk to the local populations.

Ed
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:54 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

I would say mites and Chitrid would be the biggest risks.
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:01 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

I donít know about the Chytridiomycota but mites are very species specific like a mouse mite will not survive on a cat and a scale mite will not survive on a mouse and so on, so the mites will probably die if they do get in there at all but I am not familiar Chytridiomycota that is a fungus and I havenít done much reading on it I would say quarantine, quarantine, quarantine  but thatís just my opinion
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Old 03-12-2011, 08:52 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivexx View Post
There are very, very few diseases that are transmittable between species so I highly doubt that the rats will have anything that your frogs can catch (my mother is a vet). If you are not using any chemicals in the compost it should be fine to feed them to your frogs is what I would recommend is removing them from the outside compost and quarantine them in some sterile cultures for a few days then feed them to the frogs
First thanks for the reply,would your mum be able to tell me whether selmonella is species specific,what do recommened as a sterile quarantine media?
no chemicals here ,other than what is brought in,say 90 plus percent of what we eat is homegrown organic,but chemicals are everywhere in our society,as yours so could not be 100%.
Plus I am totally a beginner,(with say 6/7 years of keeping phibs as a child which i am inclined to discount),that said I have kept other forms of livestock(specifically birds ) for many years,and am using this as a basis for our dart endevours,of course with caveats.
My other question, is not chytrid a non species specific disease? and that risk i hope to be able to assess soon.
very greatful for your imput
Stu
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:36 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
Off the top of my head (both from the native amphibians and possible other vectors as the rodents can track other agents into the piles)
Rhabdius lungworms
salmonella
chytrid
coccidia
hookworm
other nematodes
iridovirus
tapeworms (if a infected arthropod is fed to the frogs)

and if you put scraps that contacted your frogs into the compost bins the local population is also at risk.

It all depends on what you consider the level of risk to your frogs... and your tolerance for risk to the local populations.

Ed
Ed i have read some of your posts am very greatful for your reply,i would be humbled if you could spare more of your valuble time answering more of my beginners questions,
The first must relate to our natives,it is imperative that i do not,transmit anything to them,we have a highly protected and rare newt breeding at least within a few hundred yards of our house,possibly much much nearer,what should be my modus operandi to protect them from my dartroom endevours?
Ed i consider myself an absolute beginner to dart frogs,(as before i have kept and bred a vast array of poutry ducks geese wildfowl pheasants) which i only mention as it gives me a tiny insight in to a risk assessment,how do i assess these risks?
Chytrid i am hoping i will be able to assess,just a maybe ,so if i can gain that knowledge,that will not be a worry,so let us deal with,worms. With my birds a routine worming programme was what i considered to be the cornerstone of my welfare programme,is this appicable to our beloved darts if so how do i implement this,and what worms will say drugs such as panacur(i am sure you will recomend better) be effective against.
again i have had rubs with coccidia(birds sorry mate i know but its all i have for knowledge, that, and that given by my homework) i was always was lead to beleive it was species specific,be that as it may, whats important here is, is there an available coocidostat for darts? and again how should this be used? ie do we let them get a low level challenge and then treat,can i see and smell this like my other charges?
Finally how do i deal with selmonella?
Ed sorry to ask so so much,but I/we really want to to the best we possibly can for our frogs,we don't have much but all we have will go into this,when i was little there was no one to ask,no vets no advice nothing,and i we also care deeply about our natives,ahh man you understand
Stu
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Old 03-12-2011, 09:57 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumilo View Post
I would say mites and Chitrid would be the biggest risks.
Hello Doug hope you are well,thanks for the reply and the help before very greatful,i know mate more questions,lets discount the chytrid just for the moment(see above).
There is no way i could possibly id mites in my heap but they are there,so my homework tells me i can feed mites to our frogs, but that our say flie cultures can be trashed by them,(we have already had to deal with this,as our first 2 ff cultures came rammed with them,lol good start for a novice with no frogs because we were able to learn without any frogs to worry about,this was last summer,we managed to overcome with the hydei but not the mels,next bought in culture was the same,3rd mel starter and finally we have it i think). you can see why i want to use stuff fron here just from that!!!!
So the big question is are the mites a danger to the frogs or just to our cultures?
wow i am going to bed with a headache tonight
THANKYOU guys
Stu
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Old 03-12-2011, 11:37 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

I was thinking the risk to your cultures.
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:44 AM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu&shaz View Post

The first must relate to our natives,it is imperative that i do not,transmit anything to them,we have a highly protected and rare newt breeding at least within a few hundred yards of our house,possibly much much nearer,what should be my modus operandi to protect them from my dartroom endevours?
The best practice suggestions are to double bag and dispose of anything solid from the frog tanks into the appropriate waste stream. Liquids can be collected in a bucket and then bleached and not discarded until the water clears (as this shows the bleach has killed anything that could risk the local amphibians.). Once you are ready to dispose of the water, it can be dechlorinated and poured down the drain (or flushed).

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu&shaz View Post
Chytrid i am hoping i will be able to assess,just a maybe ,so if i can gain that knowledge,that will not be a worry,so let us deal with,worms. With my birds a routine worming programme was what i considered to be the cornerstone of my welfare programme,is this appicable to our beloved darts if so how do i implement this,and what worms will say drugs such as panacur(i am sure you will recomend better) be effective against.
Random or prophylactic treatments are becoming less recommeded (depending on the vet in question). I suggest reading this post by Dr. Wright one of the authors/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry.. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...tml#post298624
I am not a vet and I do not like making treatmet regimen suggestions.. instead I suggest looking for a vet who is willing to work with you. You may also want to invest in a copy of Kevin's book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu&shaz View Post
again i have had rubs with coccidia(birds sorry mate i know but its all i have for knowledge, that, and that given by my homework) i was always was lead to beleive it was species specific,be that as it may, whats important here is, is there an available coocidostat for darts? and again how should this be used? ie do we let them get a low level challenge and then treat,can i see and smell this like my other charges?
There are many coccidia that also infect amphibians and they routinely cross infect genera of amphibians so your local amphibians can potentially infect your collection. Your best bet is to get routine fecal checks to see if they are shedding and discuss it with your vet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stu&shaz View Post
Finally how do i deal with selmonella?
There are many different strains of salmonella and normally salmonella is a normal part of the gut flora/fauna of the frog's digestive tract. On occasion, you can get issues with the transmission of a different strain.

As I noted, there are potential risks for the frogs, it all depends on your tolerance for risk for the frogs.

Ed
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

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Originally Posted by Pumilo View Post
I was thinking the risk to your cultures.
Gotcha mate thanks
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Old 03-14-2011, 09:35 PM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed View Post
The best practice suggestions are to double bag and dispose of anything solid from the frog tanks into the appropriate waste stream. Liquids can be collected in a bucket and then bleached and not discarded until the water clears (as this shows the bleach has killed anything that could risk the local amphibians.). Once you are ready to dispose of the water, it can be dechlorinated and poured down the drain (or flushed).



Random or prophylactic treatments are becoming less recommeded (depending on the vet in question). I suggest reading this post by Dr. Wright one of the authors/editors of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry.. http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/gen...tml#post298624
I am not a vet and I do not like making treatmet regimen suggestions.. instead I suggest looking for a vet who is willing to work with you. You may also want to invest in a copy of Kevin's book.



There are many coccidia that also infect amphibians and they routinely cross infect genera of amphibians so your local amphibians can potentially infect your collection. Your best bet is to get routine fecal checks to see if they are shedding and discuss it with your vet.



There are many different strains of salmonella and normally salmonella is a normal part of the gut flora/fauna of the frog's digestive tract. On occasion, you can get issues with the transmission of a different strain.

As I noted, there are potential risks for the frogs, it all depends on your tolerance for risk for the frogs.

Ed
Deeply appreciated Ed,sorry to have been so long in thanking ...trying to do too much,will read the link throughly,its about time i bought a new book too all my frog books are starting to fall to bits as i try to get my head round this
Thanks Stu
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:18 AM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

Sorry I haven't been on in a while ill ask my mom if she is familiar with it she used to be an er nurse too do she might know as for media you can use coco substrate and bake it make sure then add some food for the spring tails after
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Old 03-19-2011, 03:22 AM
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Default Re: Compost bin Springtails...what are the risks

I know reptiles, amphibians, fish and chicken can cary it but I don't know if they are the same strain or if they are different variations that's a good question
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